10-man Blues steal the points in late drama

Need the three points here to keep ground with the many teams around us on 30 points, still feel two points thrown away last week, but water under the bridge now, and hopefully lessons learnt by those who contributed to it.

I don't understand this whole "captains" thing. I know Barca do it but I was always warned about "too many chiefs and not enough Indians." How can you have a group of 11 players and half of them are "captains." Is there some kind of ranking within the group of captains or is it a meaningless title to flatter egos like corporations that have hundreds of "vice presidents" in mid to lower levels?

It looks like Carlo is gambling on out-footballing them because that midfield won't out-muscle them.

1. Coleman
2. Baines
3. Sigurdsson
4. Digne

Whoever the highest ranking player on the pitch is gets the armband. With neither Coleman nor Baines starting, that means Sigurdsson. Ancelotti clearly had no interest in changing things upon arrival.

IMO MF has been our problem for years.

I wonder if that's a 4-5-1. Terry Venables used to say ‘if you can't beat them in midfield, you have to outnumber them'. I suspect that's what he's doing.

Other observations:

He likes Walcott.

He likes Sigurdsson.

He doesn't like Davies.

To my mind, Davies is the only one of our currently available midfielders for whom the jury is still out, the rest definitely don't have a long term future at Everton for one reason or another. Very strange.

Just goes to show. It can happen to anybody, at any time.

Two very contrasting teams. Watford combative and pressing when we are on the ball, and getting everybody behind the ball when we are in possession, waiting for us to cough up the ball to launch their counters.

We're looking to pass it through them. OK at times, but only to the edge of the area where it all broke down.

Watford's tactics looked to be working for them up to 42 minutes. Their first goal was very good. A great crossfield pass, superbly picked out of the air by Deulofeo. He doesn't do that, there is no goal.

Sidibe and Walcott needed to then be stronger against him, but weren't, and once he plays in Masina it was game over.

There is nothing you can say in defence of Delph for their second. He totally exposes the defence with a dreadful missed pass. Nobody else is culpable in that.

Then...whadya know? Two good corners. Good battling for the first. A clean as you like header for the second.

The two Mina goals completely changes the teams' respective half-time chats. It SHOULD deflate Watford and fill our sails.

Let's see what unfolds.

I resisted temptation to post, before the game had ended, bet a few posters wish they had done the same.

Makes up for the Newcastle farce and a well earned 3 points.

Will do for me.

Anybody recall the last league game we won after conceding not just the first goal, but from going two down?

AND away from home.

Delph's foul for his 2nd yellow was stupid, but did it really merit a card AND expulsion given some of the tackles the ref let go in the game with no card?

Carlo clearly bunkered down to secure the minimum of a draw rather than a loss. Given what happened last time out v Newcastle it was doubly sweet to end both halves with the goals we did.

XI v XI I thought we looked good for a win in that 2nd half, but to snatch it playing with 10 men for the last 25 minutes of the game was sweet-sweet-sweet.

Great turnover by Digne deep in our own half. Great running and lay-off for Kean. Great support from both Kean and Walcott to be up there. Kean, scuffed shot or intended pass, who cares?

Walcott HAD to finish that or he would have been crucified. How many bad balls did he overhit or misplace in extremely promising positions?

The table continues to look better and better.

It's been at least a couple of seasons since winning after conceding the first goal as we never achieved it on Silva's watch.

It's about developing momentum, the scruffiness of the game doesn't matter. Fantastic, we can all enjoy the weekend.

Funny old league this season. By my standards, we've been mediocre at very best, but then we're still in the mix for Europa League football. And the Shite - a very good team, but nothing remarkable compared to recent champions really - are 22 points clear.

Still baffled by some of the starters and the subs.. but who cares, some luck went our way for a change.

How Walcott get's paid to play football is beyond me.

Thought Pawson seemed determined to ruin our day. What is it with referees and us. When was the last time a RS player got booked for any of the tackles we put in today.

Any way great win hopefully our luck is turning now the belief is returning.

He has always had a swagger and a gob on him!

On one of those filler video things the club does now and then with a player answering fans' questions, recently Dominic was answering. One question was:

'Which player should go on Love Island?'

Dominic didn't hesitate. 'Mason Holgate. 100%. No question!'

That perhaps tells you Mason sees himself as a bit of a 'cock-of-the-north' (in the nicest possible sense).

He is one of the few real narks we have in the team. An England call-up must seriously be on the cards for not only the way he defends, but also how he carries it out of defence and passes through lines.

Does it always come off? No. But the frequency of when it does is certainly increasing.

A real gem of a player.

That must count as the last league game we came back to win after conceding the first goal, too.

We certainly didn't do it under Silva and I can't recall doing it under Allardyce. That was the late autumn of the 2017-18 season, nearly two and a half seasons ago.

I applaud the character to bounce back there today away from home and with ten men, the in-game management I so often talk about was impressive and I think the players maybe just maybe showed today that Ancelotti is having the impact?

A great great win, it's been a right tough fixture for this team in recent years so to win from two down, great credit.

Let's build some momentum next week and really put the pressure on though.

Off to the bookies in the morning !

Great subs today / credit were it's due as I have been very critical of Ancelotti's subs against Brighton and Newcastle. Kean ran and ran, Keane won everything when he came in and even Schnedierlin was competent. We looked a real threat even with ten men.

Made up, still points, money and most importantly Europe to play for. By way of side note, don't understand any Evertonian not being desperate for us to get into Europa League, I would be made up.

The saving grace was Delph getting sent off because it kept the second biggest coward out on the pitch, with only Iwobi looking more interested in staying out of trouble than Walcott?

I'm delighted for the travelling blue army and I'm delighted for Holgate, Digne, Richarlison because these three have got a bit of fight, and I'm delighted with the tactical response once Delph went, because although it might have seemed straightforward, it was definitely more of a managers decision rather than that of a coach?

