Premier League clubs reject 'Project Big Picture'

Very embarrassing for the two rogue clubs that proposed this, but an embarrassment that's fully deserved.

The vote against was unanimous? So the so called big 6 clubs voted against the Red proposal, including the proposers ?

Frank@2: It looks like Liverpool and Utd had no choice but to join the 18-strong consensus. That was embarrassing enough for them, and it would have been even more embarrassing if they'd resisted the consensus. What a climb-down from their ridiculous and fantasy high horse. And well done to Everton for demanding an apology from them for their skulduggery.

Frank maybe the board of the Premier League gave Everton, WHU and Southampton double votes - as newly-approved Long Term Shareholders?

Hi Stan, it looks as though I can strike at least one item off the list of things, that would encourage me to walk away from the game that has played a big part of my life. [72 of my 82 years]. I'm looking for my hat-trick now, the abolition of VAR, and the cessation of tinkering with the laws of the game.

Hi John, I hope your wishes come true!

Yes Stan, fair play to DBB for asking for an apology. Needless to say she didn't get one and the rogue two seem to be claiming victory, as there will be a review now. If you think about the strategies of negotiation, going with an outlandish proposal with no hope of approval is often a starting point. A watered down version can be negotiated later, where both sides have waived some of their demands. Trade Union tactics.

The always excellent Mark O'Brien summed it up better than I ever could on his recent ‘this is not football' blog post. Something like

‘If you invite a vampire over the threshold, don't be surprised when it rips your throat out...'

Something like that but much more eloquent.

These people are vampires and can pretend to care about the rest of football all they want. Thankfully the rest of football aren't stupid and don't want to hand even more power to a couple of deluded billionaires.

Pass the wooden steak.

John Sr. #5, please don't wait for the banishment of VAR. Please. It's not going to happen. No sport or league has ever abolished a video review system once adopted, and it won't happen with the Prem. And the laws tinkering likewise will never stop... best we can hope for is that future tinkering makes things better.

Frank and Stan, I hope DBB reiterates her demand. It won't happen, of course, but that's a flag worth planting deep.

Actually the objective of the Proposal has been achieved, a Strategic Review. This will mean that elements of the Proposal will be on the agenda and considered.

Jerome@10: To be honest, I think most if not all of football desired a big review of things as they stand, because the way things were going was pretty much unsustainable. A review was probably coming anyway, sooner rather than later with COVID.

I don't see any victory at all for the two dodgy parties, but you could argue they were trying to pre-empt the inevitable big review, and it back-fired for them big time.

It's telling that every red I know is currently silent on the matter.

They say that power corrupts. It's also true that a hunger for power leads to daft ill-considered decisions that have a danger of back-firing.

Hi Jerome, do you honestly believe that the objective of the proposal was achieved, and that Liverpool and Manchester United are to be commended for their part in assisting less fortunate members of the 'Football Fraternity'? if that's the case I guess I owe them an apology.

I think that all sides will be pretty pleased with the result. But this is only stage one in what will be a long running saga. Others articulate what the two evil red empires will be seeking to achieve next. The battle may be over, but the war is not yet won.

Yes they've signed a piece of paper,but I agree with Martin Samuels,there will be a lack of trust now going forward

Martin Samuels in the Mail writes
“It was Everton who were the first to mention the T word. Trust. There wasn't a lot of it in the room, as the authors of Project Big Carve-up faced their fellow Premier League shareholders.“

I just wonder if this episode represents a bit of a turning point for Everton. A lot of folks on here were concerned about the silences, and then it was Everton who came out and demanded an apology. That, combined with the manager, new players, current performances, and the potential changes to the structure of the leagues in a way that has apparently defeated the shenanigans of Mordor and the Theatre of Dreams. A shift in our favour?

Brent, with the Journos not being a party to the call, who's talking up DBB taking on the evil cartel? It all seems a bit theatrical. I wonder who could be telling the tale to the Everton leaning press?

Anyone who brings Covid into this is missing the point. These plans were drawn up long before Covid. The global pandemic couldn't have been better times for these charlatans. Pretend to save the base of the pyramid and hope we'll all be banging pots and pans like we did on a Thursday for the NHS?

