A Sorry Tale of Two Substitutes?

Perfectly understandable that Richy is on the bench rather than starting. Rondon selected by default with all the injuries and raw alternatives we have on the bench.

It would be really nice if Anthony Gordon stepped up and made a strong case for himself today. Time and tides, 'n all that.

My prediction: 40% possession and a 2-0 win.

He's not afraid to attack, go past a player and put a cross in. Just needs to stay concentrated, work hard, make forward runs.

He did play well at Utd but now he needs a goal or a few assists to kick on

I thought we'd found some identity... no idea what we are supposed to be here.

Some decent performances in that half. But not playing to the strength of any player in blue.

Hi Ernie
You're in Melbourne aren't you? Did you know we have a supporters club over here? Now we're actually allowed out again I'm sure we'll be meeting up in the City for some games. Get in touch if you want to come along mate. The more Blues the better.

As for their goal, just amateur defending and while I don't solely blame him for the goal, Godfrey doesn't impress me as a central defender, yes he's got pace but also has poor positional play and then we resorted to the fiddling around at the back which might just be the lack of imagination in midfield.

And while this is another display of poor refereeing was the 4 minutes extra time due solely to the time taken up by VAR?

Hopefully, Richarlison starts the second half up front.

We should have been lifted by such an early goal, but really didn't set the tempo. Anthony Gordon did more in that single play than Iwobi achieved all game last week.

It was Gordon's run and pass which opened up the play allowing Davies to score from Gray's pass.

But a soft goal to concede the equaliser due to a tad of laziness. King was offside, in front of the players in the box, but Gray out wide being the one who played King on. His first goal in 30. Of course, it had to be us.

Davies looking good in a more forward role from midfield. Attacking the box well, as per his goal. Pickford's early distribution was excellent, then it went to cack.

We can win this if we take better advantage from some of the plays out wide. Nearly but not quite in a number of situations with Gordon, Gray, Townsend, Coleman and Digne in good positions. But equally we need to be wary. Watford have been lifted by their goal and will fancy themselves to get something from the game also.

Could an eventual 2nd half introduction of Richarlison prove decisive?

Do coaches or managers not look at what works or are they blindingly stubborn in insisting their methods work best?

We had the option of Josh King as back-up and I'm certain Rondon has had one shot on target in 5 games?

Finch Farm - what do they do, learn, practice?

Liverpool knocked 5 past them last week, away. Laughing stock of Merseyside yet again.

The set pieces are awful at both ends of the pitch which as you say falls on Rafa. If you don't have the quality, work on the simple things, eg, corners. Worked for England in 2018. Maybe Rafa thinks that's something “small clubs” do.

Balls.

Never a fan of zonal marking. It needs a mix of zonal and man to man. But we got done on the counter... isn't that our tactic?

Gordon can hold his head up – at least we were doing okay with him on the field.

A real low point.

Zonal marking that would embarrass Marco Silva. Sat back after going in the lead. Took off our two best players and finished with Iwobi and Rondon on the pitch. An utter joke.

We are in a relegation fight. Make no mistake. We are shocking.

The years that absolutely broke Everton Football Club.

Yet some fans still blame Martinez.

Farhad old boy, here's what 5 years of big spending has reaped you mate.

Absolute fuckin dog food players

Four games of chest pumping under Big Dunc then after that the same bollox players revert to type?

Even Ancelotti couldn't sort out this mess mate and that fella had seen it and done it all.

Ancelotti seen this coming in May and that's why he fuckin walked lad!

Godfrey was awful and how many balls did he and Tom Davies miss leading to them scoring? At least 3, if not all of them.

The substitutions were wrong, yeah, Richarlison had to come on but what percentage is Rondon paying out to get a game and a whole game. Neither Gordon nor Gray should have been the players off unless Gray had an injury and Richarlison showed Rondon what he seems incapable of.

Absolute garbage and I'm sorry but I'm not having that it isn't the manager's fault because of injuries. Why did Richarlison start on the bench after Rondon's rubbish over the last few weeks. We have to find that midfield magician as we don't seem to have that much inventiveness as Townsend and Gray need feeding and the central defence needs sorting, Godfrey is not the answer, as fast as he is he was poor today, not that all the blame is down to him.

Embarrassing!

Leading 2-1 with 12 minutes to go and you lose 5-2?!

That was comically bad. A total capitulation. As Mike Gaynes says, the final 15 minutes of the game is right up there with some of the worst results and performances I've seen by the Blues.

It was a scrappy game throughout with no-one really in control. Until that mad, bad final 12 minutes.

We scored a lovely goal to re-take the lead. But their second was a carbon copy of the WHU goal last week. We can clean out lower hit near post crosses, but a high hanging ball attacked by a late runner is causing us problems. They nearly scored from a similar play from another corner shortly afterwards.

But to concede the third from your own KO within 80 seconds of the restart? And then the 4th. And the 5th! Against a team shanked 5-0 just last week. Shameful.

And King with a hat-trick, his first goals in 30 games, is really rubbing it in.

It was a total road wreck. The defence in particular all over the shop.

WOW! Just wow.

Benitez has an impossible task while kenshite, Brands, Dame Edna, Ferguson and unsie are running the show behind the scenes. Mediocrity from the top down is killing us.

There appears to be no solution until BMD is completed and Moshiri sells us to Canada or Russia. We are a sinking ship.

We've been here before too many times over the last five years (and beyond) - so it'll be interesting to see what Rafa will make of it. The look in his eyes after Watford scored their third made me think that he is going to be laying out some harsh truths over the next few days and weeks. The notion of sacking him for the shortcomings of a group of players who have shown on multiple occasions that they are prone to capitulate in this manner is laughable. Zonal marking failures and substitutions might bring some heat on him, but the performances of the players are all there to see - and individual errors were many and constant.

We have a tough run of fixtures coming Spurs, City and Liverpool in the next 5 games; the response from Rafa and the players is going to be interesting to see - and improvements will be vital.

You couldn't make it up really.

Taking off our best 2 players. Bringing on Iwobi when our openness in the middle was clear (Doucoure is going to be sorely missed). Leaving Rondon on for the 90 minutes. Persistence with the Keane/Godfrey partnership.

Rafa, you really messed it up today and the good feeling at the club is now quickly evaporating.

The players also need to take blame – too weak in the tackle, too sloppy on the ball, too slow all round.

I'm normally fairly optimistic but it is hard to see how Everton can rescue the season with this squad... to be more specific, with the defenders and midfield out there today.

King looks in better shape and is a lot fitter than when he was at Everton.

King is sweeping the floor with Keane.

Didn't know how fateful these comments would be at that time. But for me it highlights the level of work put in at Finch Farm, especially over the International break.

What does a poor result after the International break and a failed rebound in the next game tell us ?Benitez is not making progress at changing things at Finch Farm.

Keane in the last two game s has been absolutely awful at his job, playing too deep, non existant defending on the turn, poor distributing the ball , giving away possession and lightweight as a marker. Godfrey has spent most of his time covering his ass.

What a mess.

And can it really be the manager's fault? We have had in the past 11 odd years the current managers of Belgium, Barcelona and Real.

I never want to see Rondon, Iwobi or Davies in the shirt again. If Gbamin cant get fit he needs to sod off along with Gomes and Delph.

Gordon and Gray can hold their heads up high. The rest can fuck off.

I'm not blaming Iwobi but he epitomises Everton over the last 10 years. We will NOT be relegated but this season, with these players, it will be another struggle.

Richarlison should have started.

When Iwobi is brought on to save the day, you know it's the white flag.

Collectively the squad is infected with a loser mentality born of disastrous management over many years. Anyone with any talent needs to move on before they're destroyed by the apathy. Richarlison and Calvert-Lewin will get out if they have any sense or ambition.

But nothing will change until we sign and breed winning players with a burning desire to win.

The defense were a disgrace and didn't even attempt to stop the last two goals. Watford were able to walk them in.

But obviously the team is complete crap so Rafa needs to at least sort out the basics: defending, corners etc.

This is like 93-94 – bright start then complete collapse. Hopefully Hans Segers is up against us come May...

As for the game, it was a mess when we were winning, never mind when we fell apart. In the last few games we've abandoned what we were doing well previously.

The direct football disappeared - so the likes of Gray and Townsend aren't getting the ball early. Allan and Davies being expected to play with the ball at their feet - which neither are good at. So much going through Godfrey and Keane who we simply shouldn't want near the ball.

Defensively it was a disgrace. Godfrey may well not get near the 11 under Benitez again - he was that bad throughout.

What a mess. At least we can feel safe knowing that the club will stick together - oh hang on, we made a managerial appointment that pretty much guaranteed that won't happen.

What the hell do they practice, learn and train at Finch Farm. We can't sack Rafa as he hasn't been part of the several years of demise, but surely it is time for the old boys network of Dunc, Unsworth et al to go as they are part of this downward spiral over the last few years. It's not working, something has to change and quick!