Also well done to Michael Keane because he played on the front foot and looked like he wanted to defend and well done to Moise Kean for that terrific little assist at the end!

Just checked. Swansea did score first in that one before we came back to win 3-1. December 18, 2017 - more than two years ago then.

Moise Kean: shot or pass?

Many an angle it appears like an intended pass, but one from behind the goal appears it was scuffed. Hard to say whether it was a scuffed shot or a scuffed pass.

The end result is all that matters, anyway!

Pity we lost Delph shortly after Moise came on. He showed glimpses that with a full XI he could have posed them some problems.

Good strong hold-up play in their corner at the death. Also liked how he threw the ball for our throw-in into the stands to eat up a bit more time! That's what savvy professionals do.

Holgate was absolutely outstanding. Arguably our best centreback AND defensive midfielder at the moment. It's also worth noting that Watford, in spite of looking dangerous at times, barely had a chance of note after their second goal.

"Football is so unpredictable. We were looking to go home with a draw because we had 10 men but we did a fantastic counter-attack.

"Honestly, we didn't deserve to equalise in the first half but I think with what happened last week and this week we deserved to win.

"The spirit is really good. We had fantastic support from our fans. We are really happy for them because to win these away games is really good for our confidence."

On Fabian Delph's red card: "I think it was the wrong decision by the referee. I think we were lucky to score at the end. We have to stay focused, improve and be confident because this squad has good quality."

Funny thing was despite what sounded like an awful first half, with messers Delph, Walcot, Richarlison coping the displeasure of the commentators repeatedly, I felt we would win it. As often is the way sometimes, its the players who frankly were poor that ended up winning the game.

Pleased for the team, still a long way short of being good, but we all have to start somewhere! COYB

But it is about time we started scoring scratty goals, I will take all 3 of ours any time.

Yellow card or not, Delph's tackle to give away a free kick was yet another brainless moment by him. He's being shown up, not having great players alongside him.

But overall, congratulations to the 10-men, showing great resilience to get the 3 points. Absolutely made up for those who travelled.

Spend the afternoon cussing Walcott and then he pops up to slot away a beaut of a winner.

Still ruing the 2 points dropped against Newcastle which would have put us 5th briefly today.

Enjoying being an Evertonian, and enjoying the evening now with a bottle of Bordeaux.

Funny ol' game isn't it.

He won the ball TWICE!

Again another clear example that this is used against rather than for Everton Football Club.

Anyway we won so VAR can kiss my feckin' v-arse!

Quite right, Jim @85. Pawson was dreadful. I think that the standard of refereeing is falling quite rapidly in the Premier League.

Robert #77, I love your rose-colored fantasy, but that's all it is. Kean ran 70 yards never looking over his shoulder -- he had no idea Theo was there. And he clearly swung his foot at the ball, just as any striker would do in that situation. It was a shot, a scuffed shot, and nothing but a shot.

Peter #80, spot on. Whether or not Pawson got it wrong, Delph was an absolute idiot to put in a pointless challenge on a player facing the sideline -- even if he got the ball, he was just going to send it into touch for a throw-in. No reason in the world for that.

But then again, I don't think we win this game with 11.

And yet for all that, we are just 3 points off 5th placed Blades and 2 points adrift of United and Wolves in 6th and 7th, having played an equal amount of games.

Again, I think it is fair to say that too many players have not played up to scratch and that eventually, they will be replaced with more fit-for-purpose players Carlo wants.

And yet, even given all that, the Italian is getting a tune out of these underperforming players and putting points on the board.

Indeed, even though it is a very narrow database to draw on, with 14 points from 7 league games he is averaging 2 points a game.

To put that into perspective, in the entire history of the PL era, Roberto Martinez in his record-breaking 1st season when we won the most points in a PL campaign averaged 1.89 points a game.

By further comparison, our average points-per-game ratio in the 28 seasons of the PL is 1.37.

In their whole term as Everton managers, this is the average points return per game of full-time managers dating back to Moyes:

Moyes 1.5 points per game exactly
Martinez 1.44
Koeman 1.47
Allardyce 1.42
Silva (worst of the lot) 1.28
Carlo 2.0 - a full half a point per game better than the next best. Over a full season, that adds up to 19 extra points.

Early days, but good signs.

Mina though!!!!

Schneiderlin only deserves a mention as the most useless player again.

A few myths busted today.

Take a look at the current form table. The 'fraud' has us 3rd, behind Them & City.

Far from perfect. Inarguably promising.

The rest are complete average bordering on arse. It says it all that a loss today would have seen us dragged closer to a relegation fight yet we end up being 3 points off 5th & Europa.

The self-proclaimed best league in the world is indeed not.

For me this result is massive and should install belief and resilience in the squad.

Who knows, if Delph,, had stayed on what would have happened. For me we were better without him, and more cohesive and direct as a unit.

Let's not get carried away, but a very rare Saturday night treat, to celebrate an away win, and against the odds.

Now to beat Palace.

We won and played terribly, I mean we were woeful.
In a microcosm was Mina, Deeney ruined him in the first half yet big Yerry scores twice?! His attempt to head the ball for the first goal was clownesque. He's better than Keane but he cannot judge the flight of a ball to save his skin.

The basics evaded Sigurdsson, Walcott, Schneiderlin and special outrage is reserved for Delph. I'll tell you now, Walcott's goal was an attempted cross! 😆

The highlights were Holgate, Kean, and Richarlison. Holgate is improving fast and standing out in an average squad. He could open his body out more and be deeper playing LCB, atm it stops him getting the ball left to Digne. Ultimately we buy a left side centre back. It took him until the 45th min to slide a sweet pass inside to Digne. Richarlison was nowhere and yet decided the game, just like Newcastle away, Kean's hassling to start it all off was a sign of massive encouragement.