I'm glad they've been rejected. But I'm even more glad they've been called out. Once trust is eroded, it takes a long time to repair.

Steve, presumably all those participating would be able to confirm or deny the reports.

Brent,

I'm not for a second suggesting she didn't do it. I'm sure she did. It just seemed stage-managed. Perhaps her part was written or rehearsed. Then afterwards, the yarn is told to the press in the theatrical manner it was and used for maximum effect.

I'm just seeing a certain person's hand at work here. Not saying he hasn't managed this well, or that DBB hasn't done her part exceptionally well either. Just it's playing out in a way he would have hoped.

Steve,

“Perhaps her part was written or rehearsed. Then afterwards, the yarn is told to the press in the theatrical manner it was and used for maximum effect.”

And maybe it wasn't.

Brent, you'd be a fool not to have some sort of script or crib sheet to read off. You are going to get your say at some point and others have to let you talk.

Brent @19: True, and presumably there will be Minutes of the meeting to confirm what happened.

Steve @22: Isn't it kind of obvious that some homework would have been done to prepare what to say, as per normal sensible practice for any important meeting? I think using terms like ‘stage-managed' might be a tad dramatic.

Steve, you see a certain person's hand at work here, as you say. You have no evidence for that. And as you say, of course, anybody would go in with a script.

No evidence of it, Brent, but I've watched him work for decades, and this is how he'd operate.

The point is not what she did, it's how what she did is being portrayed in the press. As I said, it's all very theatrical and gone the way he'd have dreamed it would.

As you'll have no doubt heard before: "Objection, pure unfounded supposition."

I've never heard that, Brian. That's only said in bad American dramas.

Steve I'm really disappointed in you. That's pure supposition. Case dismissed.

Brent, you clearly love those dramas as well!

The press isn't likely to take on board Bill's 'stage-managed' reports of what happened at today's meeting, without having other sources to verify what happened. How do we know that selected members of the press weren't allowed to view the proceedings as they occurred?

Steve considering your professional background, you do occasionally make a lot of suppositions. Of course, your speculations may be true but then again they may not.

Patrick, you've obviously never seen how we win trials have you? Massive part of the job mate. How else do you create reasonable doubt? Stick to provable facts and you aren't winning many cases unless you prosecute.

Plus this isn't work, it's a bit of fun to forget the stresses of work and the last thing I want to do is be 100% serious.

John #12,

Something had to be done regarding the Covid Crisis. The Premier League were stalling and generally were poor in managing the crisis response.

In my opinion, Parry latched on to favourable sounding of Liverpool and Man Utd. He let them attach their oft-mooted ideas on to his recovery ideas. The objective of the proposal was to get the Premier League to discuss it.

All the parties involved in the proposal have achieved that objective and the proposals will be on the agenda of the strategic review as well as the opinions of other clubs.

It is in Strategic review that the fight begins, with the on-going Covid Crisis providing the motivation to come to an agreement. Prior to this, the proposal was nothing more than a negotiating ploy to force structural discussions.

John, no apology needed. You are right in your assessment of the motivation of the two clubs involved. They are using the Covid Crisis to further their objectives, but solutions to the effect of the Covid Crisis on Clubs will be discussed.

Stan #11

In my opinion, both Liverpool and Man Utd are trying to return to the days prior to Leicester winning the Premier League, where six clubs effectively controlled the Premier League and the other clubs' objective was to join them. Leicester's win was done by employing an experienced manager. Everton are threatening to do the same.

The scenario has now changed from expensive players to experienced managers and a squad assembled at low cost. It's a far more flexible way to operate, regenerating a consistent competitive team.

There is no chance that the status quo will return and these two clubs may have inadvertently initiated change that may not have the favourable outcome they want.

Now DBB and Twisted Sister are both on the same page Re. the rs and mancs

Oh, we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh, we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh, you're so condescending
Your gall is never ending
We don't want nothin', not a thing from you

Oh, were not going to take it etc, etc.

No insult intended but I could easily imagine DBB, giving her Dolores Umbrage style strident, sharp-tongued harridan to all the mere males gathered before her.