Bad day at the office for Rafa. Rondon staying on for 90 minutes was a disgraceful decision but to take one of our best players on the day off and have Iwobi and Rondon on the pitch together is like playing with 9 men and that's how we saw the game out.

I would offer an apology but I will get just as pissed off at negativity next week so instead I will offer congratulations to those who got it right.

My sympathies are with you local supporters – you deserve fucking medals for your loyalty and stoic defence of this club over many, many years. The completely disrespectful attitude shown to you by everyone at this alleged football club is an absolute fucking disgrace and an abhorrent abuse and disgusting slur against amazing fans, a proud area, and a once regarded and respected institution.

Take the club from them, they neither deserve your support nor – more importantly – your loyalty.

Just what goes through the board's tea party. I haven't a scooby.

I just wish Moshiri would take the reigns here once and for all and clearout the idiots on the board, including Brands and Unsworth.

Nothing changes until there is a wholesale clearout.

This club is just happy with getting by, the procurement has been ill-planned over 3 years and not even the youth is up to scratch. Absolute joke of a club.

Last week, players saying we must do better, manager saying every department needs to improve 5-10 percent, well his performance needs to do the same.

Take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror tonight, Rafa. You seem to be a bit of a gambler... Start of the season, the luck was going for you; now, your decisions are very questionable.

Everton were an absolute disgrace and laughing stock today. No excuses.

I'm past blaming individuals. This is just part of the deeply engrained shitness at Everton Football Club.

Gray, Townsend, Gordon and Richarlison all tried their best but, with a donkey trotting around up front, we had little attacking threat. Pickford wasn't at fault for any of their goals.

As for our super sub, enough has been said.

2016 was the end of Everton FC.

The identity left the club.

The money has been the ruination of the football club, spent on unnecessarily lavish failed signings, woeful Director of Football appointments (Brands by far the worst) and insane managerial payoffs.

The club has gone, it's becoming completely blinded by this shiny new stadium, but the way things are going we will be lucky to still be in the fuckin division by then.

"We conceded four goals in a few minutes and normally you cannot do this in the Premier League.

"When you score the second goal that is when you have to be better compact and organised but we made mistake after mistake. Difficult to explain.

"We have to be better, especially when you are in control of the game."

How does bringing Iwobi on make us more compact?

It is a shame, because we looked pretty good going forward, even with a center forward who offered very little. But the forward players were completely let down by the hapless defenders. It is mind-boggling how a player with Keane's size, skills, and experience still lacks the confidence to just boss the defence and snuff out threats from a bottom-of-the-table team like Watford.

That Atalanta game. I was there. Humiliation. Same as today.

Easy game though hey Benitez.

I'm sorry to repeat myself but to camp out on the edge of our own box waiting for counter attacking opportunities. That's his master plan?

And NO Michael Keane is not to blame. We have to, at some point, be able to put our foot on the ball. oh whatever

The rot started with Koeman and Walsh and has continued under the three stooges ever since. Take control, Moshiri, or watch your money sink into the BMD mud.

I'd appoint the hotdog girl from the Gwladys Street before this football dinosaur. I'd rather thump my chest to big Duncan going down than happy clap this gobshite.

Surely one voice: "We were awful!"

“We were awful”

I'm going to have to do a Koeman here — the Everton were awful

The same players under Ancelotti could defend set pieces, under Benitez we are back to looking vulnerable at every set piece.

All 4 defenders had poor games. Coleman having a go at the paddock at 1-1 wasn't good from the club captain.

King had a point to prove and was motm by a mile. Pity he was overweight and unfit when we got him last year. Rondon needs to be sent back to China. He is offering nothing.

Gordon was unlucky getting the hook I thought it was his best game for us.

Starting with another 4 man midfield against a team of 5 surrenders possession and control of the game.

The manager needs to rethink his defending and formation otherwise we are in deep trouble with this group of players.

Who, in their right mind, will want to join us in January?

The problems at Everton don't go away mate because of all this

"Give the job to Dunc, he gets Everton"

Gets what exactly?

What have we won in 26 fuckin years?

We keep all these failed old boys at the club not realising that the modern game is about movement and precision play, yet we are stuck in the past with the "big number 9".

It's no wonder the club can't move forward because there are too many dinosaurs at the club already with out of date ideas.

Why are we keeping Unsworth at the club when not a single youth player breaks into the first team?

Blame the managers yes but all of them must be of a similar opinion, if there was a Wayne Rooney at youth level then he'd be on that pitch NOW.

The club is stuck in the dark ages and since Moshiri took over its sinking further and further due to terrible decision making.

Stubborn wins fuck-all!!!!

We are currently the laughing stock of the league, Newcastle have applied to get the game against us re-arranged to get their first win.

Signs awful players on big wages and can't sell effectively either. The state of our squad is embarrassing and the better players get dragged down by the dross.

We can blame injuries and that is a factor but under Moyes, we signed characters. Brands has signed bottle job after bottle job and we can keep saying the managers are awful but nothing and I mean nothing can justify that self-destruction today.

We have spent half a billion under Moshiri and our squad depth is worse than under Walter Smith. How does that happen? We are literally the blueprint of how not to run a club.

Apologies for the knee-jerk post but what attracted me to this club as a kid when my old man took me the match was our identity. We weren't a good team in the 90s but we stood for something. We battled and were hard to play against and, even when we lost, you knew it was due to poor quality but not lack of trying.

The attitude of this team is pathetic. The likes of Rondon, Iwobi, Digne, Keane just to name a few literally look scared to death when we're under pressure. It's the same mistakes that can't be coached – it's just who they are as people.

Sorry again for this post but that was just the pits.

Surely the sub should have been Holgate to stiffen the defence rather than Iwobi, and Rondon was the man to be withdrawn? However, it wasn't the subs that cost us – it was atrocious defending and a lack of guts and grit to do their job properly.

Rafa will rightly get some stick for this but he is now finding out what the previous managers did and that is there is a lack of physical and mental fortitude in this squad and it will get him sacked if he fails to address it. I know he doesn't have many options at the moment but Rondon and Iwobi shouldn't be near the team. And if Gbamin can't get time today, he must be finished.

Branthwaite must be worth a try with Mina, with Ben replacing Digne who has been poor for a year now.

Completely embarrassing – five at home... to Watford!!! I can't recall a worse result at home for an awful long time. Thanks a lot, Everton – I just wish I didn't care so much. Perhaps the guys who played today can teach me how not to care? It seems to come easy to them!!

No Calvert-Lewin, No Doucouré and No Mina.

I don't know where to start really! We would need to spend £300M+ to be as good as West Ham or Spurs!! Not sure there's any point?! I'm resigned to this pointless team.

My son just asked me who would I keep?? Mina? Richarlison? Gray? Doucouré and Calvert-Lewin might be about it?

Hopeless from top to bottom.

I for one can't see the talent.

Zonal marking again. Iwobi and Rondon over Gray and Gordon. Rondon 7 matches that'd embarrass the Stracq and Niasse… The man is a dinosaur and is going to fill us with 30-year-old has-beens (Sanchez latest link).

Brands, Unsworth, and every other person at the club should be ripped out too… I'm not arguing with it. Root and branch reform. If Duncan gets ripped out too, so be it… but at least put him in for the next game until we find a new manager.

Even in the '80s, when we were winning stuff, we still regularly lost finals we should have won and also managed to lose the double in 1986 to our bitterest rivals. It's who Everton is and always will be.

The only two players who come out of it blame-free today are Gordon and Gray. Maybe Pickford a bit as he wasn't actually at fault for any of the goals but his distribution was woeful.

The number of unforced errors from the likes of Keane, Godfrey and Davies was shameful, constantly putting us under pressure by giving away the ball or conceding set-pieces. It was exactly like watching a kids football game at times as it was so amateurish.

Rafa also needs to take a long hard look at himself too – persisting with Rondon together with his substitutions. Why he took Gordon off is beyond me.

Let's start at the top: What new owner leaves the old useless loser in charge and then appoints the worst possible manager in Allardyce, only to follow this up with the most devisive manager in our history???

I thought it would take a 1-0 home defeat to Norwich or somebody to wake this club up. A 5-2 home defeat to Watford is beyond embarrassing and heads must roll.

Rafa is a so-called top manager, yet he plays a geriatric Rondon in the hope that he may register a shot on goal in a game now and then. He plays Iwobi when it's clear as daylight that he is totally useless as a footballer. He has everybody back for corners at home. What the Fuck?

So where do we go from here??

How about a good clear out starting with Kenwright, Ferguson, Unsworth, Iwobi, Rondon, Keane, Digne, Allan... and maybe while he's going through this list, Moshiri can ask himself a big question: Do I even know what football is about?

Amateur FC.

It shocks me more the delusional bravado of those proclaiming "we SHOULD beat the likes of these" prior to games. "The likes of these"??? As though Premier League history shows us as a proven top club. The arrogance is off the scale.

