Is Ellis Simms ready?

If we sell Richarlison, we will need an adequate replacement or we will find ourselves unable to score enough goals to stay in the Premier League. Simms as an alternative is laughable.

As Trevor very subtly says, he is up against it to be the Top 6 striker we need to aspire to. However, I don't like writing players off because they can improve their game and progress, and Simms is still young enough. He's overcome a few injuries and resumed an upward trajectory.

He did well at Blackpool, now at Hearts too. He's stepped up to the plate and made a difference at those clubs. Not every loanee can claim that. It's all good experience and will give him a foundation to push on.

It should be an interesting pre-season to see whether the likes of Simms, Dobbin, Gbamin, Davies and others can make a case for themselves. I think Frank Lampard is pretty open-minded and will give players who deserve it a chance.

If I started a career as a roofer and was written off for not being amazing on my first day, at 21, I'd feel like I was being judged too early. I'm not saying Simms will be amazing but he's 21 and has played one game at this level.

Gordon was dreadful on loan in the Championship, as was Branthwaite. Based on this logic, we should have binned them both off.

Contrary to Trevor @1, with all due respect, we all have different opinions on players, and I believe that, given the chance of a good run, Ellis would still find the net, as I believe that the goals are the same size, irrespective of Division or League.

Having said that, maybe another loan at Championship level would answer any doubts about his ability that some may have.

One thing I do agree with Trevor, that he isn't the quickest admittedly, but he is no slouch either. Having the knack to be in the right position, and knowing where the goal is can negate the need for being a speed merchant.

I don't think we are in a position (financially, sadly) to be too gung-ho in paying over the odds (as most are) for a striker (Moise Kean springs to mind), where the goals return doesn't match the outlay.

Again we have the uncertainty over Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin, and whether either will still be with us next season. Hopefully, between Frank and Kevin Thelwell, they have a few targets lined up that will both improve us and stay within the bounds of FFP.

I wouldn't mind a punt on that lad from the States (Castellanos), similar to Ellis in many ways, prolific scorer at a lower level, if either Richarlison or Calvert-Lewin move on. He wouldn't break the bank and could turn out to be a bargain.

I watched him 3 times for Hearts last season, he did hold the ball up really well and unlike Calvert-Lewin, he is not afraid of a shot from outside the box.

But he is not good with the ball over the top, and he does lack pace. But I wouldn't give up on him just yet. Personally, I think there is a player there and at worst we could get £10M to £12M for him.

We need someone who is proven. Simms would be a gamble. Lampard can't gamble and wait. He'll be sacked if we don't have a regular goal scoring striker.

Attracting and affording such a player is the issue. Selling Richarlison and/or Calvert-Lewin and acquiring new owners might be the reset we need too. Otherwise, it's more of the same.

The Premier League (and our own history) is full of good players who didn't break through until 22 to 24-ish. Our history is also full of limited players with massive hearts who did okay.

For me, it's all about attitude. If he wants it, he could have it. No matter how much the haters want to write the kid off.

You have given us a complete history of Ellis from when he joined the club up to now and I go along with your suggestion of putting him out on loan next season with a Championship club and seeing how he does there.

How long has he got with Everton? He's not on big wages at the moment so we have nothing to lose by seeing how he does if he goes on loan.

On that game at Chelsea, no player should be judged on one game. He was subbed at half-time, but had been used as a lone striker up front. Some of the best struggle when used like that – never mind a young lad making his debut.

In boxing, styles makes fights and his stature and style may be effective against some centre-backs and not others. I could see his style being unsettling to the John Stones type centre-back. Worth a chance in my opinion.

Yes, I think Ellis deserves a run in the team; we score a painfully low amount of goals most seasons and, since Lukaku's last haul of 20 odd, it's been dreadful. Even Moyes's much-heralded 4th place was with a negative goal difference.

He has scored a few goals the past 2 seasons on loan but his overall contribution to the team is not up to scratch.

He is a big lad but doesn't – or hasn't – used his size to advantage. Centre-halves have invariably kept him in check and most of his good work happens outside the box.

Hearts are doing everything and are desperate to get him back this season; however, for both him and us, if we could loan him out to a good Championship club, it would certainly determine if we should we keep or sell.

And if he wants to earn more, he can invest in my latest venture embracing the caper that is sustainable living and interesting none other than Prince Charles: "Edible sombreros for donkeys" – could be a real winner given dangerous man-made climate change affects the equine community as well.😂😂😂

I think some players reflect what's around them and can make the step up even if they didn't rip it up when on loan in a lower division – Gordon and Branthwaite are good examples, as Si (4) pointed out.