We're Right,
We're Free,
We'll Fight,
You'll See.

So in the now surreal world of football club owners Everton, one of the dozen founder clubs in establishing football as professionally viable in the late 19th century, one of only six clubs who were invited to be the proponents of the Premier League, are now classified as merely on a par with West Ham and Southampton!

Who's responsible for that in our boardroom in the past 25 years I wonder?

Answers on a postcard please.

Steve, I suspect it raises the term "reasonable doubt" but, then again, given the track record of the person concerned, it's hard not to view any comment that is made by anyone on the board as being open to conjecture or conspiracy. His shadow falls a long way for such a short man.

DDB would not have spoken out without the approval of the board, who may well see the benefit of not being party to such proposals, and I am not of the persuasion that the two main protagonists achieved what they wanted, a strategic review... more that they failed and wanted to save face by dressing up their failure in success.

The damage caused to both teams is immense; neither team will win the league this season... I doubt they will win anything. Man Utd will finish well below Everton and Liverpool will struggle, especially after the forthcoming defeat at Goodison. They can see the writing on the wall and are merely trying to consolidate their power before it's too late.

Memo to protagonists: You lost.

Well, you started it with the pure fiction, Steve. 🤣

Christine #36.

I believe that the last thing those two wanted was a Strategic Review with all stakeholders present. Maybe a cosy group of representatives from a few clubs... now who would that be? – to solve our problems for us.

Hi Christine [36],

I hope that life in New Zealand is treating you well. The thing that puzzles me in this attempt by Liverpool and Manchester United, possibly supported by others, is that the people who proposed the overhaul of the system voted against their own proposal.

I feel that, if their intention was to assist lower League clubs, then they and fellow Premier League members could have constructed a scheme to do so, without altering the pyramid structure. Part of their deal was that two clubs would lose their places in League Two.

t's true that some good will come out of the situation but my point is, if they could come up with a rescue plan which contained conditions, then they could do so with no strings attached.

There wasn't any attempt to come to the rescue of Bury FC long before the Covid-19 pandemic. Premier League clubs, and I include Everton were quite content to allow one of the oldest clubs in the country to perish, when a donation would have helped them survive until a solution to their problems could be found. Maybe I'm using Yesteryear sentiments.

"Man Utd will finish well below Everton and Liverpool will struggle, especially after the forthcoming defeat at Goodison."

You ride a mighty big horse, Lady.

Christine #36,

I agree with you regarding placings, but find it hard to get my head around, after this last 20 years. In the case of the Strategic Review, it's a case of being careful what you wish for.

This is one area that I do think Kenwright will be good at. His ability to baffle knows no bounds. Everton, in their response, appear to know what the ball game is.

A small point of order.

On the demise of Bury, Bill Kenwright the individual and Everton FC the collective did try to help them out, but were told they could not as it infringed EFL and FA regulations.

Manchester City for the last five years gave Bury rent-free access to Bury to their former Carrington training ground.

Full story here:

Bill Kenwright Offer to Help Out

John #39

Financial help for the lower league clubs was, supposedly, part of the deal to allow football to re-start behind closed doors. The lower league clubs are still waiting.

In both our lifetimes all of the so called Big 6 (with the exception of Arsenal) have been relegated; Man City many times and as low as Div 3 and Chelsea were always a yoyo club.

The 'big six' would have had a built in majority to make any change they wanted. Under their power grab proposals what would have stopped them abolishing relegation if some of them were struggling at the wrong end of the table?

For all his faults ('it was foggy' v Ajax, 'travesty of justice' etc etc) Bill Shankly believed in equality of opportunity and the fair share of the rewards. He would have been absolutely appalled at what his club has become.

Don @25. Seriously pal, don't you ever get tired of this relentless Kenwright slagging? You're like an old 78-rpm vinyl record going round and round making the same boring sound.

Give us all a rest and try and find something to smile about.

Steve, I always have an agenda and an idea of what I want to say going into a meeting if I feel strongly enough about a point on that agenda. I don't see anything wrong with it being scripted. It helps clear communication.