Even with overrated players like Calvert-Lewin, Allan and Richarlison in our "first eleven", we are mediocre makeweights of the English game; without them, we are relegation material.

We win a few, lose a few, toddling along season after season with hope waning by November and extinguished by January. Fans need to refrain from the "likes of these" hubris – I'm sure it upsets the footballing gods.

It's been like this now for a few years: no leaders, no battlers, no fight, no passion. The above is the very essence of our DNA.

Either shape up as a footballer giving a fuck... or fuck off. What hurts most is my 11-year-old has had enough of this... total bollox.

On Football Focus today, they highlighted that Watford had never won at Goodison in 15 attempts. I also knew that Josh King hadn't scored for 30 games. Enough said! When a ream or player needs a win or a goal eh!! Time and time again. You couldn't make it up!

How does Rondon get another full game? He is the worst striker in the League: 8 games no goals. This manager should be taking him off as he makes zero contribution.

Too many players in that squad that have got so many managers the sack. And you can add on Brands, Gomes, Delph, Tosun, Sigurdsson and the any other fraud at the club that contribute nothing.

The squad needs culling, play the kids, it can't be any worse.

That lack of concentration cost us. The type of marking doesn't make a difference without concentration. We've generally defended well this season - they went missing for the last 12 minutes today.

We missed Muna, but we miss him a lot, because he's rarely consistently fit.

Bad day at the office, or the shape of things to come?

Poor, poor game management by Benitez. Rondon should have been taken off instead Anthony Gordon but teachers pet had to stay on.

As for Iwobi substitution, the less said the better!

This team is a spineless bunch of cowards. We have injuries to our better players but there's no way we should be getting thrashed at home by a relegation outfit like Watford.

Be nice to see us slip some extra cash to Everton legends with new 5-year deals for the likes of Delph. NSNO

Rafa should be very very worried.

An Everton player clobbers an opposition player and immediately there are angry cries of "OFF!! OFF!! OFF!!" from... er..the Everton supporters!

In 1995 it was away to QPR - Brett Angell (natch) - today it was Rondon (the only man I've ever seen who could play smoking a pipe, wearing a dressing gown and carpet slippers).

I think that's all the comment I need to make really (although in Brett's defence, I should point out we did actually win the QPR game 2-3).

Actually, while I'm here I will make one more comment.

If, in our Under-23s, Under-18s etc, we don't have one player who could offer more up front than Rondon, we are goosed beyond all levels of goosedness ever recorded on a goosed-o-meter.

I still think Rafa is the man for us, in much the way Moyes was – to steady the ship and gradually improve the players we have. But we're going to have days like this until we get rid of the deadwood and start bringing in some decent footballers who have the will to win.

And above all, a leader. What I wouldn't give for a Tim Cahill or a Peter Reid right now.

I agree with you about over-rating our players, and the players you named also. Look at Leicester City's 3 strikers and compare them to ours. Once Calvert-Lewin is out, we've got nothing.

Rondon is embarrassingly bad and is a sign of the mess we've got ourselves in to. I feel a bit sorry for Marco Silva now cos his first season wasn't too bad considering the shit we've had since...

Is this seriously how they train, week-in & week-out? Absolute bollocks. It was like watching kids fuck about. Duncan with his whistle round his neck. It was like watching Brian Glover in Kes, "I'll be Bobby Charlton..."

Did nobody else watch it online? Mesmerising bollocks from start to finish. Everyone fist bumping as they came out to train. I'm just bewildered.

2-1 up and we bring Iwobi on... Why? I mean, What The Fuck???

Why do our rejects flourish at other clubs? Something – if not everything – is seriously wrong at our club.

I have stated before that I was one of the ones who did not want Rafa – not because of his association with the Reds but because of his reputation of negative defensive football. I was beginning to believe he was slowly starting to change but, with the injuries, he was finding it difficult.

The blame today is squarely on the manager's shoulders, and today his tactics and all players failed miserably, and singling out one player who came on as substitute is poor. We all are aware of the problem: it is at #9 and it is up to the manager to make decisions.

This performance today, taking who the opposition were, is one of the blackest days at Goodison Park for years, and I thought we had lost the "taking a knife to a gunfight" attitude years ago...

I just hope the manager takes the gloves off and lets this shambles of a team know what they have just done to the club and their supporters, who are the ones that have to live with it for years.

BENITEZ OUT!!

Shocking performance capped by the appearance of Iwobi who pretty much encapsulates all that has gone wrong in the Moshiri age.

But be warned, Rafa doesn't have a great record in the transfer market. Just ask our neighbours across the park. For every Xavi Alonso, Daniel Agger or Raheem Sterling there were 10 David N'gogs or Alberto Alquilani's.

But instead, here we are with last season's fat unfit unused striker getting a hat-trick against us.

The club is so badly run from the top that it is frightening. What has happened with FFP is an example of that.

Kenwright was bad enough, now it looks as though he has fitted us up with an owner who hasn't a clue how to run a football club. I really fear for us.

This manager will not survive if he keeps playing Rondon for the full 90 minutes every game. Simply amazed with all his experience that he decided we needed a big lump as a back-up striker. Rondon is way out of his depth.

Well, I've just watched Brighton get battered by a brilliant Man City team in the first half, and now watching a brave and proud comeback display, after a half-time team talk from their manager. What a difference!

They probably won't win, but at least they'll go in proud, and their fans happy with the response.

Godfrey and Keane just don't seem to gel as a partnership, the former seems to have some post-Covid "hangover" as seems to have reactions and a turn of speed as slow as Keane.

In the team, there seems to be no leadership on the pitch. As individuals, they cannot seem to defend with no solidity or defensive organisation. Going forward, we seem to rely upon individuals rather than a cohesive team performance.

I hope some decent targets have been identified for the next transfer window, although I suspect not. We just have to hope they are better at identifying bricklayers than players – otherwise, the future looks very grim.

The common theme through all the shite of the last 5 years particularly is the players. The squad is full of spineless, gutless clowns. The club need to look at who has bought these players, who has decided to keep some, who decided to let some go.

Granted, Benitez clearly wanted Rondon so he must take full blame for that. However, the rest of the shite is not his doing.

If Benitez is in, then he's in. The club should have an internal investigation into signings made and, if Brands is to blame, then he must be fired for complete incompetence.

The youth set-up must also be looked at immediately and they need to figure out why they are not producing anywhere near enough players who are good enough for the first team.

When they have looked at these things, they need to either sack or back the current manager, coaches, director of football. They need to put a statement out apologising for the state of the squad and that they know the current group of players is not good enough. The manager (Benitez or A N Other) will be given 3 seasons regardless of performances. Subject to the danger of relegation from the Premier League.

Most of these players must be sold on and new ones brought in over the next three seasons. No changing managers; it doesn't work. Admit we are not good enough and communicate this to the supporters. Tell us straight what we can all see with our own eyes. Then we have to do our bit and accept ups and downs but at least there is a plan.

The players are not good enough and that is that. Changing the majority of these players is the only way this will get better.

Only time will tell...

I only watch highlights of us these days. Even so, after that, and only lowlights, but I feel traumatized – Christ knows what it was like to actually watch that unfold in person.

This squad resembles one-ply shit ticket for both quality and depth. With even just a few significant injuries, this team will sink like a stone to the Championship. There was a reason we were putting all those goalkeepers on the bench in the pre-season after all.

Evertonians just have to pray that the important players get fit and stay fit or it's kobiyashi moru.

Oh and one or two more of these turds in the near future and Benitez's position really rapidly becomes untenable... one of the many reasons why none of our previous chairmen saw fit to appoint a failed former RS gaffer.

The club is at a crossroads right now, and those fans who are concerned are in my view wholly justfied in feeling that way. These guys running the club get virtually nothing correct. Things are very very grim heading into the winter.

We all know that Rafa is stubborn but I found those comments frustrating. How must Anthony feel being told he can't play 90 minutes?

Unfair to make that comment in his post-match interview and not just admit his mistake. At least say it was done to make a tactical switch, not sure why he's called Gordon out like that.

We have had some beatings over the years but I can't remember a more humiliating loss in my fifty years of watching Everton. Can anyone? In fact, I left before the end; when Iwobi came on, I knew the game was gone.

Half a billion spent, and we have the worst squad I can remember. Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin, Doucouré, Pickford and Mina (when fit) would get into another Premier League team, but the others?

Digne, Coleman, Holgate and Godfrey are shadows of their former selves, Davies and Allan are too slow and too small for the Premier League, Gray and Townsend seem to hide when the going is tough, Keane is too slow and error-prone, and Rondon is League One at best.

Although Rafa also had a 'mare today, taking off our best midfielders, when we were getting over-run in midfield, and leaving Rondon and Townsend on the field, and even considering Iwobi, but it is no good replacing the manager.