And going back further, Ross Barkley too. Unless memory is playing tricks, he wasn't great on loan either.

I know there's instinct and opinion involved and we all see it different, but I'm cautious of judging potential too early. And there's a difference between looking at potential and individual performances in games.

Players develop at different stages. Rarely do you get a freak like Rooney who is ready made at 16 years old.

Others come good young, but most are into their 20s until they're ready.

So over to those who've seen more of this lad than me for judgement and view.

Having watched the goals he's scored, it's obvious he has confidence, good spatial awareness, and knows where he should be in and around that 6-yard box. He also scores from outside the box.

There's only one way to see if his skills can transcend his present level and that's to give him a try at a higher level. But I'm sure there'll be several more qualified within the club, than those of us on here, that will have a better idea than us.

That's when it tends to go wrong. Rodwell and Barkley spring to mind. They weren't managed or coached correctly, in my opinion.

A good example is how Guardiola managed Foden. Now I am not for one minute comparing individual talent but, when the media were scrambling for Foden to play every minute every week a few years ago, Pep just ignored them and managed his transition into the senior game as and when he saw fit.

Maybe a spell in the Championship would help but I won't hold my breath.

Re your last paragraph, well, Lampard and his coaches should be more qualified than the rest of us but how many of us saw the line-up versus Crystal Palace with Gomes in the team and thought or said “What the fuck is he doing?”

Luckily, he saw the massive risk he had made and substituted him with Dele for the second half.

In recent seasons, the likes of Crouch and Djzeko didn't fare too badly but we have had a few underachievers, like Niasse and Tosun.

Simms may do well if given a run in the team and under the guidance of Lampard but young players get impatient and he may not hang around.

The one thing that's surprised me reading the comments, is that Simms lacks pace. Whenever I have watched little bits of him playing for the Under-23s, it has never looked like he wasn't quick enough imo.

I'd keep him till Christmas, and try and slowly introduce him as an impact sub; if this isn't working, then maybe send him out on loan again.

If we did this, it might be a lot easier to decide if he will ever become a Premier League striker, and would help determine if the club would want to extend his contract before sending him out on loan again?

(Just reading that last paragraph shows how much power the players have now got. If he does well, there's a chance he might not want to re-sign, because free agents can make an absolute fortune these days.)

Frank and his staff won't be long finding out if they have a future at the club. Simms has skill, at 6'-3", not bad for a striker. I don't know if he has pace, he scored a few nice goals for Hearts, scored against Celtic, but the Scottish league is poor, and the calibre of players around him wouldn't be quality either.

We saw a few glimpses of Dobbin last season; in my opinion, he looked promising and definitely good enough for our bench.

Well, I'll eat my hat! Ee-aw! :-)

Simms or Broadhead? Keep Broadhead definitely.

"Here's an opportunity – show me what you can do pre-season. If it goes well, I'll give you 6 months as back-up striker and you are going to be used – playing off the bench and starting in the League Cup. If you take that opportunity, great; if it shows that you're not ready yet, then it's out on loan in January."

Realistically, the candidates for such a position are likely to be either youngsters who are pretty raw or stalwarts who are pretty useless.

Ideally Simms would go to the Championship on loan and bag 15-20 goals. Which would either show he's ready for more time for us or make him a £15M asset. But perhaps he's able to offer more than Rondon?

I'm not that convinced he is. Whenever I've watched him, he tends to drift out of games for long periods before coming alive with the occasional chance. He can definitely score a few goals but his all-round game is so-so, though it has improved at Hearts.

I think I'd maybe send both him and Dobbin to the Championship next season and whoever does best can come back in January to start bedding in and getting minutes.

Look how Gordon got on, it was only when he experienced first-team football did he actually mature and flourish.

I think, however, Lampard ain't the manager that will use him in matches for decent lengths of time… so we probably will never know, and we will sell him on.

Out of both Simms and Dobbin, I always thought Dobbin had that something more about him but, like I say, Simms could kick on and Dobbin could stall – we just do not know; far too early to write Simms off yet.

What they should have is a 6-month loan option, instead of a full season.

After the World Cup break, teams might need to recall some players back, in the January window, for the tougher second half of the season, with FA Cup ties to deal with as well. Yhat would allow us to loan Simms out and, if needed, recall him for the second half of the season.