Superb to erase the pain of the Newcastle game and see it out. Rarely have I seen us play that poorly and win in such euphoric circumstances.

I word on Ancelotti, never too high in victory nor too low in defeat. I've drunk a whole case of cool aid and totally onboard.

Up the spawny toffees.

If anybody had told us in August that on 1 February we'd be three points ahead of Arsenal, we'd have figured on being in the top 4.

If anybody had told us in August that on 1 February we'd be 16 points behind Leicester and even 3 back of Sheffield, we'd have figured on being in the relegation zone.

Strange season indeed.

The big takeaway from this is that even at 0-2, there was no sign of the heads going down as they always seemed to under Silva. We're on an upward curve. There are signs that between Carlo and Duncan, they're finally instilling some self-belief in this bunch.

On the downside, Delph hoofs the ball back to Newcastle last week and stupidly dives into a challenge today when on a yellow. So much for being our experienced level-headed leader.

Roll on Palace.

When you think where we were and how we were playing before Ferguson stepped up the transformation with the same group of players has been excellent.

Ancelotti might not be everyone's favourite and it is obvious there are a number of people just desperate for him to slip up and fail, however, credit where it is due, he picks his team, sets it up and will change things calmly when needed.

I think he is going to give everyone a bit of a chance before the season ends. Try different things and see how the players react. At the end of the season he will do his thing and get rid of those who he thinks can't or won't play his way.

Great post... that's probably why we think the premier league is the best in the world. Completely unpredictable... well this year anyway. At 2-0 down I was already looking at the relegation zone, then an hour later hoping wolves and manure draw as we battle them for Europe!

I'd swap Mina & Holgate around, Mina is better than Holgate at transferring to Digne.
One of the many reasons Delph was shite was he often was getting the ball back to goal from Holgate, sadly it became very predictable and he got pressed. If Holgate had more variety he'd help him out a lot.

However I'm actually very excited if we can ever get a midfield worth it's salt because we have forwards who look like they will score.

I wanted a top class team manager but to have one that's also lucky could be the difference between us being good and very good, winning plaudits or winning trophies.

Happy for Mina. Walcotts best contribution. He didn't have to think. Just run fast and hit the target. Still lots of work to do.

Now, all he has to do is widen his tunnel vision. It was even noted on the Forum this morning that every pass he made for quite a while was going to the right -- you're correct, he wasn't even looking at Digne, let alone connecting with him. But despite that, and a couple of mistakes today, he really has improved his distribution a whole lot.

Pickford has saved one of the last five on target. His overall record in the Premier League is similarly poor. You can't challenge for honours with a keeper like him.

If we could buy an established left side center back, I think he'd improve quickly. Improve his anticipation he's going to get the ball and widen out his position to face the attacking right hand corner flag will give the team options.

But then again he and Luca might have beef!!!

That's the best of the season far.

He's starting, crucially, to become self-possessed. That's the step he needed to take. If he has luck and keeps his concentration, I think he will be a great defender.

Also, your comment on VAR I'm not sure you're right. Whilst video assistant can only check for possible red, handball and penalty, I believe the referee has ability to go look at the pitch side monitor for assistance if he chooses. Happy to be corrected but my view is again referee made an error, let Watford players get in his ear, was obvious Watford player faking it to get the player booked and sent off.

All in all both the Referee and linemen let their emotions get the better of them and I think they should be called out when they are highly paid professionals in our league. Disgraceful in my view.

When it came to retaining possession in midfield and providing the correct weighted pass going forward, they repeatedly failed to deliver. When Everton where showing signs of initiative it was these players who consistently caused the loss on momentum, by plain poor play and poor technical ablity. They consistently failed to develop any forward pass for forwards to run on to.

The one area that Everton have improved on is the quality of the ball delivered into the penalty area, as a result I suspect of practise at Finch Farm during the break.

Probably because of Delph stupid red card, both himself and Walcott avoided substitution. Lucky enough Walcott got a goal, and I blatantly say, ' with Keans assist'.

How's he got the taste, hopefully, plenty more to come.

The Delph second yellow was disgraceful too. Nothing about that challenge warranted anything more than a free kick.

For me he's propelled himself as top shithouse above Walcott & Schneiderlin.

Holgate was first played against Lincoln City in the League Cup, where he put a performance on distribution that Mina and Keane could never produce. He then performed in the next rounds of the League Cup, scoring in the 72 min against Watford. He continued against Leicester putting in a equally consistent performance.

I was so glad when injuries allowed him into the first team in the Premership and he started to come to everybody's attention for the great player he was. His cameo in midfield against Man United, a injury fill in, really showed his all round ability.

He is better than Mina / Kean and will leave Stones in his shadows in the not too distant future.

MOTM and will be in more games than not.

As for Delph's second yellow..harsh, but it was a tackle from behind and reckless. Idiotic.

To each his own. I am just delighted that we won and I am not in the mood to be critical of any Evertonian whether they agree with me or not. We are by no means THERE but there are more silver linings than there are clouds.

Nah, Sidebe was good. He actually defended well for a change. Deulofeu causes most teams problems. Sidebe kept him quiet and put some good balls into the box.

I was wondering why Carlo hadn't subbed him but the bad refereeing decision got him out of the picture. The other players pulled together well to record a well earned 3 points!

I didn't think there was any way back after a bit of Gerry magic and the Delph mistake.

Walcott who I thought was hopeless all afternoon turned out to be the hero.

Mina was my MOTM. 2 goals and kept Deeney reasonably quiet.

Holgate and Maguire should anchor England's defence.

That said, it was only Watford, miles off a team close to our Kenwright delusional 'istory.

And it wouldn't be me, would it, if I didn't slate the pernicious hand of that self-serving charlatan Kenwright in being, still, any part of our great club.

Not that Moshiri now fills me with hope though, sadly.