Nothing will really improve until Moshiri grows a pair and gets rid of Kenwright and his rotten gang of old-boy hangers-on, and brings in a professional group of coaches and backroom staff.

I'm a broken man (and record) but we are inept and rotten to the core – never mind on the pitch.

I asked the question on the Live Forum about the selection of Rondon: When does it stop being stubbornness or professional pride and starts being just bad judgement of a player – and not even to drag him off at half-time???

I know he has signed him at least 3 times and a manager lives and dies by his signings... (and subs...) but c'mon. It's almost as if he has a death wish or really is an agent for them sheisters over the park.

Sure, square pegs in round holes does not work well but it is better than having lazy, slow, incompetent players on the pitch and quick, industrious players on the bench.

Baffling.

100 plus games to his name, we lost 2-5 but we baby him along.

He played well for 3 minutes. This is the problem with this small-minded old boys club.

Does a Football Club get the ownership & management it deserves? Certainly feels like it!!!

So far, he is too arrogant by keeping him on.

The bad news is he will probably start next game.

I know you didn't want and don't like Rafa — few do. But, regardless of him, isn't this a lot like last season? A manager some like, some don't, presiding over a crap squad put together by seemingly bomb-proof idiots, Kenwright, Brands, Unsie etc.

I don't think we can really judge a manager until those people are held accountable and driven out of the club. Yes, I agree, Rafa screwed up today, but his screw-ups weren't reflective of the scoreline. That was indicative of years of ineptitude higher up.

Rondon, Kenny, Holgate, Davies, Keane, Digne, Delph, Gomes, Gbamin, Tosun and Iwobi all need to go. I didn't mention Sigurdsson for obvious reasons. What a piss poor squad we have.

Don't hold your breath. Most of these tossers will be with us for a long time. Clueless, gutless fuckers. Sign for Everton and you are on easy street. God help us when Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison move on next season – as they surely will.

But we keep changing managers, and we are still crap.

Get rid now and send him to Newcastle and get Fonseca in before the skunks get him.

"Poor subs. Gordon should've stayed on the pitch but I swear to god, if Rafa is sacked before Brands, then I give up. There is one man who's to blame for this squad and it's that utter fraud."

I have no proof but I strongly suspect Moshiri is doing half of Brand's job; Iwobi and Walcott were his 'babies' due to the Arsenal connection?

Brands again was probably told to look the other way when James, Allan and Doucouré were brought in to pacify Ancelotti.

If he (Brands) is guilty of anything, it's the point where he said to himself "Fuck it, they're paying too much to care; I'll take the money and watch it all fall apart around me..."

There's too many cooks stirring the pot in our club.

Like you, I share the frustration of all on TW on the performance of the team, and the manner of the defeat. But how can you say "Gray and Townsend seem to hide when the going is tough" and in the next para say "Rafa also had a 'mare today, taking off our best midfielders,..."

Was Gray one of our best midfielders or hiding?

There isn't a word to describe that performance, this team is a disgrace to our club. If this carries on, the crowd will get more toxic towards the waiter, he has to take some blame for this.

Why oh why did he leave Rondon on? I just don't understand.

Well, that's another weekend ruined, and it's gonna be a long week in work with all them red shite...

Off to get pissed.

He's shooting himself in the foot by saying Gordon hasn't got 90 minutes in his legs when he's sticking with that milk float up front. I had a quick look at Rondon's stats, it didn't take long. Apparently in 6 appearances he's had 8 shots (no, I can't remember them either) of which 1 has been on target.

And then he's going on about mentally seeing out a game when leading. Okay then, why not bring on Gbamin for Gray and shore up the midfield rather than that 2-legged stool, Iwobi?

He's just Steve Bruce in a better suit.

Iwobi gave us nothing, the over-worked midfield duo were already buggered. Davies tried hard as did Allan but they are a slow pairing and with the brain dead Godfrey displaying to all and sundry that it was purely his pace and lungs that served him so well last season and without that, he is lacking in everything else.

Keane got worse and worse. Digne has been in for form defensively for over a year and only his crosses up the other end keep him in the side. Coleman is panicking whenever on the ball, as he now lacks pace.

Hardly surprising that we imploded but it was Rafa who set them up to defend zonally.

It will be very difficult for this group to come back from this. The confidence will be gone. Mina's return will help but the absence of Calvert-Lewin and Doucouré is a huge miss.

For fuck's sake, we are just an embarrassment. At the very least, the wheel nuts are loose and we are just waiting on the collapse and collision.

No-one is to blame in the club, apparently. It's all our (supporters') fault. We celebrate mediocrity and have done for the last 30+ years.

We have a few injuries and it's obvious that our squad is not good enough. Yes, managers make mistakes but there has not been one that has had enough player quality to compete with the best sides in our league.

Cue Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin, Digne wanting to leave – could you blame them?

This was not a game where the substitutions cost us. This is a thinly veiled attempt to extoll the virtues of Anthony Gordon whilst lambasting Iwobi. Iwobi, as much as I think he is complete garbage, was not a fault more than any other for the loss of this game.

Tony Gordon played okay. He actually bottled a header in the first half which was a certainty for a goal. He later missed another golden opportunity. These weren't even half-chances, the header especially was extremely poor. Despite these massive shortcomings at vital moments, he was bright and showed some good touches and positivity.

Gray got injured, about 30 seconds before he came off. That's why he did come off, I think.

However, the real issue was that we were generally outplayed by quite a poor Watford side for much of this game. And therein lies the real problem. Not only that, but defensively we were bullied mercilessly by very average players. I should know, I saw Josh King in an Everton shirt last season. He obviously knew from his own personal experiences that he had the beating of Michael Keane.

Keane and Godfrey were absolutely abysmal today. There's obviously a problem with Godfrey, he's not fit, or mentally he's not there. As he's playing well below his level.

Keane is just not good enough. He's incredibly fragile and I'm afraid the ruthlessness of Premier League football is beyond him. Like, miles beyond him.

Digne is a 9/10 every 10 games. A 7/10 every 8 and the rest of the time he's a 3/10 or less. There's no consistency with him. Since he's been at the club he's got worse and worse. He's obviously a player (like most) who plays better when surrounded by good players. But he's not. He's surrounded by crap players and it makes him look crap.

Atrocious. As for the man in the dugout… very rare we get beaten at home by Watford.

Now people want him out. Unbelievable!

Iwobi has no stomach for a battle, and is not to blame, but dilutes significantly the effectiveness of the team and, with Rondon, it's like playing with 9 players.

Watford would never play as bad as they did last week. They wanted to win it more and Everton were overran in the second half.

It could have been worse, Pickford saved a couple more but the meltdown in 11 minutes as far as I can remember must be a record for Everton, conceding 4 goals.

The smelling salts need to come out and a plan to get the mental belief and pride back in this squad, starting tomorrow.

Time for a new captain and leadership on the park. This capitulation, like Villa, was self-inflicted as Everton played like Watford last week, and lost the desire and will.

Surely at Wolves, Richarlison will start upfront and Anthony Gordon will start, as well. He was the best player today, and didn't deserve to be subbed.

Rafa hopefully will take stock of these back-to-back home defeats, and be honest enough to admit his tactical mistakes in at least the substitutions in these games.

Next game at Wolves and hopefully some pride for the shirt and respect for the club and supporters is shown.

The worry today is the players looked like they had given up the ghost, but football is a funny old game, but character, fight and purpose are traits that not many of this Everton squad possess.

So it can only get better? Let's hope so.

I'll abstain from commenting on Rondon, other than he is probably deeply affected by the severe crisis in his home country. At least that is a charitable explanation for his total uselessness. I'd play Keane at centre-forward. He does score the odd goal.

Well done, Anthony Gordon! Every cloud etc, etc.

Bring up whoever it is next week...

The other factor is we haven't got anyone else.

You let Rondon, who is unfit, fucking shite, and a total embarrassment to this great football club, play the full 90 minutes, yet replace Gordon because you know he can't last a full game??

You really are one stubborn fuck because anyone watching that game will tell you that you were wrong... absolutely anyone.

Tom Davies – not developed at all. Please stop, Everton.

Who would take Iwobi, Holgate, Kenny, Keane, Gomes, Davies off our hands? And would we get any money at all?

We need to spend £300M to almost standstill! Seems completely pointless!

Really depressing…

Unfortunately, modern players and coaches are immune to shame, certainly this lot are. I think I need a break from this utter shambles of a club.

For those saying he's not ready yet, then why the hell is he even on the bench? At the moment, the way Rondon is playing, do we really have anything to lose playing Dobbin? Even if he just farted on an opposition player, it would still be more than what I've seen from Rondon.

No wonder Unsworth wants to stay for life, there are no goals or targets to meet. Professional football clubs should not be run this way, it's not the '60s anymore.

I guess you were unfortunate enough to witness this latest embarrassment live. I stopped watching after the 5th went in. Any cushions thrown from the Main Stand?

