Flat Everton succumb to defeat on Tyneside

Cahill talking absolute nonsense in the studio as usual.

For some reason I have a real feeling of dread today. *gulp*

Suppose Gomes will play advanced with Doucoure and Delph tucking into the vacated fullback positions with the fullbacks asked to bomb on.

Nkounkou reminds me of that on the left.

It's a mandatory shut down by those in power for the proletariat. They know best.

Inquiring minds want to know Samba King.

Newcastle and Southampton last week are playing so deep. There's no counter attacking opportunities, no way to break with pace.

We have to figure out how to break these teams down when they play deep.

Get Sigurdsson and Delph off at half time and get Gordon and Iwobi on. Or at least Gordon on for Sigurdsson and put Delph to left back and Nkounkou wide left.

No live forum by the way?

Worst number 10 ever.

Olsen good and reassuring.

Bet he wins it for us

Sigurdsson off , Bernard on. inject some creativity Sigg is not offering much

Wish we had gone for King. He's not top quality but he would offer what we need right now to add some pace and vitality.

More ambition needed

The main issue is the formation. You simply can't thread a pass through such a congested middle and there's absolutely no width. Carlo needs to change that. He needs to take the captain fantastic off. He's done nothing but pass backwards.

Martin. Here's one: it's stopped for a bit.

Gomes off, Gordon on!

I still think we f#cked ourselves up in the window leaving ourselves short of attacking threat.

Build up is too slow, Gomes and Siggy playing in awkward positions for them in their defence - both huffing and puffing with fair few sloppy mistakes.

We absolutely can't concede first in this match. Here's hoping for a clean sheet and we can pinch a goal.

I'd like see Gordon for a more direct running threat, space in behind their wingbacks

Sigurdsson cannot do what Gomes can do. He's not capable of it. And Delph isn't either. They just lack the passing ability.

I think the Son tackle buggered him and he'll never be the same player again.

Carlo has tightened up the formation from last weekend, with Delph and Doucoure dropping back allowing Nkoukou and Kenny to get forward, but no one in midfield with the courage or pace to break from midfield to unbalance Newcastle's rigid lines.

Allan has shown the sharper most incisive and inventive passing in that area. Sigurdsson is actually having a decent game. Gomes isn't. DCL's hold up and lay-off play excellent, but getting nothing to attack facing the goal.

The Barcodes more than happy to simply concede territory to Everton when losing the ball. The challenge is to pull them out of position with quicker play and someone with willing to carry the ball through them, rather than continually attempt to play through and around such congested lines.

Olsen's done well with everything he has had to deal with. Just need to speed things up across the pitch.

And with that City score from a corner

Our squad is still shit

Needed to work it left and right to get the 1 on 1 with the fullback. Was just starting to happen as the game opened up when he abandoned it.

Two poachers doesn't open up a low block.

"Rodriguez and Richarlison linked in double swoop by big six club. 'We want a chance of success' say South American duo".

Fuck off, they had one chance. Which game are you watching?

This is supremely frustrating. We've played exactly the way Newcastle would want us to.

Since then, when we have out first XI playing we look good.

When not, we don't.

Since the mid-60s it has been a squad game and whilst our first XI is excellent our squad isn't.

We need another couple of windows to really "compete", but you can see is coming.

I know the word "patience" has been used ofttimes in. the past and is abhorred by many, but it is what we need now!

Just a little more time.

Better than this crap.

We'll finished around 8th this season..

The reality now is we are clearly a long way off the top 6. Carlo needs to up his game for United.

Olsen is better than Pickford.
Iwobi and Siggi should be knows her near the squad.
Bernard is useless.
DCL has to be told to stay central.
Mina not good enough.
Etc
Etc
Etc

Mad starting line up and tactical set up, even worse substitutions.

No idea what he was thinking today.

Is Delph the most negative passer of a ball?

Just poor.

Everton screwed up by not having decent strikers in reserve.

We flattered to deceive for the first few games and now the rot is in even if the others return.

It's just the mentality of this club every season.

The squad just doesn't have the determination to succeed and after all the euphoria of DCL and his England success I am afraid he has been hung out to dry.

Three games, no wins and one very lucky draw. Does the same, old same old never end. Carlo it seems isn't any more capable than his predecessors even Big Sam.

All wrong.

Against Southampton we created nothing, and against a very very poor Newcastle side, we created next to nothing.

Very worrying that we can't function without Richarlison.

Request for Michael - can we have a live forum for the next game?

Wtf taking both full backs off Snd putting Tosun and Iwobi on.

I don't know what Gordon has to do to get a game.

If ever a game made pace this was it.

Bollocks

Carlo needs to work on ironing out the errors.

It'll take a while for Carlo to manage out the weaker players. Annoys me when the likes of Delph and Sig come in and fail miserably to stake a claim.

There is nothing there, is there? Awful, and I'm afraid I won't be indulging myself any more with foolish hopes.

Always a Blue, but I haven't got enough years left to waste on this indescribably frustrating club. Above all, we lack courage, and that is unforgivable.

I'm never on the live forum.. Gylfi 'treacle feet' Sigurdsson was utter shite.

I don't know how you could form that opinion today.

When you have Iwobi, Tosun and Simms on the bench... And that breath of fresh air, Bernard...

Delph. my god. Bring back Pembridge. All he did was a bit of pointing, passed the ball backwards and crossed like a tosser.

As for Carlo - Tosun? Has Gordan been caught nailing his missus?

Fkin embarrassing.

Nothing to see here.
Ineffective Everton last season is officially back.
Gomez..as clumsy as last season...always given up fouls near dangerous areas..today, he finally paid for it.
Delph. he slows everything down even after we were trailing.
Siggy man way way past his prime
Sorry JJK really shows we desperately need Coleman back.
Keep playing these players...we would be heading towards mid table at best

Mina. the list goes on.

Out-coached by Bruce who realized we had little creativity no one to pull his defense out of shape and just say, got a break then played counter attack.

Not one player showed any bravery on the ball, not one midfielder ran beyond the ball consistently to aid Calvert-Lewin. Make no mistake Newcastle are terrible, so this makes Carlo's tactics and the players performance much worse than being beaten by a good Southampton team last week.

Unacceptable.

Clearly not enough strength in depth, but why oh why didn't they take this game to Newcastle from the start?

Sickening defeat and it looks like a tough run in to Christmas. It seems like we have become so reliant on Charlie and also without Hames, no final pass or vision today.