Peter Warren, the ref was definitely wrong and the Watford players were definitely acting/lobbying. But that's still no excuse for a veteran player to even put himself in that position. Watch Delph immediately hold his head when the whistle first blows, even before the card. He KNEW he'd screwed up. (Not that I'm sorry, however -- as others have said, I don't think we would have won if it weren't for that red.)

Eric, thanks again for the good wishes.

You can see progress on the field, but we really do have some poor players, with Walcott near the top of the list.

How can a Premier League player be so pathetic in producing an end product ?
Yes, he got the goal, but he is so poor, I don't care.
He should never play for the first team again he's absolute rubbish.

Seen Christian Benteke recently?

‘ the ref was definitely wrong and the Watford players were definitely acting/lobbying. But that's still no excuse for a veteran player to even put himself in that position.'

I've got to disagree with you there, Mike. He hasn't done anything silly that warranted even a suggestion of a second yellow card. If getting a yellow card means you can have no further physical contact with anyone then players will have to be withdrawn immediately after going in the book.

We all know that a poor tackle in the first 5 minutes is much less likely to be met with a booking than one made later in the game. There are clearly factors other than the direct incident that go through the referee's head before he makes a decision. When the card you are about to dish out is going to result in the player being sent off, you had better be damn sure that it is warranted. It clearly wasn't and I don't think Delph should be blamed on the slightest.

Until today most headed attempts at goal in the premier league this season 18, without scoring.

Not in the top 40 defenders this season for winning aerial balls.
Dead easy to say he wins 4 or 5 headers, but they are often only a fraction of the duels he's faced. All to often they are not good headers too.

I will cede he has improved this season, however Keane's demise has exaggerated his performances.

He simply cannot time a header, he's gotten free in the box numerous times this season under little duress and blazed over or wide.

At least one of your centre backs should be excellent in the air. For his size and leap, he's extremely disappointing. When his partner is the guy who cleans up behind him he should be dominating his centre forward. Deeney has him on toast today, too tight and unable to win the ball without going over his man. He conceded several unnecessary free kicks.

Not my cup of tea

Carlo has got them playing on a spiritual level.

I was doing laps with my thoughts on Delph. He made some good runs through the middle but some seriously bad passes and possession losses.

What I really want to know though are more interest based.

Firstly, I'd love to know which club is at the top of the "if you're on a scoring drought you can break it against us" table, because if it isn't Everton I'd be very surprised.

Secondly, how many times has it transpired that a team has had two matches in a row that contained a centre-half scoring an injury time brace? Even more interesting, how many times has that occurred to make a scoreline 2-2?

The away supporters are just priceless. Makes me thank God I'm alive to see such unbridled joy and passion.

Link

10:29

This is the sort of thing I have become used to over the past 5 years - except it has always been the opposition doing it to US.

Why did Ancelloti take DCL off instead of Walcott? Even the commentators were saying how poor he had been. Perhaps it is because Walcott is as fit as a fiddle, has pace, and can last 90 minutes.

I have been asking myself for several season now how come other teams could “find a way to win” when for us it was we could “find a way to loose.”

Ancelloti in his Pre match presser - “the easiest way to score is on a counter attack.”

Perhaps times really are changing.

Up the Blues!!!

The quality of play was as poor as it was away to West Ham in the first half, but Ancelotti (and Duncan) have show the ability to get results from a poorly performing and unbalanced team and squad. If we hadn't blown away two points so comically against Newcastle we would be in 6th place. This summer is again going to be about wholesale clearing house - there are so many players who we need to move on - Niasse, Sandro, Martina, Bolasie, Besic, Sigurddson, Schneiderlin, Walcott, maybe Keane and Delph. But I actually think we finally have the right DoF and manager to do it.

Firstly in the quality of the ball into the penalty area at set pieces.

Secondly clearing Ever tons in the later stages of the game.

Thirdly forward positioning on a counter attack.

Last, but not lest Pickfords composure in goal.

Ancelotti can't be happy with the play and effort of the midfield trio of Sigurdsson, Walcott and Delph. Schneiderlin did himself no favours with his cameo performance, which was in the same vein as the others.

Yerry Mina, after his first goal around 45:50. I love this man. He pokes it home, down 2-1 after his goal, and what does he do?

He picks the ball up out of the net and races back for the kickoff. His mindset is a winner's mindset - we need another goal before half, we have to equalize.

God knows we need more of that!

The next thing I notice? A team.

The second goal when they miraculously equalize before half, almost every single outfield player goes into the proverbial sports group hug.

These guys get along. There's no prima donnas, no Johny Big Britches, they just all pull for one another.

I don't know about anyone out there in TW-land, but I'm beginning to love this squad under Carlo. The good, and the ugly Delph / Sidibe axis. They're all on board. The young kids, the veterans at the ready, the ugly wart players, the motley crew.

And speaking of Sidibe, I don't rate him at all. But here's a guy who clapped the fans after the shite reserve nightmare extravaganza. And he celebrated like it was 1999 after our goals today. He's exhibiting Blue class. I think Blue has touched him, so if we sign him, I think I should stop being so hard on the guy.

Note to self...

Still think he's an overrated footballer, but it might be time to get behind him?

Mina's fundamental weakness, ironically enough, is heading -- he wins everything in the air but often has no idea where it's going.

Look past the awkwardness. Mina is a footballer.

The Seppos.

The Yanks.

The 'Mericans.

I'll say this. We can spot an athlete.

When Mike Gaynes and I agree on players, usually we're on to something.

Mina is a great footballer at his position. Not good. Great.

He (Holgate) is certainly benefitting from an extended run in the first team, and up to now has rarely put a foot wrong, rather showing maturity beyond his age and making cool-headed clearances and interceptions that his senior team mates are slower to react to.