It was not the goals against that upset me but the attitude of the players who just seemed to accept what was going on. I have said it once and I will say it again: It was the manager's fault, not in the substitutes, but in the players he brought off.

We all love a trier but a professional footballer should have more in his skill set than just being a trier. Rondon was given some leeway when he had to start for Calvert-Lewin but there has not been any improvement in his play from Day 1.

You can't blame the player as he is just trying his best, and unfortunately his best is not good enough for the Premier League.

As I say, it is the manager's fault. I am not interested in who bought them or what position they play in, but there is a standard of play you must keep when pulling on the blue shirt. When continuous poor performances in the blue shirt fall short, it is the manager's fault to continue playing them, and it seems a blind man watching a blacked-out TV screen can see what our manager can not.

We may have a not so very good squad, but surely we have enough professionals that can keep a lead with 10 or more minutes to go that must have been practiced in training.

Do not be complaining after the game "It should not have happened" because it did. You have just been shown by an experienced manager how to win a game, who has only been with the club for a few weeks and seems to know more about his players than you do about your squad.

Not a sign of anyone taking charge because there isn't anyone capable, on the books, of doing a captain's job. Utterly shameful performance, if the rest of it was like the 5 minutes I watched.

Young man next door, who is physically handicapped, never misses an Everton game, home and away. He kicked off around half-six, effing and blinding every one of Everton's players. I can hear him through the walls.

Wait ‘til he opens his second case of lager, he will really take off. Everton is his whole life, he hasn't had a lot to live for the last few years... It would be funny if Everton FC weren't so bleedin' tragic!!

"The reason Rondon gets picked and remains on the pitch is because he's a big strong lad, not easily intimidated, experienced at this level"

Having watched every game that Rondon has played for us, I would like to see some proof that he's a big strong lad and not easily intimidated, as so far I have yet to see him win a single physical challenge. I think that Big Dunc could easily do a better job. Rondon just does not offer anything at all to the team... Nothing!

"The other factor is we haven't got anyone else."

Well we let Kean go back to Juve and appear to have a chap called Dobbin on the bench. Either of those just cannot do a worse job than Rondon.

It's been said before, but the statue of WR Dean offers more.

Totally, mate, the issue is Kenwright will give Tom Davies another contract too as he will say he is one of us.

It seems everything is rotten from top board level to David Unsworth.

We have to stop the sentimental rubbish, giving ex-players coaching roles too. David Unsworth must have a job-for-life contract.

I believe in young players getting a chance to shine but to put them on the pitch with today's group would, I believe, put their development back a long way. Watford players showed me a greater desire, we were poor. COYB.

We have a squad that is thin on quality. An already-thin squad that has a significant number of injuries to "key" players (blame for a weak squad? discuss in no more than 1,000 words). Players who can play very well - some often, some occasionally, but not all the time, not collectively. Players who at their best, collectively, can give any team a run for their money; but when several have a poor game, the overall impact is significant.

A centre forward playing week-in & week-out, who has not a single redeeming quality: cannot trap a ball; cannot keep possession of a ball; cannot head a ball; has no pace; cannot head a ball (I know, I've already said that - that's how bad it is for a centre forward); cannot pass; cannot shoot.

I'm very, very loath to look to U23 players to fill gaps but Dobbin's pace (I've seen a lot of him) already puts him one quality ahead of Rondon – imagine that pace closing down defenses and keepers.

Carlo must be crap? Benitez now must be crap? No, they are not the common factors. But Rafa, I'm afraid, is culpable in continuing with Rondon.

If he's good enough, he's old enough, just play him. It's impossible that he has less to offer than Rondon.

Putting aside how good or bad Moise Kean actually was (monstrously overrated, IMO), he couldn't get out fast enough.

Dobbin is completely untried, confirming the notion "we have no-one else".

I've just snapped my scratched record in half though, and as much as I think Benitez is on a hiding to nothing, his quote about Gordon, not having 90 minutes in him, and Gray needing to give his legs a rest, holds no value at all when his centre-forward is being allowed to just labour through the entire “90 minutes” without being replaced.

And Colin, thanks for the memories: Bucharest etc... the misery is endless. I even found myself reminiscing about the Walter Smith era today.

"It shocks me more the delusional bravado of those proclaiming "we should beat the likes of these" prior to games. "The likes of these"??? As though Prem history shows us as a proven top club. The arrogance is off the scale."

Yes, Barry, I think it's arrogant thinking on our part; stuck in the past.

But I would say, on Dobbin, that the fact that he hasn't been tried doesn't mean to say "we have no-one else". We can't conclude that until we've tried him?? I'm really grasping at fecking straws, Barry, in suggesting Dobbin gets a run, I know. But I've seen the guy's pace – Rondon has not a single redeeming quality – not one.

Sorry, Barry, but I'm so fecking annoyed and clutching at straws.

The one who should have a clue is Brands but he is my biggest disappointment. The rumour was that he didn't want Benitez – maybe that was because he would highlight his incompetence?

Brands was the person in the strongest position when coming in as Moshiri bent over backwards to get him. Brands could of insisted on having full control of player purchasing, may be he did but we are in a terrible state.

Brands could have insisted on no Benitez. Brands should know, yes Benitez has been there and bought the tee shirt but as with all these ancient managers, they won't change their ways.

Liverpool supporters will tell you Benitez is a staunch believer of zonal marking so after West Ham last week we should have been shit hot defending this game but Benitez won't change his ways even if it doesn't suit the players.

We would have a hope if the people at the club had the football knowledge of the supporters, as it is I can see the future success of this club being avoiding relegation and nothing else.

They didn't have to do much to score the five goals. This is a new level of incompetence and cowardliness. What a mess we are.

Benitez has to shoulder a fair share of the blame today, his decisions were atrocious.

I said start Gbamin before the game because I knew Davies would get bullied by Sissoko and Kucka, which he did. He was going so far forwards and not winning the ball, therefore making the pitch wide open for them.

Where's his common sense? Once we got 2-1 up, Rafa should've brought on Gbamin or Holgate for midfield to kill the game. He instead brings on Iwobi and we concede 4. Iwobi doesn't benefit us in any way at all.

It was predictable we would run into problems this season once injuries ruled out more than one or two of our first choice players. Today's game may serve a useful purpose in the longer term in demonstrating to the manager and the board just how poor we can be when the lack of depth and quality in the squad is fully exposed.

In the meantime it is for the players and manager to regroup and get back to the basics of solid defensive play from front to back.

Where does Rafa go from here? He has few options as he faces a difficult few weeks with a very limited squad significantly weakened by injury.

Faced with a similar situation last season, Carlo settled pragmatically for defensive depth and a counterattacking approach. Some fans were unhappy about that but, in the circumstances, we now find ourselves it seems to me to be the only viable option.

Finding fault with individual players seems pointless after today's collective capitulation. Equally another change of manager would make no sense at all.

I agree with those who suggest Carlo saw this coming. Failing at Real Madrid seemed preferable to failing in Merseyside.

Having supported the club since being at Oldham as a 9-year-old when we secured promotion in the mid fifties I have seen the great, the mediocre, the poor and the utterly abysmal pull on the blue shirt. However, I have never witnessed such an outrageously poor footballer as Rondon; a man seemingly bereft of pace, technical ability to comfortably manipulate a football, aerial prowess, astute movement, sheer lack of physical fitness etc.

And yet if criticism/ridicule is to be directed anywhere it surely cannot rest exclusively on him? After all, if you are no better than a pub team Sunday League footballer, who amongst us would not put on the boots and accept obscene thousands of pounds for lumbering around the pitch for an hour and a half if some irresponsible organisation was gullible enough to actually pay me to do so?

I fear that in these last two home games Mr Benetez may very well have sealed his fate with the majority of the support base. After seeming to placate, in the earlier games of the season, those who held his previous stewardship of LFC against him, his bringing a player such as Rondon to the club is nothing short of an insult to supporters' intelligence and knowledge of what constitutes a professional football player.

As such, the manager who seemingly knows this player of old should be the focus of the criticism; Rondon is simply who he is and does not select himself. If there are in fact any truly competent players left at the club what on earth must they think, and what must be the impact on their own confidence in the team's capacity to perform with players such as this in the team? What the untried young players must think is beyond me.

Of course recent injuries and the sorry recruitment over recent years play their part and those responsible for the latter, together with the sorry excuses for coaches at all levels should be removed.

However, although Rondon and Iwobi's continued regular presence in the team are by no means the only relevant personnel in this matter of incompetence, I feel they are simply the immediate focus, easy target and catalyst for much pent up frustration, when people's genuine anger at being so insulted should be directed at those responsible for overseeing such an appalling state of affairs.

To expect people to pay good money to watch such outrageous incompetence is beyond contempt. The club at present is a disgrace.

"...Dobbin? Even if he just farted on an opposition player, it would still be more than what I've seen from Rondon."