For me Gordon should have started and no support for DCL. To have 60 odd % of the possession and get only a couple of mediocre efforts on goal, is killing this season. Gomes for me doesn't do enough and you knew as soon as Fraser was on they had capability to nick a goal.

We get up and go next week, it could be a long day v the Mancs at this rate, but surely the team must come out of this self imposed slumber?

Looking forward to after the international break when we might see Holgate, and even Gbamin in with a shout.

But it's obvious JJ Kenny isn't the answer at right back, and siggy had a mare of a 1st half was marginally better in the 2nd and needs to be moved on.It's been a year since Gomes was done by Son and he's not the same player.

Positives, was the GK and not much else, but we've got a good 1st 11, it's just the rest that needs to be cleared out

Absolutely no service to DCL, hopefully the addition of Digne and James will add some bite to our play next week. And we badly need Holgate back - Mina is a total disaster. The only positives from this game - Olsen is not bad, and DCL gets back to scoring ways.

The bubble is indeed well and truly burst.

Stick to simple formations playing players that suit the position

I always feel like Everton will never truly progress as a club until it steers away from this morbid fascination of defensive midfielders.

Most of them looked like pub team players today

Why take off natural pace and energy of the full backs?
What did he expect Tosun to do? No impact.

Playing a high line without pace in the centre of defence.

We didn't go for Fraser. Pace and energy. We didn't go for King. Pace, energy, attacking threat. Why?

It's been a bad week. Lot's to nick pick at but we need to move on and win our next game. IMO change of players and formation is needed.

I can take losing I really can. BUT the rubbish performances are unacceptable

Allan and Doucouré have been infected by the Everton curse of no energy, no motivation, no skill and no pressing

That was a shambles very similar to Southampton game

Even Townsend and Osman in the studio didn't think it was a penalty.

We certainly did not do enough to win this game but we did not deserve to lose either, as Newcastle were just as poor.

I hoped when we signed Doucoure we would see him occupy the same role he did for Watford, breaking from midfield and joining the attack but for some reason Ancelotti is playing him in a much deeper role, which I find strange. I have said in many posts Richarlison is our most important player he gets teams on the back foot, no other member of the squad does this.
This was a poor performance from players and manager alike, we gave a very,very poor Newcastle for to much respect, should have thrown more men into attack from minute 1 than trying to keep things tight and pinch a goal on the break.

With still no Richarlison for the Man Utd game it will need a massive improvement to get anything from that game. Lets face it Southampton and Newcastle are at best mid table outfits, so if both of thses can beat us it doesnt augur well till we get our suspended and injured players back.
I think most of us know we have a decent starting 11but not much else in reserve. Yet another simple ball over the top gets Mina in trouble again we need Godfrey and Holgate back in their either alongside Keane or with each other.

So was you happy with that performance?

What if we get further injuries / suspensions?

If we were playing shite and winning, no problem. But today and last week!!!!

It's worse this year somehow after all the hype we had at the start. It's even more humiliating this time.

And yes, I agree with Pat, Richarlison will likely be packing his bags come May. We can't blame him really.

Does anyone think Delph is abysmal?

He receives the ball and completely destroys any momentum. He holds the ball for an age.

I don't want him in this team. He can look decent, but looks deceive. he completely destroys any forward movement up the pitch.

A totally and utter liability.

He's fkin sheeeight. Simple as that.

The outstanding feature of our early games was movement and first touch play, a rhythmic tempo which pulled teams about.

I ask how many touches did all our players take, 3/4/5 every time adding nothing to our play? Only Calvert-Lewin used his meagre touches well.

How can any coach not adjust from a centre forward having to go against three centre backs? Only late on did the extra forward create gaps because they had an extra man to pick up. Really poor from Carlo.

Delph, Siggy, Iwobi & Gomes are just not good enough.

Mind you any club would miss the quality of James and Richarlison.

Ah well back to reality.

A wake up to us all that we still have a serious amount of dross on our books.

We need a new sponsorship deal with a cotton wool provider to make sure James doesn't get hurt.

Sigh.

What else is there to do? Perhaps an allotment, or collecting old train timetables.

All due respect to those with potential but how many of that list of 12 would start for a top 6 side?

Wilson and Fraser are not the players we should've been after, neither are good enough for top 6. This result doesn't change that.

Our formation/selection was questionable but if we play 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 the moaning arses on here would have thrown their toys out of the pram as Iwobi or Barnard (maybe both!) would have played out wide. We controlled the game but as feared lacked creativity and players making runs and our wide threats - JJK and Nkoukou - were easily contained.

I groaned when Iwobi came on but he made a couple of key passes in his time on the pitch, so fair play. Delph was solid, as was Allan. Sigurdsson provided a threat from range and if you think he stunk it up today (as he did last week), you're blinded by bias. I expected more offensively from Dacoure. DCL was starved of service until the last 10m. Olsen had a good debut and looks capable of putting Pickford under threat. Bernard played well when he came on and is clearly a better player in a more central position than on the left.

So yeah 3 points dropped and it is disappointing but not completely unexpected. All our missing players were our wide options, that's a test for any team, especially considering Ancelotti has had just one transfer window and with limited funds. So let's not throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. Digne and (hopefully) James back for Man U then Richy for Fulham.

One or two injuries and we have seen the end result, squad players coming in that are just nowhere near top half of the table level.

In my opinion we needed back up for DCL and we failed to sign it.
If we'd had Josh King today we probably would have created Newcastle miles more problems, but we didn't, once again we had square pegs in round holes and subs coming on that made no difference whatsoever.

I'm loathe to criticise Carlo but today was on him, he knows his players better than anyone and he should know the likes of Sigurdsson, Gomes and Delph should never be on the pitch together at the same time.

He had the option today to give Gordon the run out (he must be doing something awful in training) but he chose again to try and fit players in that don't work.

He does nothing. But the amazing thing is how much of the ball he has to do absolutely nothing. He does an amazing amount of nothing and always makes himself available to do nothing.

I don't know why anyone actually passes to him. You know he's going to look very calm, look very assured, and do nothing.

Not one pass seems to go forward.

So much basic stuff not getting right.

No guts, no leadership, no character - and as said by others (many times) it seems to infect most incoming players. Players generally get worse when they come to Everton, not improve, most performances have the same dour inertia to them.

A serious look is needed at the whole way the team/squad functions.