He leads us in tackles by a wide margin over Richarlison and Digne despite playing only 2/3 as many minutes. After today, Sidibe has 63 tackles in just 1245 minutes over 16 appearances. His tackles-per-minute rate is one of the best in the Prem. (Both Rich and Digne have played almost 2000 minutes, and have 54 and 51 tackles respectively.)

Furthermore, Sidibe is our best passer and crosser of the ball. He has four assists, second on the club to Digne, and his crossing accuracy rate of 32% is the best in the Prem.

Yeah, he has some major issues to sort out, but this guy is a talent, and he's staying. Get on the bandwagon.

"I don't think we win this game with 11"

What an utterly ridiculous thing to say... but I coudn't agree more.

I've been telling you for a long time that Holgate is the best footballer at this club. His passing is not his weakness. His weakness is his team mates inability to take a pass facing their own goal.
He could lump it, but he's doing what Ancelotti wants him to do and play through midfield.
If he gives it to Digne. he reverts to crab football. I can tell you now, that even if he switches to the right. He aint going to do it unless its the only ball on.
Take a look at how we got the corner for Mina's second goal. A surging run out of defence, little shimmy and exquisite forward pass - Guess who to ? He had no problem passing to Digne in and advanced role

You're still showing resistance and doubt, but Holgate will eventually drag you on board

I'll try. His attitude deserves a chance, I'll grant him that. You couldn't ask for more with his effort, attitude and approach.

And Christ knows that's 90% of the battle.

I will say you're fixated with his tackles stats. He's no Gana Gueye (we both loved Gana from the outset).

Those tackle stats for Sidibe deceive thy eyes, Sir Gaynes.

But I scream for all the traits Sidibe exhibits with his effort and attitude, so I'll back off the kid.

Mike G, has made the pilgrimage twice, and the time, and effort you both put into Everton on this website alone, shows me and countless others no doubt, what Everton FC means to you both, and I hope to one day share a pint, and a laugh, and a bit of a piss-take, because I'm not drinking my pint out of plastic!

Mike G, I'm glad your wife is okay, but if you think that Mina, is a better footballer than Holgate, then maybe you need to go and see someone yourself!

I like Mina, I thought he was improving every week, but since Ancelotti came into our club, I've been a bit more concerned by his form, so hopefully yesterday's two goals will help with his confidence, and hopefully someone telling him that sometimes in football, you are actually stronger, when you don't try and win every single ball, especially when it's not actually there to be won?

This might turn into a bit of a debate because I know how much you rate Mina, Mike, but the reason I think Holgate, is the better footballer, is the way he can effortlessly play in midfield.

Sometimes though we forget how young these players are, because central defenders usually get a lot better with age, and that's why I was made up with Richarlison yesterday, because his run and the way he took that extra touch, to change the angle, before he passed it inside to Kean, for yesterday's winner, was brilliant, because it could have been so easy to rush that final ball, and fuck it up, which shows me the kid is learning?

Darren #180, Holgate simply isn't a very good passer yet, although he is vastly improved over two years ago, when he was one of the worst I've ever seen. Now he's excellent on the ball, great touch, but if you follow his passes, they are not particularly ambitious and, often, not particularly accurate. He no longer misses wide-open targets as often, or drills the ball directly into defenders in front of him the way he did last season, but he does make Siggy and Iwobi and Rich reach for the ball (unlike Mina, who delivers it on a plate). You blame his teammates' "inability to take a pass facing their own goal", but often the pass is a half yard to the left or right and forces the recipient to stretch for it, and there's nothing they can do but shove it back.

And yes, Holgate's dribble and pass to Digne was perfect. It was also pretty much his first pass to the left all day. Guys were laughing about it on the Forum -- he had made about 20 straight passes to his right, either short to Sidibe or long towards Walcott, while Digne was out to the port side waving his arms.

But you don't have to worry about getting me "on board" with Holgate. Remember I was about the only guy on TW insisting that Brands didn't need to buy Kurt or borrow another CB because Mason could do the job, although I doubted Silva would ever give him another chance. And I suggested months ago that Mina and Holgate could be our long-term CB pairing. There was some derision then. I don't hear much now.

I don't know Tony Marsh, but you don't need to be a shrink to know he has suffered one kick to the balls too many. He's a fierce Evertonian who has taught himself to expect the worst in order to avoid more disappointment.

I don't know Dave Abrahams either but, having read his posts for years, I would bet a month's wages that he would happily spend time chatting to Marshy about all things Everton over a few pints.

Tony Marsh would have been celebrating last night. He would have been delighted that his worst fears were not realised. It was a day of celebration for all Evertonians.

I find it quite telling that, after such a result, the resident Midnight Mass would show no regard whatsoever for the game and can only come on to attack another fan... then come back two hours later to have another go.

While the eternally "miserable" Marshy would have been celebrating the comeback, the self-proclaimed positive can only sit and stew for hours after the match, wallowing in spite.

Funny old game.

Southgate would ruin him, he knows nothing. These young players will learn all the football nuances from Ancelloti and his team, they will learn bugger all at England camps.

Ancelloti would have won the last World Cup with England, not blown it down to a lack of football nous shown by Southgate v Croatia.

This summer is crucial – we will lose Martina, Niasse (thankfully) and probably Baines (sad face) freeing up significant wages; Schneiderlin can be moved on. I hate to say it but so should Coleman (Sidibe and Kenny can scrap for the shirt).

I think yesterday's defence will be our defence next season; I think Keane is an able and competent back-up. The only screw-up in my eyes there was not retaining Robinson who could have really pushed Digne in the future.

I really like the idea of nourishing Kean and Calvert-Lewin to gel together, Richarlison can fill in and keep them on their toes or go wide, the guy's a star.