Thank you, Neil, in the darkest of darkest hours I can let out a guffaw at that!

Rafa – Finch Farm, Monday – farting lessons!

Unfortunately me visiting Goodson is now in the passed tense. As for Bramley-Moore Dock, that will be an albatross. I'm done. Life's too short to be kept in misery.

I don't have the stamina for this anymore after 50 years. I will spend my time enjoying my grandkids. One of them made his Under-9s debut today. What a joy.

No doubt I will be pilloried for arguing that, after the dismissal of each of his successors, David Moyes should have been offered the job. He certainly would not have squandered hundreds of millions on cohorts of second and third rate players. He would also have ensured that his teams never capitulated in the same manner as today and as on the all too often similar occasions witnessed in the last seven years.

If Benitez does call it a day or is shown the door, then Moyes, arguably, should be his replacement although he would be unlikely to take the job if a Director of Football was foisted on him.

Relegation may well be come an issue sooner rather than later if there is not a root-and-branch change to the present totally unacceptable structural situation within the club.

Our owner is naive and gutless. A proper owner would have shown the door to the likes of Kenwright, Brands, Unsworth, Ferguson and the likes by now!

Gbamin must be given a chance. Davies can not pass forward. If players don't want to put in a full shift, play some of the young lads.

I feel like we are going backwards and some of the players are not that bothered.

I was also at that Norwich game. I seem to be a bad omen as I remember taking my new girlfriend when QPR grabbed 5.

I was also unfortunate enough to sit through some of the hammerings we got with Moyes, by big hitters such as Blackburn and West Brom. Always bloody Everton.

We won't win the league again, I'm wondering if we will actually win anything again.

Forget Dobbin farting on a player, Calvert-Lewin on crutches has to be a better option than Rondon.

Never ever will I call Rod Belfit again, Rondon has surpassed even Bernie Wright.

Newcastle rise up against it and get new owners regardless of their background.

Us? We get the Forest Gump of the Billionaire Club.

I remember several capitulations by Moyes teams Arsenal 7-0 away 6-1 home and debacle in Bucharest.

I could go on…

But I ask the question "Why Rondon?" as a very serious question. Does anybody have any tentative explanation as to why Rafa does keep faith with him starting and playing for a full 90 minutes?

That is a serious question.

The past few home games have been relatively quiet but we all knew that losing just one or two players would allow the same old shithouses to come back – just as they have done for the last 5 managers.

Every now and then we get some new blood in who have a better work ethic and attitude than the cowards at the club but sooner or later they get dragged down to the same level of shite. The attitude, the coaching staff, the upper management is fundamentally flawed at this club.

The players who aren't in the first team just fuck around like 12-year-olds – watch them, pissing about laughing and joking. Not one of them is good enough and not one of them has any determination to get their heads down and fight for a shirt.

How shit must Gbamin be not to be able to get on that pitch today?

Nobody with half a brain expected us to be at the top of the table. We're going to be mid-table. Stay up until the stadium is finished, and then shift gears. That's the reality, exposed today for all to see.

When you spunk half a billion to try to catapult up into the upper echelons and it doesn't come off, this is your reality.

Just back the squad and move about your merry way. It'll be this way for a few years.

Safe pair of hands to see us through until the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is finished.

All this bitching is just noise. This is where we are at. Stick with them – what else are you going to do?

I think you might be right.

Unfortunately today, I saw Gray and Townsend become Everton players.

The never-wrong 'experts' observing Keane et al defending 5 yards too deep or too far out will have a field day trying to analyse that shite. Mina and Keane are our best pairing; no, it's Godfrey and Holgate – doesn't really matter, the lot playing today were a disgrace to the shirt and club.

That exhibition must rank amongst the most abysmal embarrassing inept failures of which there have been a few. A couple were not as rank but were still crap as it's all relative. Defence, midfield, up front, nobody gets a plus after that.

So looking forward to the coming week's analysis…

Who else do you put at the 9?

Richarlison shouldn't start. He's not fit. Then the question with Calvert-Lewin out – Who?

Who do you put up top? If not Rondon, who? Are there any real options for Rafa?

This is our reality. When we suffer injuries, we're just weak. There's not a lot of options.

The team lacks serious leaders. No-one shouting at players to calm down and protect each other. Davies will get stick but the choices we have with injuries means he gets the call.

Rafa has a massive job here... probably more than he expected. Today was the wake-up call to the board.

It's on the pitch we need to concentrate on! The new stadium brings sweat nothing without a competitive squad. Nearly £400 million spent and this! It's going to be a struggle for the next two seasons at least or longer.

Rafa just keep us in the Premier League. That's all nothing else. Do more and we will knight you!! Anyone else expecting more. Please seek medical help!

My excitement that we may do anything usually goes by September but it lasted till the end of October this season. That's a positive, I think? Thanks Everton!! Night all!

Zonal marking not up to it on that occasion?

"Who else do you put at the 9?"

Jamie, I'm not sure but... anybody but Rondon, who is having zero contribution to games. Change the formation if necessary, to allow you to bring in somebody else. But with Dobbin, no need even to change the formation.

I know, he's an untested U23 player. But he has several qualities that Rondon does not have. And I can't name one quality that Rondon does have.

Now, if he doesn't try to change it next game, shame on him!

I think today illustrates your point. It's time to mix it up and try something different. But, prior to today, I don't see how you blame Rafa for marching him up top.

Today was just a prelude to the horrors that are to come. Can you imagine what the likes of Man City and Chelsea are going to do to this shambolic outfit? And - God help us - the RS awaits. Klopp will just put his kids out again as he will be content with a three goal margin and will want to keep his best players fit for tougher challenges.

The ultimate humiliation of relegation awaits. If the Barcodes want Rafa that badly, then – based on the last two matches – they can have him. On condition that they also take Rondon and Iwobi and play them. At least then we won't finish bottom.

If my abiding memory of last week was Iwobi's air shot from a few yards out, then today it was a beaming Iwobi hugging opponents at the final whistle. Job done, eh, Alex?

Most of us didn't want Benitez in. Appalling game management. I can't wait to see the back of him.

We might be total non-entities these days but at least some fans are still cracking gags.

This puffed up con-man brought Rondon here totally unfit and finished. Insists on playing Iwobi who is a heartless liability. Smiles smugly and patronisingly while pouncing around fat bellied in shorts making noise on the trading field.

The biggest fraud so far – and that's an achievement with Fat Sam, Koeman and the rest as benchmarks.

Today was humiliating but, if you've supported us for 50 years and you didn't find the derby 0-5 or the FA Cup defeat 2 years ago to their kids more humiliating than this, then you mustn't live locally.

He would be at home in a mid to lower Championship team but nowhere near Premier League level.

What the fuck is a new stadium going to do? Suddenly make us into a Top 4 club? Oh dear me!!!!

It is really difficult being an Evertonian after a game we have just witnessed. I feel exactly the same as you do, but with a combination of stupididty and loyalty, I will always remain an Everton fan. I remember losing 6-0 to Sheffield Wednesday and being relegated in 1951-52 season. I survived two season's of dross before we were promoted in the third season, but I am still an Everton supporter.

You mentioned Newcastle and their new owners. They may become successful with all the money. However, they could also waste it, just like we did. In fact, they may be in the Championship before they start their climb. Mind you we might even be with them.

On another note, I have blamed everyone connected with Everton for the plight we are in. The one I exclude is Moshiri. I just don't think he has made the right decisions in the signing of players and managers. I think he has listened to genuine fools, but he has put his money in when nobody else would.

I have also watched and coached my own kids and six grandchildren as well. As much as I do enjoy it, I smile, clap and say "Well Done", there is still nothing like an Everton win. I just hope it is at Wolves. Sean, I bet you at least check to see the score.

The lad can't defend in the air and his positioning is shocking. But to most, he's "boss, that Godfrey, la!" Is he? He's a fuckin' imposter from what I've seen so far, if you ask me.

The same with Digne, he's been awful for 12 months now and his defensive side of the game is appalling. But hey, he can put in a good cross once every 10 games. Can't beat the 1st man on taking corners, but he's a world class full back. Absolute bollocks.

Fans need to realise, while blaming Iwobi and Rondon and Davies for every defeat, that their other "heroes" elsewhere on the park are putting in regular shithouse performances without scrutiny. Everyone of those players stunk the place out today. All of them, not just the regular whipping boys. But fans will always turn on the same names while letting the imposters fly under the radar.

When we actually had success in the 80s, it was the players themselves who pointed the finger at each other and everyone had to stand up. No one, absolutely no one got away with a shite performance whether you were an Andy Gray or a Terry Curran.

Today's current crop haven't got a leader amongst them. Is Allan really "the next Peter Reid"? Not on todays abysmal showing.

The club is rotten to the core after decades of mismanagement but its time to point fingers at the imposters getting away with deserved criticism just because they're a so-called star name.

We could struggle to get 2 wins out of our next 10 games; we will be lucky to be sitting on 20 points after 19 games.