Regards leaks to the press, I couldn't care less. If Denise wasn't the first to mention Trust then that would be quickly dismissed by others in the meeting.

Anything that helps us to continue being seen in a positive light is good for me. Prior to this break we were receiving plenty of attention for the right reasons. I really hope we can do the business Saturday lunchtime and perhaps we can start to be taken a bit more seriously. I'd love to shut all the dickheads up on twitter.

Like all businesses over the years, it's always been the biggest survive in a crisis and the smallest don't. Eventually, the big clubs will get their way in some form or other but not just yet.

Change is inevitable so we have to get used to it but nothing wrong with fighting it. Corporate greed is rife and always will be in a capitalistic society.

Some good points, Dan. And yes, we are in an age in which off-field issues really can overshadow and pare the shine from the core of the whole thing.

So, back to the football. Can't wait for Saturday...

Tom – it's rife whilst it's being fed.

Remember when Moyes stated he wasn't prepared to follow Pompey's "Boom or Bust" model of crazy spending for short term success? Funny now have to bail them out. Then you've say Derby County and Sheffield Wednesday with shady financial shenanigans chasing promotion and wanting a bailout from teams they'd likely replace, eg, Burnley who are run more prudently.

How much of the bailout money to lower clubs will go to the pockets of loan sharks and scumbags like the guy who ruined Bury? Or the fake shell company created to send Wigan into administration? Honestly, I think it might be better to follow the Accrington model, let them sink then start over.

You're right, Keiran. Game is polluted by oily fuck skimmers.

Problem today is, I think for the majority of clubs that fail, there will be no way back. What we have known, may be about to be decimated.

Amazing, DBB as CEO of Everton FC goes to a meeting as their representative, disagrees on the subject of what the meeting was called for, and is that disgusted of what transpires in that meeting demands an apology from the clubs that raised it, and is accused of not having a mind of her own but was told what to say before she got there.

You can either like or dislike her but, before you accuse her of not having a mind of her own as CEO of Everton FC to look after their interests, you should check out her qualifications for this appointment.

There is a lot more to running an organization as big as Everton FC apart from the football side of it and Moshiri has made sure he has the football side covered with Brands and Ancelotti.
My question: Is the Premier League helping out the lower league clubs? And if not why? Why not have each premier team contribute 5% or more of their gate receipts, with Sky Sports also contributing the same % for the fees received for broadcasting rights around the world.

There may be some plans or a future meeting to discuss this subject but it should include a set income over the next 15 years to lower league clubs instead of one-off payment distributed.

Will 50,

Honestly I would have some kind of audit of clubs. Preston for example claim to be solvent, others like Oldham are rancid. Give the bailout money to those who are viable outside of covid, and make future plans to give them additional TV money. The ones indebted to scum, let them sink.

Wimbledon FC started from scratch and soundly run have made it back up into the league. If say Derby County have to go bust, if there's genuine interest in the city, there is no reason why they can't reform and climb their way up the ladder.

Bill Gall,

"My question: is the Premier League helping out the lower league clubs? And if not, why?"

Another question would be: Why have Arsenal laid off dozens of employees to cut costs but then will be turning around and paying interest on exorbitant debts run up by crooks running lower league clubs who chose to take on liabilities in the form of wages that exceeded their income, even before Covid?

I agree with your thinking, Keiran. Identifying and finding the rats, then applying the legal scrutiny and action however, is another thing; a massive, years-long task, and a road to nowhere. I think it's all too late, very sad.

What happened at Wigan was utter, overt corruption, and sickening to see it played out, just knowing that the right steps will ultimately never be taken.

As ever, the fans and communities (in the real sense) will be the losers. History means essentially nothing now. The disruption suits too many vested interests at the top of the pyramid.

Bill Gall. 51.

You're dead right. There are many blues who cannot ever see anything positive in the business management of the club whatever they do. Before the meeting yesterday there were blues on various threads suggesting that the reason EFC had made no comment about TBP was that the club probably supported it not least because it could recoup a vast sum towards the stadium and how some of them would never darken the turnstiles again if that dastardly consent was given.