What must happen this summer is we sort out that midfield, we HAVE to move on Sigurdsson at a price – this to me crucial, Schneiderlin & Sigurdsson need to be replaced with real quality. If we must keep Walcott (please no) then this must be as a back-up sub, for his pace to hurt teams in the closing minutes.

So for me, 2 central midfielders and a right midfielder of quality; then, boys, I think we will really have a side who can push forward. Let's get behind them and pray that Carlo and Brands make shrewd moves this summer.

Strange to think this season, which has been so disappointing at so many turns, is still alive and kicking. Still unsure how we have so many sub-standard options in central midfield but up top we have some nice options and Holgate has been a huge positive at the back. Things are looking up!

I posted on the forum yesterday but wish to reiterate - so much (by myself as well) has been written about wasted money at this club but don't forget how our (arguably) 2 best performers this season cost a combined ١.5M — outstanding business.

We are also quick to forget that we turned a good profit on the likes of Lookman (doubled our money, got rid of his presumably shit attitude), Vlasic, Onyekuru and Gana (boy, do we miss him); let's try to keep these positives in focus.

We aren't that bad (some of the live forum lot really need to be a little more supportive and less negative) and with a bit of more luck as well as Gomes to get back soon then we've a real good chance of Europa League next season

Agree we need to ship out some of the deadwood

Im sure Carlo will bring in some quality players next season

Going by this I reckon Moise has an assist to his name.

Go on!!! Go on!!!!

Commiserations to the travelling Blues who missed both Mina's goals by leaving for an early piss after they went two up!!!

The big bonus of this shambolic season has been the emergence of Holgate who is starting to look the real deal

Don't know much about the lad from Brum tbh, but would certainly take Zielinkski, and Everton Soares! But the latter to compete with Bernie on the left, as I'd leave Richie up top so we can then rotate a bit with DCL and Moise, or even go 4-3-3 sometimes.

Think it would be worth seeing if we could get Malcom away from Zenit. Still only 22 and a more natural right sided player. Get Delph off the wage bill if we can, and bring in Allen for a leader role in the middle alongside Zielinkski and Andre.

Those 4 would be a dream - but I think any two of them would turn us into top 4. The margins are so fine it's unreal. Other than the top 2 we are already as good as the rest. #UTFT #COYB

I agree that our midfield needs strengthening. However, we have 2 injured midfielders, one tried and tested, the other with huge potential.

Personally I would rather Gomes wasn't rushed back (not that that's likely) and see him and Gbamin start afresh next season.

By then Niasse and Martina will be off the books, which goes part way to acquiring a quality addition(s).

I've got mixed feelings about the other perceived dead wood.

It's seems the deadwood changes almost weekly, so are they as bad as we seem to think?

Apart from the above 2, what constitutes deadwood?

Be interesting to see who is definite deadwood and who after being labelled deadwood plays well in spite of the criticism?

Whilst the word ‘deadwood' is a little unfair on some of these, but I also agree with Steve@187 that Sigurddson and Schneiderlin should be moved on too. Add Delph to that too. Stabling influence my arse. Stekelenburg offers no future either.

The legends that are Baines and Coleman also take up big wages. Again I agree with Steve that doesn't make sense to continue that. We need youth challenging a first choice pair, and someone who could last a season if we got a big injury.

Keane, Iwobi and Walcott could be added too. but think Iwobi has time on his side and we still need backup.

The obvious ones to replace first off are Niasse, Tosun and Martina. You can probably add Dowel and few youngsters to that. Looking at the squad, if Gbamin and Gomes come good it gives us option to switch things up. If they don't... well Schneiderlin could move on, however l think he's currently the best we have in that position. Playing as a central mid and not sitting between the centre backs.

Regarding Siggy, a change of style hasn't helped him so rather than hope he goes and the endless criticism perhaps we allow Ancelotti the chance to actually coach the players.

I'll give Mina his due. if a team mate makes himself available for a simple pass. He will find him and that will impress the stattos, but he is very vulnerable to being pressed. Holgate has a side step, he has the lateral movement to get himself out of trouble, to open up passes that don't exist in Minas world. He isn't afraid to go past opponents to open opportunities.
Its years since we had a player like Holgate, Yeah he will make more mistakes, but he plays to win. His passes are ambitious. He always looks for the footballers pass.

Big Yerry was was being dominated to the point of being ridiculed throughout the first half yesterday. He needs to learn to be patient. He needs to stop going for balls he cant win and start attacking balls he can and should win. He is too good a player to be bossed by journeymen like he was yesterday. That said.. What a response. I was delighted for him personally as well as the team.
Mina is not just huge he times his runs well in the opponents box. I cant believe how many times he gets on the end of a cross. His downfall has been poor heading. He tends to connect with his ear rather then the bone above his eyebrows.
Maybe he needs reminding that he can head a ball. He has shown it at the highest level. Hopefully yesterdays 2nd goal will inspire him to work on his timing,
Mina will never be able to consistently make the passes Holgate made to force both corners yesterday, but that doesnt mean he doesnt have an even bigger contribution to make.
If he can start meeting these crosses on the bone consistently he can easily become a modern day Derek Mountfield

A few Oscar-winning performances by them to get players booked as well.

Slightly off-topic, I thought Watford had changed the Z-Cars theme to their own tune? Unless they just played it just for us to wind us up? Thanks, Watford — it worked a treat!

I always think that the one who is better at passing the ball, is usually the better footballer, but football is also about partnerships, so hopefully this is something that is beginning to develop between our two central defenders, who have both made mistakes, but are also up for the fight.

Also I would hate to play behind our current midfielders, because even when they show for the ball, there is usually very little intent, and this is why we look horribly ponderous at times.

Nice turn around from where we were after 15 games. COYB

Have read that they are over the moon in getting him and have been watching him for U-23's for quite some time so they did rate him highly. Paderborn are struggling a bit apparently at the wrong end of the Table. Personally, always interested in ones we have let leave to other Clubs.