We have just lost Rondon and Tosun so we need cover from either Broadhead, Simms or Dobbin or all three unless we can find another striker… but, IMO, better the devil you know.

Highly unlikely. They will bring in another overpaid bum to wait out his 3-year contract then leave for nothing, achieving only a huge wad in his bank account!

We were struggling throughout the team last season, particularly up front. This would have been the opportunity to give him a run and see what he is made of.

The decision was taken for a further loan, not dissimilar to Moise Kean. These players need a run of games to build confidence and gel into the team; one game here and there isn't going to be successful.

Simms may fit the description of a potential goalscorer if he has a good preseason that impresses Frank Lampard and his coaching staff.

Jay #32, we haven't lost Rondon. He's under contract for one more year.

DK #5, Castellanos is the best striker in MLS at 23, but $15 million he is way more than a punt. Reportedly Leeds and Burnley both looked at his price tag and backed off. Our new DOF helped develop Castellanos at NYCFC, and I've read nothing to indicate he's planning a move to bring him here.

Joe #13, Lookman wasn't cutting it for us, and much as I liked him, I can't criticize our giving up on him. Don't forget he subsequently failed at Leipzig and Fulham as well. Three years later he finally matured and may have found a permanent home at Leicester, but it was a long time coming.

Worth a go.

It would be good to see us invest in one of these plus, say, Cyle Larin on a free (we've talked about him before) with Dobbin on the bench and Simms given a chance to develop on loan.

This seems to leave us in a good position - although the fact I've just drunk a bottle of Tempranillo means there may be problems with my logic.

One goal every 224 minutes in the Scottish Premiership is nowhere good enough. Also, just one assist in 1,121 minutes.

Send him on loan to the best team that will start him. He has too much to learn.

I just don't see a Premier League player in him - he's nowhere close to the athleticism of the likes of DCL and athleticism is a minimum requirement in our current league.

Probably still too raw to be expected to hit the ground running at Premier League level. A slightly more high profile loan move to one of the bigger Championship teams would be ideal.

Some of the comments above though – I remember seeing similar regarding a certain England International called Dominic.

Yet we all love the game, but should we question our own sanity, by advocating it, by virtue of going to games ?

Haven't seen any of the strikers you mentioned, but of course you know how I'd feel about Larin on a free. I read yesterday that Forest is in for him. I'd be delighted to see us pip that guy.

I can't agreed more with what you said for Simms for the upcoming season (regardless of the situation with DCL &/or Richalison), i.e. spending a full season as a frequent starter with a Championship Team.

(Blackpool again perhaps? I am still happy with how they helped made Seamus' bones a decade ago, but not sure if Simms is the cup of tea of Michael Appleton, their new Head Coach).

Best case scenario, IMHO, is to find a Relegation-Fighting/Mid Table Championship Team who can afford to start Simms 20+ to 30+ games over the course of the season.

Not only would he be thrown into the trenches fighting first-hand daily for a place in the team (no free lunches, young lad!) against veterans (on the training ground &/or in games) who are working for their next contracts (& professional lives), but also he would get an increasing-level of competitions at the Championship that approaches Premier League level (you said it right that English Championship has overtaken Scottish Premiership as the next best league in the UK after Premier League).

If Simms take on all those things that would be thrown at him with strides, it would bring huge dividends to him, on his developments both from a skills, physical and intangibles perspective (mentally & professionalism). Not to mention the increase in his valuations at the market that you have addressed, should he be sold next summer.

(Quick Tangent: if only we could have done the same with Broadhead when he was 19 or 20. We would have known better and earlier whether he is good enough for us once and for all, with better opportunities to drive his valuations up for better sales proceeds)

Fingers crossed that Thelwell and his team can find Simms such a home.

Pace comes in a number of forms.

Some have instant and rapid acceleration, but they tend to be one-trick ponies. Think Lineker and Owen. Ball in behind and win the race. Good finishers but not particularly good at much else. And once the hamstrings go, that's pretty much them done.

There are those who have a quick change of pace and beat a player by buying those 5 or 10 yards. Not especially rapid, but the change beats a player. Anthony Gordon is good at that.

Then as you describe, those who don't necessarily have the acceleration but have the pace once into their stride. More a defender thing, but they make for good recovery players. Or for forwards and midfielders, good pressing players.

All opinion obviously, but I liked your assessment of Ellis Simms, Tony. It gives me more of a picture of the type of player he is as I haven't seen a lot of him. Having a strong shot is a good thing. Something Calvert-Lewin doesn't particularly have. Maybe they could compliment each other in an Andy Gray-Graeme Sharp kind of way??