Instead of that, Denise raises more objections than any other club, demands an apology, does what all Evertonians wanted her to do but instead of being a reason for pride in the club and it's response to it becomes a seed for suspicion and baseless insinuation.

It's ridiculous.

Hi Jay, [42] I stand corrected on the Bill Kenwright, Everton FC offer to help Bury FC in their predicament. Now that you mention it, I do recall it, I place it alongside the donation to little Bradley Lowery the Sunderland fan. It appears that I owe Bill and the Club an apology. In my defence, I'm claiming that it's an age thing, I can recall things from the early 50s quite easily, but struggle with recent events.

Hi Bill [43] I'm not aware of the agreements regarding the resumption of football matches behind closed doors, so I think it's best if I don't comment further.

Kieran, unless you can prove that all lower league clubs are run by crooks you are tarring everyone with the same brush. There are a lot of clubs run by people with a genuine interest in the club and it is up to the leagues to protect these people. The present system is faulty and has to be changed and that is up to the people responsible in charge.

My complaint like everyone else was this Project Big Picture was a cash + power grab by certain clubs who offered a sum to lower league clubs and then they were basically on their own. I think the Premier League are in a better financial position to help lower leagues and the example I gave made sure the richer clubs paid more.

There are a lot of problems that can and should be solved to help struggling lower league clubs and an example can be seen when our own chairman was denied financial help for Bury.

As I said there may be consultations already going on but the Premier League cant bury their heads in the sand over this problem as most of them either have bought players or have them on loan at lower league clubs.

The need to bailout the lower league clubs is a necessity based on what the clubs bring to their local communities.

They should set parameters for support based on their outgoings to operate not their lost income, in essence just keep them ticking over. There should be no funding to cover debts, if a club is the sold the funding and a level of interest should be paid back to the pot before any other monies are syphoned off

Finally I have been a critic of DBB in the past but I am truely full of administration for her on this occasion calling out the RS and Man Utd on this cluster-fuck of a power grab.

John 56, Another I (just about) remember, a few years ago I am sure we helped out Carlisle Utd after their ground was completely flooded.

Bill Gall,

"There are a lot of clubs run by people with a genuine interest in the club."

Fair enough so maybe crook was the wrong word though there are plenty of crooks. But the "genuine interest in the club folk" are often equally problematic. Dave Whelan, Phil Gartside for example. They keep underwriting debt at the clubs they love to keep them afloat but long term they encumber them with unmanageable debt and the problems arise when they die or run out of cash.

Case in point: Blackburn. Jack Walker left a trust to keep the club afloat but with spiralling costs it was only a few years before that war chest was gone and Blackburn were suddenly on a precarious financial footing. Obviously money could be better filtered down the line but they need some kind of fiscal discipline.

Don't want a £50m handout? There can be only one response... "Suit yourself."

BBC website reporting that RS and ManUre (and 3 other EPL clubs - Man City plus 2 of Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham?) have been approached to become founder members of a European Super League... off you go then, don't let the door hit your arses on the way out. And don't come back crying when it all goes tits up.

Paul #62
I think that will be the response of many supporters but in the cold light of day and the financial realities, how would the proposal affect Everton FC, particularly as they are going to be left behind by the super clubs. For the sake of Don - I'll do it for him - this is the real legacy of one Bill Kenwright!
Everton Omitted?

Link

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/breakaway-european-super-league-could-15383256

Patrick 63

This seems like a resurgence of the proposal Juventus mooted at the end of last year that the so called "big six" rejected. Selfish as they are, the gist seemed to be that they didn't like it because it would create a more even financial playing field for Bayern, Juve etc. Whereas they are enjoying their financial dominance presently. I think the timing of this rumor is interesting though as UEFA just announced that they will reduce prize money for Europe for the next five years due to covid. I suspect, this is a very unsubtle way of threatening UEFA in order for the Juve's of this world to get their cake and eat it.

Liverpool and Man Utd will never walk away from the golden goose that is the Premier League for a FIFA euro league. They expect to be begged to stay, and then get concessions.

First, they will want a smaller Premier League so they can participate in both competitions.