I'm also a new member on the ToffeeWeb site so Hi to you all. I've followed the site for a number of years and enjoy reading all your comments and thought it was time to add my twopennarth, for what it's worth. I don't always agree with everyone but most of the comments are very informative and I hope you will all enjoy mine. Stay safe, ToffeeWebbers.

Oh yes does anyone know if the club are doing a dvd for first 3 months of the season. Let me know, I want a copy. Good while it lasted.

Please keep safe all!

You nailed it. I ask how many touches did all our players take, 3/4/5 every time adding nothing to our play?

In a nutshell, that's the issue. And Delph is the KING at fucking around and completely destroying positive, forward movement. He's a cancer to our play.

If you're going to fuck around on the ball, please at least do it while driving forward and taking any space offered.

Delph really annoys me. More so than just about any Everton player I can recall.

No idea what Ancelotti is doing with Dacoure playing like a 2nd right back or Gomes playing like a left winger in diving boots.

The wheels come off without Richarleson.

The lack of pace, energy, creativity and movement up front is terrible. So our defensive player's try to get forward and create.

We revert to being wide open at the back. We should have pressed or sat deep. We did very little of either and looked confused.

You could see Allan asking the bench whats going on, who plays where. That is evidence of poor preparation for a plan b.

As strange as it was poor. We have thrown away our confidence and momentum. Come on Carlo. If we can't play well at least demand they stay solid and get a clean sheet.

I'm desperate to see him reproduce what he's done in the U23s but only rare glimpses so far for the first team.

I said pre-season the hope was Carlo understood the urgency of the situation, that he had one chance to produce a genuine rebuild in the window and produce a courageous, aggressive high tempo team the club has needed for decades. He hasn't done it.

The delusional bollocks that "we have a top first 11" as though the same 11 appear week in week out at other clubs could become his epitaph if this shit continues.

The Everton game, Michael.

To suggest that Gomes (who had a crap game along with every other midfielder) was responsible for that shambles.. is... er... bollocks.

Yes. Exactly friend. I couldn't agree more.

And I can't emphasize how much it gets under my skin.

Iwobe, to be fair, drove forward multiple times and is responsible for the DCL goal with a beautiful pass. He has a TON of faults, but he will push forward, take space, and rarely fucks around on the ball.

The much maligned Tom Davies will concede possession, but isn't afraid to play a ball forward.

Give me both of those players, warts and all, before Delph every single time.

I don't think it is an overreaction. When most teams are missing a player(s), they look like the same team, slightly compromised in the position(s) of those missing players.

We return to this slow motion, low energy dirge performance, that is neither offensive or defensive - and it has looked basically identical under a handful of different managers. There is no underlying chassis to the team.

Someone said it earlier - it looked like we were playing a final group game in a competition in which we were already out.

Something long term is seriously amiss here.

Do you even remember your argument keyboard hardman?

He's changed the formation and the personnel since my comment and my point was that was the wrong thing to do.

We conceded domination of possession, had more shots to defend and generally looked worse.. you're making my argument for me you cretin.

We need to offload Delph, Siggy, and Cenk (never mind Bolasie and Mo) ASAP.

What in the hell is a manager to do with midfielders who think looking this way, switching feet, looking that way, two taps, and 6 full seconds later they get rid of the ball is a good way to play footy?

What I will say is if you put a single player from my list above into the team, we're fine.

When you have Digne, Rich, and James all out at once, you have to play a more aggressive midfield. Delph and Allan should never be allowed in the same line up. Carlo can take some heat for that, and hopefully he understands you can't fill midfield with ponderous players who kill they game simply through their "style" of play. Touch touch, look look, touch touch, look look, pass.

Bernard should have started. Delph should have been on the bench if Allan was in the game. And i'd have played Gordon.

Carlo got some stuff wrong, but it's really the players who should get the criticism in my opinion.

All sacrificed on the elusive desire for control. A control that stifles. A control that we don't have the players to deliver.
Don't be a mug like your predecessors Carlo. Give us what we want:- forward thinking, high energy, risk averse football.

I Agree.

Sigurdsson on because he was the only dead ball specialist available. None of his dead ball play round a Everton player.

This season has now turned into a transition season, since it obvious that some players are not up to the job. Same old story.

Sigurdsson didn't play one through pass in the final third all game. Did not make one run into the penalty area of have one shot on target.

Kenny did not play one successful cross all game to a attacker. I

Nkounkou had to double back when he played with no runners attacking the near post all game.

Gomes did attempt to play forward passes in the final third, but was easily cut off.

Allan and Docoure' where faced with no players available for a pass except the wings.

Gomes made his usual ill timed tackle in a dangerous area.

Mina got caught on the turn as per usual.

Iowbi was slightly more effective than Bernard.

Tosun was on a mission to nothing, with no final third forward passes.

Need new players introduced who can play a through pass in the final third. Tosun, Simms and Gordon would benefit. I don't know about that a great difference with such a blunt supply. I don't know about the introduction of the latter players in the present regime. .

My immediate advice would be to get in Iseo and get rid of Sigurdsson, the main architect of Silva system as soon as possible.

Every the Commentators side kick was onto the non productive Sigurdsson in the first half.

Newcastle where not that good.

Carlo doesn't help himself playing so negatively, that was unforgivable against a team as poor as Newcastle. We started the game with 1 striker enough said. Zero for entertainment.

Newcastle played a low block with 5 defenders. Even City can sometimes struggle to play through that and we are not them, even when full strength. It's much easier to stop a team playing than to play yourself; Sam, Pulis etc have made careers realising this basic tenet. People seem to want us to zip the ball around, fire forward passes and take men on facing that defensive setup and that's exactly what Bruce wanted because we're not actually good enough to do that and would have been exposed on the break.

Consider this: remove Mane, Salah, Alexander-Arnold and Robertson from Liverpool's lineup, they'd look a lot less effective. OK they could replace Mane with Jota, but he cost £40m - more than our net spend this season (assuming James cost zero). If Carlo had another £40m to spend last summer pretty sure he would have but you can't rebuild a team in one window on a budget.

Excellent rhetorical questions.

Today was like the dark days of Roberto - possession for possession's sake.
No intent to drive forward.

That type of football is dreadful.

To use a word from last week that, for me, perfectly sums up and describes this week and last: flaccid.

It has to stop. Three weeks in a row of that and I'll be livid. Carlo better get to work this week.