As the situation worsens, then the atmosphere will only get worse too and more toxic towards Benetiz and the team. All-in-all, the potential to spiral badly. For the fans who talk about us being mid-table and/or higher and hanging on until the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is built, wake up and smell the coffee – we could be in a relegation dogfight in the next month and does anyone think that our current team has the stomach for the fight?!?

Already trying to bank on their being 3 crapper teams than us.

The new stadium doesn't change a great deal, especially in the short term. The Top 4 is largely sewn up through spending power – and we're miles off. It will help, however, with the general perception of the club – to one with a future rather than one living in the past.

As for this season, we're still very much on track for our rightful 8th or 9th place over the course of a season.

And whilst Benitez has a lot to answer for today, the reason we're stuck in mid-table and consistently suffer these humiliations, season-in & season-out, is the lack of good players.

Compared with the more successful clubs, our players are really not that good.

They all can't be that bad surely.

I will add Coleman.. finished. Digne, been shite for 12 months. Pickford, a couple of decent saves but also caused panic on a couple of occasions and kicked the ball out of play 6 times.

Davies, absolute crap, epitomised with his shitting out of a tackle at about the 78-minutes mark, just when Watford thought, these don't fancy this,

Gray and Townsend today got sucked into EFC mediocrity.

Allan is woeful, both in his creativity ( non existent, but he thinks he has it) and his diving into tackles that don't need diving into.

Rondon.. worst centre-forward since Jo.

Benitez, stubborn bastard, thinks he knows better. Brought Rondon to the club and continues to both pick him, and keep him on the pitch when 38,000 football fans can see he is useless; Begovic up front for the second half would've been more productive.

As some have already said today will be talked about for years to come, just like those Carlisle defeats in 75, the Sheffield United cup game at Goodison around that time, the Keeley derby, Shrewsbury, Tranmere, the RS kids defeat, Ekokuo, etc etc etc.

It hurts tonight, but not as much as when I wake up tomorrow.

Dobbin must be sitting on the bench thinking no point being at this club who would rather play an older guy who is clearly out of his league. I mean, he has had what, five games straight, and he hasn't come close to scoring.

Keane panics when put under pressure and has this uncanny trait of hitting his own players when trying to clear balls under pressure.

Ask Rafa why he had to change a formation that was working (except for Rondon) – all he had to do was replace him with Richarlison.

But I really believe this club has been cursed ever since Moshiri took over. It just doesn't seem to matter who the manager is or who we buy, we always start off well and then go to shit.

I'm struggling to think of 3 worse teams on the basis of the last two matches. Norwich, the Barcodes (until January at least) and possibly Burnley, Leeds and Southampton; but they are all capable of turning things round whereas it appears we will continue on our downward spiral.

If we can dodge the relegation bullet this season, then we will at least start next season with a few less wasters on our books – unless we are daft enough get in more players like Rondon and Iwobi. Regrettably, all the evidence shows that, yes, we are daft enough – and then some.

We are cursed.

They say you couldn't make it up but, with Everton, we can all write the script.

We failed to establish any sort of control in midfield, failed to pick up most second balls, and lost out in nearly all the 50/50s.

Digne had a nightmare and Godfrey confirmed what most of us already knew; he's hopeless in the air. After 12 years, Coleman still cannot put in a decent cross.

But the buck stops with the manager, both for his team selection and his woeful substitutions. I can't recall Rondon having a single shot or header on target in any of his games. So, why is he being selected? But not only that, why isn't he being subbed off when he's clearly struggling to make any sort of meaningful impact?

When I saw Iwobi about to come on, I knew it was all over. He and Rondon shouldn't be anywhere near the first team, even with all the injuries we have.

In his treatment of Gordon and his reluctance to bring on Dobbin clearly indicates Benitez doesn't rate our young players but the time is fast approaching when he'll be forced to throw one or two in.

Today's debacle and the poor performance against West Ham has highlighted deficiencies throughout the team. Josh King was superb today. Beni Baningime is setting Scotland alight for Hearts with performances that have seen them top the table. Both considered not worthy of a place in this squad of imposters masquerading as EFC players. Oh to have had Beni or Josh in Royal Blue today.

Who were the experts that got shut of them? How do they arrive at these errors of judgement? Who is accountable? No one, it seems.

If there is no money, if the injuries and lack of form continues, then youth must be given its chance. I am old enough to remember an unknown 16 year old Joe Royal being given his debut at the expense of Goodison idol Alex Young.

What chance have young players ever got of making a name for themselves, if the manager seemingly flatly refuses them the opportunity? It must be especially disheartening for our youngsters when senior players are regularly performing like donkeys.

Young Branthwaite should be chanced again in the heart of defence and Dobbin up front. We may assume by his non appearance that Gbamin will not be tried any time soon. With Doucouré out, it would seem the other options are Gomes (again) or perhaps Holgate pushed into midfield. I recall he had some success when called upon to fill the role in Big Dunc's short reign.

"It's your own fault, nobody made you stay up that late, you should know better" (the 'at your age', left unspoken), said herself.

All true, I should know better. But so should Benitez and, to an extent, the players... and Moshiri too, but forget him. He's a lost cause, but also part of the cause.

Blame: Is Benitez 100% to blame? How does the Blame Pie Chart look?

For me, it's pretty well spread: players, manager, interfering owner... Some might say "Look at the chicken-and-egg aspect, which came first?" Well, then I'd rank it thus:

Interfering owner, who made poor appointments, which led to...

Poor players; but the players weren't that poor when we were winning 2-1, which leads us to...

The manager; he fucked up last week twice, once by selecting Iwobi, once by not hooking him off at half-time. And he fucked up again this week by bringing him on.

He did the worst thing possible – he changed our dynamic, our ethos... what little we had... we were, somewhat, in the driving seat, then he unbalanced us – he brought on I-fucking-wobi.

Disclaimer: I have been arguing for King since before the emergence of Calvert-Lewin... and who would blame him if he left us? Seriously though, The Barcodes? Possible relegation?... Fuck it, I'll take a chance?

Lukaku left; I wanted him last season. Then we got King and he was last season's Rondon, he looked shite-er than shite, albeit under used.

Is there something in the water at Finch Farm?

Anyway, blame: All the above – and a few more – must share. Benitez isn't 100% to blame.

But it is 100% his job to fix it. If it wasn't for his no doubt huge undisclosed (to me at least) wages, I'd even feel a bit sorry for him... nah. But I do feel sorry for us though.

I also miss the cushions, it wasn't a proper debacle until the cushions rained down, but this will do until one comes along... Did I mention laughing stock? No? Never mind, but it's getting that way.

If he does not make some very big decisions regarding the Kenwright role, Brands and the coaching staff, then we will be playing championship football soon.

Benitez was always going to divide us as supporters and it was never going to take much for most of us to turn in him.

The Man Utd game gave me hope that we could alter our play to suit and I enjoyed that game but what I have seen the past two games is pure negligence.

Playing Rondon is incredibly stubborn. His legs have gone and he offers zero to the rest of the team. I actually think that even if Rondon had got injured the Benitez may well have put Iwobi up from rather than give Dobbin a go.

It was hard enough being with a couple of fellow blues last night watching that shit unfold on TV as we had different views on why it happened and how to fix it but I can only imagine the torment of being at the game then in the pubs trying to come to terms with the mess we find ourselves in.

My view is that Moshiri needs to be put under pressure by the supporters to sort the mess out with proper business decisions. He has thrown way too much money around in hope and it's constantly backfired. We can't go on like this and there has to be big changes in getting the club organized in a professional way with the focus on winning trophies.

Right now, we are nothing but Sunderland, Leeds, Newcastle and Norwich – all rolled into one.

The blame lies firmly on Moshiri. Spent £500M and what has Benitez got to work with? A championship team at best. Utterly embarrasing last 3 goals that a Sunday pub side would be unhappy to ship.

In saying that, Benitez isn't blameless here. Gordon was playing well and should have stayed on. Rondon isn't unfit, he's just no good. Godfrey isn't at the races at all.

I thought Silva was back in charge of our set piece defending as it's terrible. We never controlled the game at all.

Davies did okay but again isn't good enough. It's going to be a long and possibly disastrous season at this rate

Can't wait for the derby. We will hear Seamus give a rallying call in The Echo. Snodders will say "Form goes out the window". We will even get the “like a new signing” experience with Gomes returning.

Then they'll go out and do what they did versus Man City last season, only with the RS fired up, it'll be 10-0. Icing on the cake will be RS fans showering Benitez in scarfs, Houllier style.

1) Last season, for the first season in ages, we looked fairly solid at defending set-peices. According to data on whoscored.com, we conceded 7 from set pieces all season. This season, we have conceded 5 from 9 assuming their data is correct.

So why on earth would you change something that was working quite well with the same players? Surely there were other priorities to work on?