66# Tony - totally agree. Funny how reject idea of Big Project and this rears it's' head again / I would suggest it is done to put pressure on accept parts of Big Project.

Frankly, I wish any clubs who want a breakaway European league to fuck off and go

Totally agree with Tomy.
This is posturing at its finest, they are expecting the FA to shit themselves and offer them what they want to stay in the prem.
If the FA had any balls it would call their bluff, tell them to fuck off and don't come back.
I'm convinced football would be better without them, restructure the whole of football without the greedy bastards.

Personally, I'd be quite happy if five of the ‘top 6' fucked off and formed a European Premier League.

I'd hope the new European Premier League will be a closed shop, with no chance of EFC joining.

I'd also hope the English Premier League would ban participation of clubs who take part in the European Premier League.

We'd then have a very exciting English Premier League, with no clear favourites...most of the media shitheads will of fucked off with the five clubs to the European Premier League too! Another bonus!

These five clubs' fans would soon fuck them off (apart from the diehards and the idiots), once they became the shite of that league, with Barca and Real being the actual Big clubs instead of our media-driven-drivel elevating clubs like Man Utd and the shite to a position they'll never achieve!

Oh we can only hope...getting rid of these five clubs will be like cutting an illness from the English Premier League

It's looking like FIFA are involved in this and it's more likely the Champions League that's under threat. The PL would need to shrink as per last weeks proposal

If FIFA is involved it must be pukka, mustn't it?

Is anyone really surprised by the latest developments?

A European league of sorts has been mooted for years. After the rebuttal last week, this can be no surprise.

I suggest Madrid and the RS form their own league, play each other every week.

At the end of their season the winner can be awarded a new prize.
I suggest they call it The Covid Cup.

In a league of eighteen clubs and no relegation for twenty years, consider this

You are 8th or below in the league, with no chance of winning it, and have say, ten games left to play. You've got absolutely nothing to play for, as you know you can't win the league nor be relegated. You are, in effect playing dead rubbers just to see the season out. The fans would become bored shitless with this, but it wouldn't bother the hierarchy one little bit as the millions would keep on rolling in.

As others have said though, once you're gone, you're gone!! No chance of a return.

SO SEE YA!! ✋✋✋

Hi Rob [72] I think that you may get a sense of my enjoyment of the early 50s, no League Cup, no European Cup [until mid 50s] Players who were working class lads who could play football, and although they weren't on fabulous money it was in excess of double the working mans pay. We could identify with them, unlike today where players have assumed the role of film stars. I don't know how I have retained my love for the game, which I might add, is rapidly diminishing. On the subject of a European League my view is the same as others on this thread, I have no wish to see Everton play in any such competition, and to those who do wish to compete I say, "Good riddance, and thank you for returning our game to us," although at the age of 82 I may not be around to enjoy it.

John, I clearly understand where you're coming from when you talk about football in the 50's. My dad who was born in 1934 (4years before you?) but sadly no longer with us, always told us stories about the blues in the 50's, and early 60's. His favourite player was Dave Hickson, who me, my dad and nephew had the great pleasure of meeting in one of the suites at Goodison when we played Brann Bergen in the UEFA cup in 2008. A really nice fella was Dave.

This is shit news how do we get into the super league, win the Prem and go into a play off with other winners around Europe ? Can't see Tottenham going for it if there's chance of relegation and if it's relegation free, then what a crock of shit.

Be delighted to watch civil war break out among fans of "global" clubs abandoning the English league. Local fans barely tolerate foreign owners as it is the suspicion money coming before honouring their birthright would be confirmed with footballing eurovision

The first signs it's not quite like the brochure would bring anguished howls of " FUCKIN' TOLD YA NOW WE CAN'T GO BACK BURN FENWAY/GLAZERS ET AL"

If I was DBB I would organise a meeting of the current 14 clubs and vote them out, gone now, cheerio at the end of the season. Why be dictated to by Liverpool and Utd. Pack your bags and go I say. Replace them with top 6 in Championship and move on. Oh and no coming back, when your gone your gone. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Horrible clubs and owners the lot of them. It's at times like this I appreciate the work of EITC and what it means to the club, fans, city and wider circle.