We need more speed in the midfield and another striker. Until we get them in and offload the dross we have its more of the same. Preferably at least one midfielder who chips in with a few goals as well.

But getting rid of these useless bastards isn't going to be easy. They are very comfortable picking up their massive wages whilst producing zero productivity. Criminal!!!

That was a very ordinary team that beat us today. Even the team that was picked should have been good enough to win. That defeat is down to Carlo and the 'solid' players.

Hope to see James & Olsen in next week's team.

Carlo played the attritional game today and lost. A good portion of blame lies at his feet I think, despite the missing players.

Are people finally realising that Gomes does not belong on a pedestal? Decent touch and fantastic hair have elevated him above his actual talent level.

It all feels horribly familiar and with Richarlison still out next week I'd be surprised if we manage to turn over Man United. Mid-table beckons once more.

Goalkeeper outstanding.

Fought like tigers all over the pitch.

Never gave up even when trailing.

Lady Luck just not smiling on them.

Pity Man City added a third at the death to give them a flattering scoreline.

Or am I on the wrong thread..?

I agree with you re. the blocking structure. It's a fact this has become more a part of football too, even by more attacking teams when on the back foot, causing even offensively-capable teams some work.

My point with Everton however - we didn't even look like a team at least fighting to break, disturb or overcome that set up. We were totally slow, flat, over careful, unimaginative. There's no switching in play, no change of pace, no real running (on or off the ball).

Any slick combinations of a few games back - gone. Nothing tried. There looks to be a complete lack of drive, enthusiasm that goes beyond the actual players involved.

We really shouldn't be so deeply affected by missing personnel.

Delph may not be a holding midfielder but when he has played there we have been at our strongest defensively. He should have been the sole pivot.

Allan played some lovely little balls forward on occasions but he is playing way too deep to have an effect and is poor at protecting the defence.

Gomes likewise is a creative force from deep with his intelligent passing but Carlo fancies him as the next Richarlison, bizarre.

Doucoure is the only midfielder to have the legs to get beyond the frontman and is essentially box to box but Carlo plays him as a sitter as well despite another whose weakness is defending.

Today we had no goal threat or striking options so Siggy should have been the one moved forward alongside Dominic to get him closer to the goal if Carlo really doesn't rate Gordon.

Bizarre set up equals poor result

Remember Nani's red card in the CL for United a few years back. Awareness needed. Especially in your own area.

We have yet to win a match without Richarlison since his arrival in 2018. For those yet to be convinced, that statistic serves to emphasise his importance to our team. It was a frustrating afternoon.

With Manchester United our next opponents the challenge for Carlo is to find a way of stopping the rot. As others have said we need pace in the team. The only option we have in that regard for next weekend is Gordon.

Gomes, Kenny, Sigurdsson and Iwobi just aren't up to scratch. Replace these 4 with decent, hardworking players and we still might have a chance of doing something this season.

We can dress this up whichever way we want, but for the second week running we have been comfortably been seen off by an inferior group of players.

Unfortunately Carlo has not been fantastico for years, but I never thought I'd see the day when Cushion Face would do him with a string of journeymen.

Why are our fans always so quick to hand out the accolades and bouquets before we do anything of note ? It always comes back to bite us on the arse

Sad day. Not because we lost, but because once again we have lost in an inexcusable manner.

Andre Gomes is finished. He's a disgrace. I'm bored of watching that lazy bastard swing lazy legs out costing us foul after four after foul. It's not on. Post injury he's not the same player. Fuck him off. Mina can take to the bench now Holgate is back too, no excuse to constantly drift so high when you know you have no pace to get back. Stick to your strengths and defence the box. Holgate's pace is a huge help at the back.

Richarlison has a lot to answer for as well the petulant little fucker. He needs to grow up because he's as much at fault for the last 2 defeats as anyone, for not being available when fit. Without him we are toothless. Its painfully obvious that our first 11 with Coleman, Digne, James and Richarlison is a match for anyone and we'd maul Southampton and Newcastle with them but our options are horrific. The squad depth is shite and no where near top 6 let alone 4.

Kenny is dreadful, slow and clumsy and he couldn't cross the road let along a ball, he needs to go back to Shalke ASAP it's his level. Iwobi is as bad as it gets, Bernard is a hobbit and offers nowt, Gomes is finished slow and lazy. We need to beef the squad up in January and players like Isco would be a start but we need pace through the middle and out wide. Speed kills and we must be one of the slowest teams in the league. Only DCL and Richarlison have genuine pace. It's just not enough. Bizarre decision to not replace Kean as well. Very very poor decision and we're paying the price now. We could be 3 defeats on the bounce by the time Richarlison is back and 3 games that were very very winnable.

Lastly, I've read Carlo has already said Pickford is started v Utd which is mind blowing considering the performance Olson just put in. Solid, big and commanding. He was superb and Pickford is as out of form as a keeper can get.

That defeat was carlo's fault for the shite selection, piss poor formation and the even worse subs. Granted it's not like him and his best players are out but I can't help but think that Gordon starting in place of Gomes and DCL with support in a 442 and we'd have beat Newcastle even with a depleted team.

Let's hope he learns from it and keeps Pickford on the bench as we welcome back Coleman, digne and Hamez before Richarlison.

Due to injury and suspension he had to go with his two underplayed second string full-backs. Having decided on 'resting' Pickford for Olsen, he wasn't going to shake up the centre back pairing as well.

Picking Delph alongside Doucoure and Allan stiffened the midfield with the obvious tactic of Delph and Doucoure covering for JJK and Nkoukou as they attempted to be involved further forward with Allan playing a more advanced transitional role.

Unfortunately, the home side out of possession were happy to surrender territory and just choke the space in their defensive half. A horrible watch.

Without the inventive guile of James or the pace and aggressiveness of Richarlison there was no-one in Blue to carry the game to the Barcodes, run at them or open them up to break their rigid lines.

It strikes me that many in this thread have assessed the likes of Siggy and Gomes on their preconceived notions of them - good and bad - rather than how they acutally played today.

For me, Gomes was poor in an admittedly unfamiliar position, a kind of further forward wide left midfielder. Siggy was considerably better than a few call it. To suggest that the Iceman is incapable of seeing or playing the kind of incisive, insightful passes that Gomes has in his locker as suggested by some is to seriously misread the capacities of both players.

The most consistently inventive player in Blue today was Allan. Whether Carlo was bold or wreckless in his substitutions is open to question. All 3 were forward thinking, sacrificing both starting full-backs and the most ineffective midfielder (who had given up what appeared a really soft penalty).