Dunno if you can still call it a shambolic season, it was, but our resurgence since Silva was sacked has it as more of a poor season and it won't take much more to be an average season, but yet 3 more points could make it a good season!

Crazy league this year. But still most definitely the best in the world. As proved by the fact that we're the only League with all our clubs still in Europe and had 3/4 CL semi-finalists last season, and both EL finalists.

Arteta, or should I say, he is now their Teta, is not having a very successful baptism in management.

I don't think Mina is bad on the ball. He can pass alright

He can be a bit deliberate because his first touch isn't fantastic, but its better than most center backs in this league. He doesnt have the feet to get himself out of trouble when he is isolated, but if the get out of jail pass is on, He will invariably complete it.

I think he is an ok center half, who will improve, but he has the potential to be a match winner. A few more goals like the ones he got yesterday will see him doubly marked... That will simply leave space for others to exploit.

Ancelotti getting more out of these players than I expected. We may still be shite and Brands has to come good this summer and give him the tools, but he has these players "finding a way".

Not sure we can ask any more than that

I'm going for

Norwich City
Watford
Aston Villa

Although I'd much rather West Ham go down than Villa.

To me he still seems tremendously clumsy, like he's not in full control of his limbs (strangely similar to Funes-Mori in this respect). His timing on attacking headers is frustratingly bad and he has missed a few sitters, which kind of confirms the general opinion of him here.

We became big news yesterday because of his 2 goals, so long may it continue...

ps: Holgate is the business.

Fortunately we were sufficiently poor to sack Silva and Moshiri was sufficiently bold to appoint Ancelotti. Suddenly the chance for progression is back on again, despite the professional doom-mongers on here.

Only taking into account Everton as they're the team we all follow, how many good performances have we put in this season? Five maybe six? and I think that's being kind to them, yet we find ourselves with a chance of ending up in Europe.

Man U according to their own fans and many pundits are half-cooked and going backwards, Arsenal although unbeaten in seven matches since Arteta took over have had a very poor season, similar signs at Spurs. Chelsea and Leicester aren't as good as they would like to be although both are better than most of the rest of the league. Sheffield United are Everton circa 2004, whilst Wolves are good but nowhere near being a consistent force who are expected to win in any given fixture.

What Everton and Evertonians mustn't do is believe they are becoming a force because like all the teams I mentioned above there is huge scope for improvement and a lot of hard work to be done before we can say that.

The poor standard of the Premier League isn't something I wish to peddle, I'd much prefer to praise it if I had seen the evidence with my own eyes rather than rely on the progress of English sides in Europe. But in your defence there must be some pretty appalling teams and leagues in the rest of europe, if the Premier League is the best.

Arsenal are like us in that they have a lot of problems and weaknesses in the squad but he's already made them tougher to play against and their fans have really taken to him. They are much better than they were under Llunberg and Emery.

I think you may have answered your own query with your last paragraph. I'm sure there are a lot of bang average teams on the continent. We probably look at foreign-sounding teams the same way as we look at foreign-sounding players and managers. they must be good because they sound like they should be.

Look at Lukaku and Chris Smalling in particular. Rave reviews about both of them in Italy, both struggled in the Premier League last season. We would never have accepted Chris Smalling as a transfer.

I also can't imagine Haaland would have scored 7 goals in his first 3 appearances in the Premier League. We might be the best league by default, because the rest of Europe is shit! Last season's European exploits surely prove this.

Davies?
Schneiderlin?
A n other?

I can think of some very knowledgeable fans on this site, I don't include myself in that, but some of the articles and pieces written on here definitely show knowledge!

When you get a league where 95% of the teams beat each other regularly, you'll notice plenty of fans thinking their team 'should' be doing better.

Liverpool have murdered everyone, but I'd bet you Marco Silva, will be sitting somewhere now, saying his team could have been sitting right up the table like Leicester, if only Everton would have recruited better last summer?

And, by the way, even in the midst of a good season Smalling is still doing some pretty bizarre stuff:

https://www.givemesport.com/1535818-chris-smalling-gives-away-penalty-with-the-strangest-handball-of-the-season

I'd rather have Holgate a thousand times over.

I don't think it's necessarily lack of knowledge I think it's perspective. Any time there's a goal, fans and pundits acknowledge it then immediately identify someone to blame. There's never a goal without someone being identified as a culprit. Here in the USA on the scorer being great in every sport. I seldom here “Le Bron scores cause that defender is shit.” Obviously you can argue either analysis has its merits but we English tend to the negative.

Yesterday Wolves' Traore dislocated his shoulder, again, in the match and had it immediately re-set, again, without leaving the pitch. That's one example of the sort of passion I'm talking about. It's a rare beast.

If you disagree which league is stronger?

Regarding Palace, I think CA may try starting with Tom Davies and Siggy as he continues with the midfield prove exercise I think he is on. He seems to have his mind settled regarding defence and attack. Personally I would like to see Mason H start in midfield but that really depends where CA considers MHs best position to be.

Sorry, no. I don't believe we should lay out one cent on a keeper until we address our far more urgent problems in midfield and our lack of scoring depth. When you've put up 31 goals in 25 games and you're one of the slowest teams in the league, you don't spend your limited cash resources in the 6-yard box.

Time enough to address the keeper position, if necessary, after we get to the point where we can put a full side on the pitch that won't make us cringe at the sight.

In my opinion, we have grown a generation of fans who look for the negative every time; where was the mistake? That could have been avoided. Every shot can be stopped if the keeper would have stood 2.57mm closer to his left and worn bigger gloves etc; that type of mentality.

We seem to have lost the ability to sometimes accept that it was a great attacking move or piece of play. Dare I say, maybe why Liverpool have progressed so much under Klopp. For the past few seasons many have questioned their midfield creativity and pre-Van Dijk / Allison defence. Did that bother them? No, they just kept attacking & scoring!!