Now I'm getting nostalgic. It must be too much sun!

Either that or Everton withdrawal symptoms. Come on August, where are you?

Pace is not essential, Kane is a prime example. (Incidentally another feller who was sent out on loan a few times.)

If we can't play him more than a few times, then I would leave him at Hearts for another season and watch his progression – they will be playing Europa League next season. There is plenty of time for him.

As for Rondon, he got himself fit and I think he is fine as an impact sub. When we need the ball to stick, he can do a job.

As others have said, much depends on whether we lose our crown jewels and our financial situation. Coupled with the possible take-over (and FFP), our budget will dictate just what we can do.

It is clear though that we lack goals. Gordon, Gray, Gomes, Doucoure, Allan, and Coleman have failed to contribute very much in that respect. We have relied upon Richarlison's miss-hits and waited far too long for Calvert-Lewinsky to hit form. Townsend got some early-on. (thank God) and our centre-halves chipped-in. Mykolenko proved that he can score.

Without goals from the other areas, we will struggle again. I would like to see Dobbin, who gives us something different but he has hardly had a look-in since Benitez left.

With young players, you have to accept they all develop at different stages and mature as footballers at different ages. Those who have coached young players will understand that.

Rarely do you get a ready made Rooney at 16. They are once in a generation types of players. We need to blend experience with youth and be patient with the vast majority of young players.

The goal contribution thing is also very valid for where we are. Sorry to harp on about the 80s, but I point to the 87 title winning side. I haven't googled so I'm putting myself out there to be corrected. Our leading scorer that season was Trevor Steven with 14 goals right? I went to every home game and many away ones that season, so I should know, but I've never been a statto and the memory fades. But the contribution from the rest of the team won us the title in my recollection.

It's a valid point because that team was decimated by injuries to Howard Kendall's first choice team and, in my opinion (again), wasn't a patch on the 84-85 champions. But arguably a higher yet less glorified achievement by Kendall to win us the league.

Does he deserve a chance, yes.

Is he better than the other forward players we currently have, no.

Does he fit Franks preferred pressing game, no.

Should he be used ahead of Rondon as a backup option, yes.

Could he help change our team from Premier league stragglers to a stable mid-table team, possibly.

Strikers need service. Like Dom, he's not going to create goals from nothing but he can get on the end of crosses and be involved in the build up.

I always find the question, "is he good enough for the Premier league" almost impossible to answer until they are given a chance and find a team who's style of play fits.

Both Rondon and Tosun are good enough for the Premier league. But team's that play a certain style which doesn't translate as 'top 6' calibre.

Kane is not a sprinter but when he runs at pace with or without the ball not many player's would catch him.

Agreed, if Simms isn't going to play 15 games for us he's better off out on loan playing regular competitive football.

Hearts would be a great place, if he's going to continue to play regularly.

It amazes me why Everton pay good money employing recruitment/scouting/ D.O.F people when a quick glance on here could save them £millions.
If the TW experts decide whether a player is going to make it or not then why bother.
Looking at some of the ex non league / lower league players currently making a decent fist of the Premier League it makes you wonder.
I remember late 60's early 70's Man City signed a player from Bath he was almost pension age but had a good career in the then first division his name (no not JR Hartley)
was Tony Book if there was a glue factory using old footballers he'd have been gone years before.

Until he is given a chance we will never know.

He's definitely a slow burner, but last season you could see further developments in his movement and hold-up play, and at last he's realised he's allowed to put his head on the ball.

I think he'll continue his slow improvement in the coming season. He may not ever be our No 1 striker, but he could be a very capable squad player.

When I think about the money and wages we've paid for the likes of Niasse, Tosun and Rondon, then Simms can hardly do much worse and may save us a fortune.

“He has pace, he's lightning. You can give him a bad ball and he'll make it into a good ball. That's an attribute not many people have and when he gets into those positions, he can put the ball away.”

Given the position we are in, I would like him to be given opportunities next season by Lampard. I have a feeling that he will surprise quite a few of us here.

He's a goal scorer; every kind of goal: running away from defenders, finding spaces, tight spaces, defenders hanging on him, left foot, right foot, headers. And always showing for the ball.

The most impressive thing about Ellis is how quickly he gets the ball under control to smack it. He does this so often, so routinely, it looks simple.

He never appears nervous with the ball at his feet.