Mina's poor alertness - stopping to challenge Fraser rather than keeping goalside of him to prevent him having a free run on goal - put paid to any comeback hopes, although DCL's goal from Iwobi's pass gave us fleeting hope. And even their 2nd goal was laced with luck how it looped up from the lunging Mina to give Wilson a tap in beyond Olsen and Keane.

Of the subs, did Tosun even touch the ball? Bernard continues to offer very little when he enters the fray. Iwobi actually had a couple of very incisive plays which again, based on preconceived notions of the players, many have seemingly ignored.

Could the pace of Anthony Gordon have been a better option than Gomes? The high-energy, quick transition and forward passing of Tom Davies a better option than Delph? The first alternative didn't get the nod from the bench. The second didn't even make the bench so we'll never know.

Hopefully Digne and James can return next week. But our understudies are not making a case for themselves to claim a starting berth based on the last two games.

Pickford
Holgate Keane Branthwaite Digne
Gordon Doucoure Allan Bernard
James DCL

How many players first touch took them forward? How many played at near walking pace? It was about courage, and those charged with advancing the ball, they had none.

Sigurdsson frequently had Kenny outside him, his passes were lazy, often poorly weighted and forced the full back to check back or readjust.

To sum his lack of bravery up. Last minute, one last corner to salvage an unexpected point and he floats the corner in, famed for his set piece prowess and he hangs it up.

Kenny really is neither here nor there as a player - an okay backup, nothing more. And while Nkounkou is a bright and exciting prospect, those writing Digne's obituary this week were a tad premature, I think.

Delph is a tidy player, but offers no creativity. Gomes was lackluster again. I'm not sure why more of the attack wasn't going through Doucoure. Sigurdsson looked semi-lively around the box, but offered no meaningful link-up between the midfield and Calvert-Lewin. Olsen looked the part - a couple good saves and offered that stoic, calming presence people have been craving. But two goals conceded in five of seven league matches this season? No way is that good enough.

However, we feel the loss of Richie most of all because (outside of DCL) he is our main goal threat. Lose either of those two and we're half the team. We lack teeth completely. Letting Kean go with no replacement was a very poor decision.

We need to find more goals from around the team. Sigurdsson isn't prolific (one decent season), Gomes/Iwobi/Bernard don't offer any real threat. Doucoure is needed in the engine room.

Maybe Tosun can help, maybe Simms can come through this year, maybe Gordon is just a spring being loaded by Carlo but they are very BIG maybes. We MUST find ‘goals' in January - ideally from the right hand side in order to allow James to go into a 10 where he'll hopefully add even more threat.

Outside of that, I think the other big problem is unfortunately Big Yerry. He should be battling Keane for the ‘strong in the air' slot, not playing next to him. The team needs more pace there, so either Holgate or Godfrey need to come in and get a run.

Hopefully just one more game without Richie. fingers crossed!

The inexcusable being justified on here.

It seemed like a whole safety first, wait for a gap to appear affair - not likely the way Newcastle sat. If there's nothing happening out wide, then someone has to change pace, move forwards, pass players, change the shape. No risk, no reward.

Not like it wasn't possible - the latter part of the game finally showed that, and DCL scored.

No drive, no spirit, no belief - a lacklustre mentality, for me.

Without Coleman, Digne, James, Holgate & Richarlison we're ordinary. But most teams in the Premier League would struggle without five of their first choice players. Only Citteh and possibly the Shite have the kind of strength in depth in their squad to overcome injuries and suspensions like ours.

Credit to DCL though for an excellent instinctive finish. Carlo could have had Gordon and Nkounkou linking on the left to provide a genuine threat and goalscoring opportunities for DCL, so I'm afraid this fiasco is down to him.

I thought he would have learned from the Southampton mistakes instead of doubling up on them with Gomes, Sigurdsson and Delph starting. To give Sigurdsson the captaincy is an absolute insult.

Old Everton selection = old Everton results. Three on the bounce next week and back to our old familiar position for Christmas.

PS Great anticipation by the mods suspending the Live Forum in anticipation of the result, thereby avoiding placing the NHS under huge additional strain from coronary and stroke call-outs.

But the fact is, Liverpool bring on Jota, Everton bring on Bernard.

Our first 11 can compete with anyone, our second 12-18 are relegation fodder.

There in lies the problem

The sideways - backwards - sideways - pass the ball in to touch - backwards sideways game we were watching from Delph, Sig, Gomes, JJK was painful to behold. At one point I thought I will count the number of consecutive forward passes we completed and gave up at two (eventually) after a few minutes.

The substitutions, I agree with most on here, were bizarre but I would just have a quiet shout for Bernard who I did not think was quite as abject as people are making out. As usual he lost the ball a couple of times and ran into trouble but he did seem to make a difference to our energy levels with his busyness, and set up a couple of crossing attempts.

Quite why we can't start playing the way we did for the last 10 minutes about an hour earlier I just don't know. Is it fear? A lack of drive? Under instruction? Anyones's guess. Pleased at least that DCL scored to help my Fantasy Team but all said and done another bad day at the office. The ladies can feel proud after their effort against ManC this afternoon unlike their male counterparts.

So - Man U, and lockdown to look forward to.

Someone's God please give me strength.

We want to be a big club, that's why we have appointed Carlo Ancelotti but we still find it hard to kick old habits.

We still go out in my opinion to stifle mediocre opponents instead of just throwing caution to the wind and letting them worry about us, that should be the case regardless who we put on the pitch, that's what the top clubs are like.

I personally hate the two holding midfielders thing we have rigidly stuck to since the David Moyes era, when it doesn't keep clean sheets then it has little value and lately to us it's overloaded us with a lack of creativity.

Be bold Everton or be prepared to stand still wearing a slightly shinier coat than normal.

It will be very interesting to see how the team is set up versus United. I think Mina will drop to the bench, especially if Holgate and/or Godfrey are available. Digne will come back in also. Would want Holgate ahead of JJK if available. Gordon needs to be started ahead of either slow coach. I cannot understand the tactic of saying that Pickford will start against Utd before seeing how Olsen did today? It may be a kick up the arse for Jordan to be dropped but what does it do for Olsen to know he could be the second coming of Big Nev and it wouldn't mean he'd get a run in the team?