I maintain my view that the Premier League is the best self-proclaimed league in the world, but in honesty outside of Liverpool & Man City, it is not competitive at all. I'm a lifelong city of Liverpool born Evertonian but these days, I follow the Bundesliga as much as I do the Premier League. I like to follow Schalke. ironically, so many similarities to Everton so I'm glutton for punishment!!!

Going back to Steve's post regarding the fact both European cup finals were played between English teams. Surely the whole point of European cups is to see who is the best that year and English teams won both of them!
This year may be completely different, but last year the premier league was proven to be the best in Europe!

Steve 246- always people will come out with the same nonsense but no-one will be able to answer your question.

Norwich
West Ham
Bournemouth

That's where I'd put my money.

And the Premier League is by far the most talented and most competitive in the world. I've watched a few Italian League games and they are so much softer, they don't press near as much, and the play seems to be more focused on unlocking teams rather than your high-octane EPL. There's a ton of technical talent on display in the other leagues, but it's not near as exciting for me. In fact, I can get bored sometimes watching.

Have to agree with you.

I don't want Gomes rushed back for the lack of a quality midfielder.

Davies is regrettably work in progress, but media don't give him a break!

We need one, two at the most quality signings in the summer to move to the next level.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

However, we have never, never had an Ancelotti at the helm before!

COYB

Okay he/we, have been more than unfortunate with injuries to players, but since his sacking it's strange that we have gained more points with the same group of remaining fit players coached by both Duncan Ferguson and Carlo Ancelotti.

Silva was his own worst enemy, he probably was a decent coach but a useless manager, he wouldn't deviate from what he believed was right (arrogance) he had zero leadership from the sidelines in a Match.

He continually deployed a system that clearly wasn't working, with the same combination of players, who seemed bewildered at times as to what system they were working in.

Besides, how do you know that Silva had little or no say in who was bought/brought in the Summer Transfer Window?

It was going back, to long, by gone times. But since Carlos, arrived, the team has lifted and looked up.

Miles off the top teams, but very good signs, and with hard work and some fortune in the transfer market, this summer, I sense the second coming, based on the great days of the mid 1980s.

If EFC, is to move and be consistent, now is the time and it has got to happen.

The RS, are where they are, some of them, of late, have said, we've got a good manager.

I believe, and yesterday's win was similar to the 1983/84 season.

The club is turning, and like an oil tanker, in the English Channel, it does take time.

See the body language of the players yesterday, and it showed.

Delph, for me is keen,but his game nous, is not good enough.

Over time he'll be a squad player, but yesterday, he was foolish to fly in and invite trouble plus vpp passing for Watford's first goal.Wreckless, and jeopardised a good recovery, in context of the game.

The start of the long haul back, but weekends are getting better.

EFC, will have to be clever, with FFP, etc, but we can make strides this last 4 months of this season,

In Carlo, we trust.

With regards to the players he stated that Iwobi wasn't his choice and it was common knowledge that he wanted Doucoure and was clearly unhappy with this summers business.

Silva had lost the faith of the group but just because we have had a bounce under both Dunc and Carlo doesn't mean that we don't need to see decent work by Brands this summer.

CA has only been in for a few games and already has a better than 50% win rate (Silva about 34% I believe) and his team have achieved something Silva never could i.e. coming back from a losing position. IMO the man was a train wreck waiting to happen/

Delph was unlucky with both yellows, but the way he tackles is probably too agricultural for modern-day Premier League refs, encouraging poor decisions from the poorer refs, and Craig Pawson is such a ref.

Pickford continues to be too easily beaten, but the back four are getting stronger. Walcott slightly culpable for not noticing the advancing Masina for Watford's first goal, but his 90th minute winner gets him off the hook.

Everton are rubbish, just 10pts above second bottom.

Everton are great, 2 pts above Arsenal.

Everton are rubbish, 40 pts behind The Dark Side.

Everton are great, only 2 pts behind Man Ure and 4 behind Spurs.

The other thing I have to say is that Walcott deserves great credit for the goal because it was no simple tap in. He had to change direction to get to the ball (once it had been passed or scuffed) and when he got to it he had to bury it because the goalie had got back well to make the target smaller.

The midfield except for Bernard and Davies/Iowbi who are trying , have not got Ancelottis message yet. . When Ancelotti sees a misplaced or poorly executed pass , which seems to happen too often in midfield, he has a way of looking away as if he is looking for a solution that is not there.

I know we've got a few games till then and we're moving up slowly in the league but that's just reared it's head as a possibility after City's loss to spurs yesterday.

We all agree we should have brought in another centreback - for purposes of depth, if nothing else - but the real issue was Silva not rating/trusting Holgate, to his ultimate detriment.

Likewise, we talked about the need for a more established striker, but our struggles to score seem to have had a lot more to do with Silva's rigid 4-2-3-1 system. Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison have produced 18 goals between them and we look a far different side with the two of them up top.

Silva might have felt hard-done by the summer recruitment, but he could have and should have done better with what he had.

A sobering thought but presently their current away points tally (34) alone would put them ahead of us in today's table. Everton currently have 33 points the same total as we had this time last season, and sat in ninth position the same as last year We have so much to improve upon and hopefully we are at the beginning of that process.

Arse - the Monday may be a bugger for me to get there...

John @276 – they won the league weeks ago. However, don't think a few here could stomach having to give them a guard of honour and watch them lift the trophy at GP. I'd really feel sorry for Liverpool based Blues as that would be rubbed in for many many years!

ECAL puts the fixture dates in your calendar and auto updates if there are any changes.

Lost 7/12 aerial duels, 0/3 in his own box. 🤯 Deffo cannot judge the flight of ball. Lad needs to tie a ball up in the rafters like Tommy Lawton and practice quick smart.