But I'm in the group rather see him getting heavy minutes on loan next season, if the alternative is a few minutes here or there off our bench.

Whatever the level he has been, the pattern has been similar, a first he takes a little while to adapt, shows flashes but looks a little behind the pace. Then after 5-10 games he's generally firmly settled and scoring regularly.

I'm not a fan of the 'at the same age, so and so are doing this', because quite simply isn't as simple as that. Some players develop at different rates, under different coaches, different leagues.

Last year similar things were said of Gordon ('At his age he should be in the squad, not on the bench for Preston').

And the numerous late developers in the league, especially as forwards, is further indication that such comparisons are not valid. (Toney, Wilson, and Vardy are just 3 top PL goalscorers who at 20/21 didn't look like PL goalscorers. There are probably more if I thought about it some more).

Will Simms make it? Don't know tbh. He has good attributes and I think we could do worse than have him as back up instead of buying someone like we did with Rondon last year. But if he stays and isonly afforded 5 minutes every 7/8 games, then he'll benefit more going back to Hearts on loan.

Maybe Broadhead could be the backup while Simms gets more first team experience.

And Nketiah is not a good comparison with Simms because he's been playing a standard way above Simms for many years now with England recognition and extremely good international goalscoring at U18, U19, U20 and U21 levels (35 goals in 38 games). Also loans at Leeds.

For all that some players are late developers, the vast majority aren't. It's clear with almost all youth players whether they'll make it by about 18 or 19.

This is why Simms has it all to do still and needs Championship or similar standard games to do it.

If he does make it with us (probably as a reserve striker like Nketiah) – and I hope he does – he will have bucked a trend.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Ellis Simms might surprise a few people. Not sure I am in the camp of writing him off just yet. At least give the lad a chance.

This reminds me of the days when many posters on ToffeeWeb never saw Dominic Calvert-Lewin making it. He not only made it – he ended up playing for England.

He went to Fulham on loan and definitely did not fail there. His impressive displays at Fulham is what tempted Leicester to sign him.

Lookman was not a success at Fulham any more than he was at Leipzig. He got off to a hot start, but then tailed off with only one goal and one assist in his last 19 games there as Fulham was relegated. At the end of the loan, Leipzig offered him to Fulham for £15 million. Fulham declined.

I think he'll eventually have a fine career, but I'm glad we didn't wait for him. Selling him to Leipzig for £22.5 million was an exceptional piece of business the likes of which we rarely pull off. We could buy him back tomorrow for a lot less..

It could be that some just don't step up or do not fit in to the manager's plans, strategy or shape of the team they are trying to get.

Unfortunately many just fall foul of the constant managerial swinging doors at many clubs and this can be applied to what has been going on at Everton for some years now.

Some, of course, have impatience and sometimes attitude problems which doesn't help their careers but those with determination and dedication usually do well if given a fair run in the team which is difficult if the team is struggling to get results and the manager is always chopping and changing.

Young Gordon did well under difficult circumstances and if he had been playing for Liverpool or Man City would probably have been picked for England already.

We may tout the abilities of Simms, Dobbin and a few others but sadly like Ross Barkley they may just also become benchwarmers for the most part at least in the Premier League.

It's true that some players who didn't do well at loans can rise to the occasion when they play amongst better players or in a better team.

I think we all agree that, to improve, any player needs first-team football, beyond just coaching and learning from the first-team players. What I think gets neglected is the amount of stability that young players need.

We often talk about giving players a run in the team, let them get used to their teammates, get the chance to grow in confidence.

However, what gets neglected is that, when a player is on loan to a different club each season, how much stability is there? It's akin to being in the same club, with a change of manager every season. If that is hard for even the most experienced players, how much more so for a young player? So, perhaps, there should be more stability in the way we approach giving players loans.

Calvert-Lewin is rightly quoted as an example; nobody knew for sure if he could succeed. What I think was instrumental was that both Big Dunc and Ancelotti built the whole attack around him. Hence, even for Calvert-Lewin, it's some consistency and predictability that allowed him to succeed.

The reality is that, for young players, if there is too much inconsistent treatment, it can work against them.

Get them in the side to freshen the team up with a quarter of an hour to play, and let them learn on their feet for a season. If they don't meet the grade, then sell them on.

I really want him to go and try management in the lower leagues. He's leaving it too late. Blackburn didn't take the risk and I can only see a League One or League Two team for him such as Joey Barton has done.

I just hope we get a striker in before season's start or God help us.