We had all the goalkeepers available for selection.
We had the two center halves we paid 60m quid for. We had a left back who had been deemed a wonder signing.
We had Siggy and Gomes playing who cost us 70m.
We also had the "New Reid and Bracewell" in the middle of the park.
In front of that lot we had The leagues highest scorer.

Digne. Seamus and James didnt play up there at Christmas, but we still won comfortably So why is their absence the reason we lost this time ?

Progress ?????

These excuses just rub salt into the wounds after such a painful defeat

I'm not excusing today but we were missing our three best players and of course that is likely to make a difference. The others (and Carlo) should have done better though.

Today the 1st team was going through the motions in hope mor than belief and desire.

The sad facts is this is the worst Toon side in a long time, and Yet Everton played as if they were playing a European top team.

Seriously big week and a big game next week. Next week we need a different game plan. The spark has gone out for sure and I can't seen where the spark to reignite will come from. I hope Anthony Gordon, starts next week, but we are playing too pedestrian and the opponents can walk to press out attacks as they are so slow.

Very few positives but the GK, looks safe, but next week, the team needs some spark and confidence and believe Everton, can win.

Next week I'd stick with Olsen, but let's see what Carlo does.

Unacceptable piss poor showing that, could of easily fell asleep watching that rubbish.

I will defend Delph in that he didn't have space or passing options to drive forward. Siggy started to have a few shots instead of attempting the impossible through ball.

I'm not criticising Nkounkou but I wanted him to be busier. To be a nieve young full back that simply wants to get forward and attack. He actually played sensibly in not wanting to neglect his defensive duties. This is a positive for the near future. Just needs more experience and understanding of when to attack or not.

Good to see Tosun has recovered. Olsen given a chance. Hopefully answered a few Carlo Q's about personal and trust.

We were missing our supply line today. No Digne, Coleman, Richarlison or Rodriguez means no service to DCL. It's not rocket science.

Instead of them, we had 2 rookie full backs playing (both good prospects but not yet at the level of the players missing). The manager clearly has no faith in Bernard and Iwobi, so he tried to keep it tight and played Gomes and Sigurdsson in a narrow midfield. This plan was undone by a soft penalty award, so the manager then had to turn to Iwobi, Bernard, Tosun etc to no avail.

In any case, I would suggest Gomes, Sigurdsson, Bernard and Tosun are finished at Premier League level (Iwobi did at least offer something when he came on.) They'll all eventually get moved to the States, or Turkey, or Portugal or whatever.

You can't polish a turd. Our fringe players are either shite or raw. The manager is showing the board that we need reinforcement.

Hope nothing is up.

All we can do is hope, as we always do, that the slump can be corrected sooner rather than later.

A good analysis of what happened and what should have happened.

James, while brilliant, is brittle and could be out at any stage. We have no decent backup.

Richarlison will always be targeted and will inevitably be sent off or injured again this season. We have no decent backup.

We rely on DCL for goals. We have no decent backup.

Digne. as we saw today, no decent backup.

Luckily Olson is decent backup. He's going to be needed. But even he can't save this lot.

Maybe it was because he didn't score when he went up front for the injury time corner? Yeah, that must be the reason Carlo is dropping him for the Man U game.

We nearly had it with Bobby bringing in or promoting Rom, Geri, McCarthy, Barkley and Stones. With the requisite dough to replace the entire old guard things might be very different now.

Thing is Carlo is a good manager but no revolutionary and like his predecessors will not be able to polish a turd.

Overall, we were poor and this result as well as last weeks shows we are very much lacking quality, game changers when required.

Utd next week, who knows?

Exactly, Delph didn't slow it down he was waiting for someone to make a move but they were all stationery

The last two games have highlighted our shortcomings, but we knew they were there at the end of the transfer window, so we should not not be too traumatised when they manifest themselves.

There is always plenty of chat about our worst and best ever players, but I would put forward Fabian Delph as our most boring. How I hate that stylish twirl on the ball followed by the backwards pass.

We had no one to get past their backline, no one making any movements and still we stuck with the same personnel's until the game was dead and buried.

Today was all about how we we're gonna react after the poor result and performance last week. And we never saw one. Flat from the first whistle to last. Against a poor side which let's be honest they are. We couldn't get a shot away in the first half. Shows how much we miss James, Richarlison, Digne and Coleman. Olsen and Calvert Lewin only players who played well.

The likes of Iwobi, Bernard and Sigurdsson have all blown their chances to come in and show Ancelotti they can be there when one of James or Richarlison are out. A combination of 83 million on Iwobi, Sigurdsson and Delph. Shocking recruitment.

The fact we still also have Tosun at the club too says it all. We offer big wages and contracts to players who are not arsed in the slightest. And also Jonjoe Kenny is NOT a replacement for Coleman.

Heard some fans say this week that Yerry Mina is our best centre back. If thats the case to them. We are in a lot of trouble than I even thought we are. Man is clueless majority of the time. Holgate or even Godfrey start before him in my eyes.

Another poor performance.

So I'm being honest and saying it as, as I see it and you have your view, which is fine.

The Geordies, know their football like we Evertonians do.

Newcastle are poor this season, Everton, a month ago would have won today. But the squad devoid of its best players has shown the limits of this squads strength in depth.

Today overall the Everton team, didn't have the belief to win this game. There's no excuses today, to lose in that manner, but it's a work in progress and we are still third, which all considered is better than expected.

This performance today for me, the positives are Olsen and DCL, in the goals again.

But next Saturday let's see if the squad, can get motivated and play better, and get a victory.

Regarding Jordan he now knows he HAS to eradicate his errors because Olsen today looked like a top international goalkeeper.

Delph is Delph, a very poor man's Gareth Barry.

Sigurdsson was ok until his legs turned to jelly about a year ago and he's finished as a Premier League top performer.

Allan you'd think will be at his best when Doucoure improves his levels and James and Richarlison are back fit but Allan without those players at a high level is pretty much a very limited effect player, not creative and isn't going to offer anything going forward.

How we somehow managed to go from having about twenty quality wingers under Bobby Martinez to now currently not possessing a single genuine winger that can comfortably hit the byline, work that one out!

So what's all this talk of Carlo going back to Pickford next week ? Is he trying to destroy the confidence of both players because he's seen Mariniho play those games at so-called top clubs ?

Strikes me our manager is already out of his depth and has a 'butterfly' approach to team selection. He won't last long at this rate ! None of them do.

Best comment on the thread. How would Liverpool cope without Robertson, Trent, Mane and Salah?

Carlo's not a magician. No manager is. There's an illness at Everton at the moment (and at some other clubs) where the fault always lies with the manager. The heat is never on the players. They can turn up, do fuck all, earn a fortune and they get a free pass. They can even do it under several managers and it will never be their fault.

The focus today should be on our creative players who were missing in action. Are Gomes and Sigurdsson capable of passing the ball? Yes. Are they capable of passing it forward? Yes. Well why did they either give it away, or lay it off backwards or sideways every time they received the ball? They were both playing behind the striker!!

Bernard came on, what did he do to justify his wage? At least Iwobi got on the ball a bit and created a goal - he stepped up this time.

The players I have mentioned have all been in and out of the team under Carlo. They should be fighting for their places, but they are going through the motions.

Blame the manager. Blame the tactics. I know who I blame - the shithouses who go missing every time we play away from home. The same shithouses who have done the same thing for 3/4 managers now. The same ones who shit themselves every time we play a top 6 team.

We'll be ok again once we get Digne, Coleman, Rodriguez and Richarlison back in the team. Until they do come back, God help us...

I don't think anyone is naive enough to expect that with a couple of special players missing, we would just carry on as if they hadn't been missed at all. What we do expect is those who have been given a starting berth, or coming off the bench even, put a decent shift in.

Instead what did we see? a bunch of highly paid spineless, clueless, rudderless dickheads going through the motions as if it was a friendly or Testimonial where the result didn't really matter. They didn't even look like they had ever trained together before.

Who do we play next? Manure! Who seem to be getting their act together better than we have. God help us, but at least we have a couple back.

More unfortunately still, Richarlison might end up leaving before them.

Perhaps weirdest of all, Bolasie might just have made a positive difference today.

First 11 very strong, but not much depth. How close are Simms and Dobbin to first team appearances?

That's the enormity of the clearout and the job Ancelotti and Brands have. I suspect in two seasons times none of those lot will be at the club. Some we'll receive offers for others will run down there contracts.

We'll need to be patient but ultimately be summer 2022 Carlo will have all his own players.

Iwobi stunk the place out at Saints but IMO he did more than both Gomes and Sigurdsson in the minutes he came on, putting a good ball into the box, before making a similar pass that found DCL for the goal. He's clearly not the long term answer but I think he'd offer a lot more centrally and would do better than Gomes or Sigurdsson.

I am glad we dropped Pickford. With or without the Newcastle fans in the ground. This was the kind of game where he'd lose his head and have a brain fart. Olsen looked assured and he'll no doubt be getting more games this season.

A very depressing game and it's clear that we're a very different side when Richarlison, James and our 1st choice fullbacks are missing. We have the same fragility at the back but offer very little going forward.

Just watching MOTD2 and none of our October goals feature in Goal of the Month.

Just because players at other clubs can be confident and skilled enough to lash in a screamer or two, or confident and skilled enough to create an accurate passing/running chance for an accomplished finish doesn't mean our dead-ball-mainly scrambled goal approach is worthy of the typical media derision does it?

Just asking, for a friend.

We are 3rd. We are in the 1/4 final of a cup.

Of the 14 players on the pitch today, only 4 were Ancelotti signings, the other 10 weren't. Those 10 haven't really covered themselves in glory previously, have they?

I am not blindly defending Ancelotti, he has made mistakes in my opinion, what manager hasn't?

However, we are miles better, overall, with him in charge than we have been for a long long time.

Plus, no Coleman, no Richarlison, no Digne, no James, no Holgate. Any team would struggled with 5 nailed on regulars not available.

Long term injuries to Tosun, Gbamin and 3 right backs not available last game.

Add the media witch hunt to all of this, and yes, we have dropped off.

The man appears to know what he is doing - we are going in the right direction, we have a great 1st team, but not a great squad - that, as most know, will take a few windows to sort out. Many managers, many players. many systems have been rolled out with these players.

Ancelotti is a good manager, he has improved us massively, but he is just a manager, he cannot change things overnight. If he was here just for the money, why not just go to China or America.

We are better for him being here and the players he has attracted.

Koeman, Silva, Allardyce or Ancelotti ?

No brainer really, for me at least!

He'll sort it.

Unfortunately not! My sports were boxing and kickboxing, but at near 50, not any more! Sill keep the training up though! Played in the Zingari league as a teenage keeper, must have been the shortest there at 5'10. But my sporting achievements are modest! Hey ho!

My son messaged me when the team was announced to say he literally had no idea what the plan was for the game. Unfortunately, it appears the players didn't either. Ancelotti had a shocker.

My Name is Fred and I'm an evertonian, help.

We are still 3rd after 7 games with the mighty Man U 8 points behind us and City, Arsenal and Chelsea still below us.

On the other hand like most posters I an concerned about Carlos tactics and team selection in the last 2 games.

Our strength has been the interplay between the full backs and the wide players where we have been able to open up the "park the bus merchants" that we always seem to have a problem with.

One of our weaknesses has been the lack of goalscorers in the team apart from Richy and DCL.

James was part of that solution and Siggy used to be that man.

The only other player I can think of who could help with that is Gordon and I cant understand why Carlo is so reluctant to give him a game.

I felt it was right to play a strong MF today but go 4-4-2 with Gordon and DCL up front and with Nkoukou and JJK overlapping.

We need at least 2 upront to pressure their defence and keep the game up the pitch.

With only one up front they can pick out the long pass and hit on the break like they did for Mina's own goal.

I thought Gomes in particular had a 'mare again today and just couldnt string the game together.

Likewise Doucoure is supposed to be box to box which doesnt mean the 6 yard box to the halfway line.

Last week we didnt show up but today we should have won that game comfortably but just couldnt impose ourselves on the game due to tactics and poor players.

If we can just get a second wind till January and then clear the decks and get some proper quality in we stand a chance.

If we don't then it will be another 7th or 8th position if we are lucky..

The only good things coming out of today were Olsons performance, Keans continuing improvement and DCL's sniffing out of chances.

Drop this guy now and it will hit his confidence, while at the same time saying Pickford will still walk back in the team, very poor management if Pickford comes back in after only one game dropped.

Be interesting to have a poll who should be in goal for the utd game.

P.s Lyndon, you have Pickford in the starting 11 and on the bench as well in the lineups.

He knew Newcastle will play low blocks defensively and counter attack with Saint-Maximin, who has both pace and size, together with Almiron and Wilson. Without James and Rich it would be difficult to unlock their defence. Also, knowing that our defenders are slow, Doucoure and Allan cannot go too far up when attacking in case of losing possession. We probably go for a clean sheet and wait for set-pieces opportunities. I would say the 1st half went on as planned.

This is the kind of game which team score first would win. The penalty was a joke. I think Gomes should not stand still but approach the ball and clear with a header. From that point onwards is a cat and mouse game. If you don't put more attackers in, you're gutless and get slammed. The moment you put more players upfront the higher chance you get countered which was the case.

So I don't think Carlo is tactically outwitted. He made a bold change to replace Pickford. It all comes down to players quality, plan execution and luck of course.

Playerswise, Gomes is not in form. He passes the ball behind Nkoukou when he was making a run. The weight of the passes is also inaccurate. Siggy is better than him at the moment. He had a few shot attempts which was not far away. Last week his shot hit the crossbar. The goal will come if he keeps trying. Iwobi, too inconsistent. Bernard did alright. He would perform better if Digne was playing instead of Delph.

We are still a few players short to be a real contender of top 6.

They've got better cover players, because they're further ahead with 'the project'. We're all disappointed, but let's get the Man U game out of the way and hopefully get a few bodies back.

My concern is Gomes who looks like the injury has finished him.

It's easy in Football Manager though isn't it?

Why the fuck do we always refer to the RS whenever we are looking to excuse our own inadequacies ? What the fuck has it got to do with them ?
Those asking the mealy mouthed question of what they would do without 4-5 players need only look back to the cup game earlier this year when they rested 9 men.... Is that answer clear enough for you ?

Anyway. Fuck Liverpool. This is an Everton site.

I despair at some of the reasoning here. Point out that we won up there without James, Seamus and Digne ealier in the year and you will get the "yeah but we are missing Richarlison...Our best player" It's as if they have completely forgotten that when we were playing the worst football in living memory, Richarlison was very much part of that.

"BREAKING NEWS"...We are going to get injuries and suspensions all season. We are not asking the club cat to cope with them. We are paying a "professor" 60m quid to deal with them.

We cant keep praising the manager for victories and blaming the players for not being good enough when we lose...That argument is for the birds. Player for player, the team we put out on Saturday is miles better than the Newcastle one.

Real Madrid and Bayern Munich did not turn their noses up at James because he doesnt have the class. They lost interest in him because they do not believe they can get him on the field often enough to justify keeping him...That's another thing people are going to have to get used to.

Only player I thought looked up for in was Dacoure. Gomes was woeful, and for me Allan was playing too far up the pitch

Carlo got this one wrong. Not least by taking off Kenny (who was pants though) which for me cost the second goal

“you described the the performance as excellent”

Oh did I? Where?

This was my comment which was critical of the changes:

The 4-3-2-1 formation was working fine. We weren't under any pressure and had most of possession. Correct sub of Bernard for Gomes when we needed more quickness of thought and foot in there.
Needed to work it left and right to get the 1 on 1 with the fullback. Was just starting to happen as the game opened up when he abandoned it (reference to Nkounkou sub).

Two poachers doesn't open up a low block (bringing on Tosun).

IMO the problem was a lack of courage on behalf of the 5 CM to go beyond DCL or even run into the box. God knows why because there was plenty of cover.

A shithouse performance from them and will give CA food for thought.

Having said all that the players he put out then didn't perform. As many have said Gomes is too slow and off form and others coming in haven't shown why they should be first choices. The manager can't be held responsible for players not performing. That's down to the players, but he can't take the same approach next game. Maybe having Luca back and Holgate at RB might be better? Maybe Godfrey instead of Mina? Rashford, etc will kill us with pace otherwise. Mina turns like an oil tanker and Kenny struggled even against Newcastle.

One player that maybe could have solved all this was Gordon? He can play just like Richie and get us into the final third, but he doesn't even get a chance. With Nkonkou he could have given DCL the service he needs. Unfortunately the manager seems to be falling into the trap of trusting old heads instead of young talent. I hope that changes for United or else we will lose again.

Also the run of the ball and that bit of luck you need away when 4 of are better players this season were missing was never going to happen. After the Derby it wasn't going to be long before a decision or 2 went against us.

Going on the front foot and attacking them from the off may have been better tactics but the performance at Southampton put paid to that imo.

I know we had 4 starters out yesterday but I did not understand the team selection. Newcastle were set up defensively to soak up pressure and counter attack. We handed them the initiative from the get go. Their back 5 was under zero pressure all game. DCL received no support, was outnumbered and surrounded. We had 5 players all doing the same job in midfield. Cue lots of me to you sideways and backwards passing. No pace. No one taking the game to them. No one trying to get in behind.

Why not start with Bernard and/or Gordon instead of Gomes and Sigurdsson? Gomes and Sigurdsson should never be in the same XI btw.

The dodgy pen changed the game as until that point it had 0-0 written all over it.

Big game on Saturday.

Word on the refereeing - how come whenever we commit a foul it seems to be a yellow and yet the oppo have to commit 4 or 5 fouls to get one? I don't rate any of these refs.

I can't disagree with any of that. I will add my oft-opined view that there's something more behind all this, a dyed in the wool, deeply ingrained cultural thing that frankly baffles me.

Somehow, through several managers, perhaps ordinary but different in their way, and despite a good number of personnel changes by now, this team conspires to produce a shite default performance given any excuse, that is so consistent in nature, it looks almost coached.

Supported only Everton my whole life so don't know the prevalence of this view by other fans of their own clubs. I do know such fans often have a less informed but similar overview of Everton as perennial under performers, nearly men - a head-patting take of a "Nice", non-threatening team.

Or at least they did. I don't remember such widespread condemnation of us or anyone else as a dirty team since Leeds in the 70s (OK Wimbledon). A thread yesterday on another site about a different match/team was unbelievable.

Exaggerated as it is, this aspect can stay for me. Great that we ruffled enough feathers in five games. If only we'd continued, at least with the endeavour - if not the results.

All but the best players will be ground down by this enigma within the walls. They look unfit, lethargic, lost, leaderless. Carlo alone will not fully fix it - nor will new signings, for any duration.

There is no spirit. There are no guts. That strange, esoteric "History" thing - and I will mention the RS. It's why they have done well in Europe (and expect to) in thirty years of not winning the league, with lesser teams than they have now. It's why they always beat us.