2) I always feel quite sad when fans start boo-ing their own team, manager, chairman and turning the environment toxic. I get the frustration at the shoddy performance and the defensive calamity at the end. But I just can't see how turning on the club is helping the situation in any way.

Vote with your feet, go punch a bag and use that energy elsewhere or write a strongly worded letter to the club! Let's face it, we've got a small, bang average squad. Turning on the club at this time will not change that fact.

After 11 games, things are perilously close to turning toxic given the humiliation yesterday. When managers stubbornly continue to make decisions that supporters can evidently see are poorly-judged, such as the selection of the woeful Rondon, then they lower credibility very quickly. As Martinez and Silva found, once lost it is never regained.

Overall, Benitez has done better than I expected and still has some credit in the bank. I didn't want him and I don't like him, but we have out-performed where I thought we would be, given this is a transition season ahead of a major reset of the squad (and hopefully the club).

Look at the squad status compared to last season:

Gone or unavailable: James, Nameless One, King, Olsen
Not fully fit: Richarlison, Gbamin
Injures: Doucouré, Mina, Calvert-Lewin, Gomes, Delph, Tosun
Loaned out: Kean, Nkonkou (go figure) and Virginia.
In: Townsend, Gray, Rondon, Begovic and Lonergan.

The one thing that cheered me up this week was reading that Benitez was doing a major review of all footballing departments in the club. That should be extended to a fundamental review of all non-footballing departments as well. Time to clean house if we are to change.

If nothing else, Benitez may as well remain to get that review done properly. After seeing his face yesterday, I don't think he will be taking an incremental approach to that process!

When King left he was very respectful about the club and the fans but he was not complimentary about Carlo. I know today apparently he was mouthing off but, in fairness, he was never given a chance here, so good for him for showing us what he can do.

Thinking back to last season and our dire 0-1 losses to the likes of Sheff Utd, you can understand his frustration.

Misplaces passes all afternoon. Danced around repeatedly. Always appearing where the ball has just been. And offering nothing (and I do mean nothing) going forward.

Some heavy crticism above, much of it fair, but why, oh why is this guy allowed to have Weston after Weston and escape the criticism his play so richly deserves?

He's Brazilian, you know...

I can't comment a lot as I didn't see it and haven't watched any highlights yet, which wouldn't give me the full picture, but that result against that team is just highly embarrassing. I don't need to see it.

My son, who was there, was fuming. "Disjointed and all over the place" were his main points.

Apparently Coleman having a spat with the fans in the Bullens at the end?

Not good signs.

After this is done, you have a nucleus and then the identification of what is required and what we can afford.

To Moshiri, I hope you are good at creative accounting. You may tell Benitez to buy solid replacements but there is no substitute for class. Or money.

I'm not an insider so I'm certainly not able to tell you how responsible the man himself is for this failure. Perhaps other senior people are interfering in his duties. Perhaps he offers the very best advice to the board and they decide to go in the absolute opposite direction regardless.

I'm wholly unsure as to why he has not done his job, but feel at this point that's pretty much immaterial. He hasn't done his job or anywhere near it – we patently have one of the thinnest squads in the entire league. He has failed, totally, and he ought to go. He ought to be, indeed, long gone.

I suspect Benitez's "root and branch" review of the entire football side of operations will conclude the same thing, and shortly after, the dapper Dutchman will be out the plane with his golden parachute.

When this happens, most Evertonians will shrug, say "it's not my money" or repeat some nonsense about how the club can "learn" from a disastrous appointment and move forward.

The next guy won't be as bad!

For some, the penny will never drop. When you have incompetents appointing incompetents, you get this. This coming winter will make or break this club.

What's beyond belief is that we know that next week Rondon will again be given the opportunity to make us a complete laughing stock and Iwobi will either start or be brought on to ensure the opposition get the points.

Rondon is the new virus fresh out of China. Will kill any football club stone dead within weeks.

What I didn't realise was that Rafa is a big Star Wars fan – repeatedly picking his footballing Jedi warrior, Obi Wank Iwobi, and bringing in Jabba the Hutt to play centre-forward.

Or “You can't play Gbamin – he hasn't played for two years.”

Well, the playing of Rondon for 90 minutes every match in a real-time experiment to get him from zero to match-fit illustrates perfectly that you can play returning players when not totally ready if needs must.

And don't get me started on “young” Dobbin, who is only starting out on his career and therefore “must” be protected, and is seemingly made of some material that will break on contact with any big bad defender over the age of 21.

He's been kicking a ball since he was in nappies! I never want to hear these excuses from people again.

Or so I thought. Sold out already. Interesting they still have tickets for the 2 fixtures prior to that, Leicester & Norwich.

Are we still considered big fish? Or can they smell blood?

Tom Davies is nowhere near as bad as some make out but the airshot and sliding over the ball for the second and fifth goals were schoolboy stuff. He also lost Josh King for their first goal.

Michael Keane's positioning got a lot of debate on last week's match thread. He looked a good 10-15 yards behind everyone else on Watford's third goal then charged out to the man in possession, giving him an easy decision to play King into the acres of space where he had left him.

He also bought a dummy that King wasn't even selling on the fourth goal. His decision making is very erratic and he doesn't have the pace to recover when caught out of position.

(nb: for the pedantic of this parish, I don't literally mean acres nor have I measured 10-15 yards but that's how it appeared in real time.)

In 6 months time, we'll be talking about Townsend for what he has been doing all his career. Frustratingly inconsistent, capable of moments of brilliance far outweighed by the more regular mediocrity and wastefulness.

Allan and Davies are too lightweight as a combination. Pushed off the ball, not even challenging in the air and being strolled past.

Covid or no Covid, Godfrey is not the answer at centre half. He might look the part but he rarely plays it. He's currently our fourth best option there. When posters are lamenting the loss of Mina, you know things are bad.

Lucas Digne's signature move is to look back when the ball has sailed over his head, with an “Oh shit!” expression as he sprints in vain to catch a winger who has just stolen a 10-yard head start.

Benitez has a big month ahead of him. If he keeps making the same mistakes he has been making (and in some cases getting away with), then Goodison will become unforgiving.

The appropriate and proportional reaction is to sack Rafa, Brands, Unsworth, and Kenwright with *immediate* effect.

Rafa is going to continue his zonal marking, and he's going to continue to flood the squad with aging 30+ players. He'll continue with Rondon and Iwobi over Dobbin and Gordon. He is simply the wrong manager for this club.

Brands, Kenwright and Unsworth have left us with an U23 side that resembles an U20 team and is missing vital components such as left backs (one left back in entire setup..wtf). The entire recruitment process has been a disaster…..

Player wise, we made the mistake of not capitalising on Digne value in the summer. We had a chance to ship him out and tell Niels and Small they were competing for the Number 3. Instead, we give him a long, fat contract and ship out the two promising youngsters. If this isn't everything that's wrong with our approach, I don't know what is.

Start fixing it now. Get a manager in immediately who's going to blood the likes of Branthwaite, Onyango, Dobbin, Simms, Tyrer, etc – not another offering precious wages to over the hill players like Rondon, Begovic, and Lonergan, and ongoing places to perennial under-achievers like Keane and Iwobi.

Personally, I still think it's time for Duncan to sink or swim, but not sure what's happened to stop it last time. Lampard, Hasenhüttl, Scott Parker, Eddie Howe and even someone like Tim Cahill (Arteta doing ok!) offer more progressive options than the Fat Spanish Waiter.

Unfortunately, however, I think Moshiri will carry on with the poor decisions and do none of this… and, for that reason, maybe it's time to ask if he should stay?

He's got a big heart, I'm grateful for the dice rolling he's done, and the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is a miracle he's created… but it'll be an unserviceable debt if we end up in the Championship, and that's the trajectory we're currently on.

Richarlison contributed more in his 30 minutes on the pitch than Rondon has in seven games – match fit or not.

King at Everton: 14 st, Unfit, Slow, Lacking awareness, Poor passing.

The difference is program application and training off the pitch. If the players are being trained to this latter standard and injuries are caused by poor preparation, one would also question the ability to access incoming players and recovery programs. There isn't even an acceptable standard there for coaching to take place.

This also explains and translates into the poor performance of other Everton players over the past two games.

Everton needs change from top to bottom or 'Across the board' as Benitez said before the match. He has realised over the International break that there are barriers to progress at Finch Farm structurally supported by internal management.

The management of the club off the pitch is mediocre and has been for years. One other factor is that Everton have recruited a number of mediocre players, who bring down the standards of other players. They are at Everton because assessment standards are poor – a reflection of poor standards at the club.

I wonder why?

Lineker must have run to the studio!!

And if Arteta is doing well, then we're technically on par in terms of league position at this stage. Just because they beat Villa and we lost to Watford doesn't make a season. They've been plagued by inconsistency too. See where we are at Christmas. That gives you a better idea of where you are in my experience. And my own scratched record; the season ends in May.

Back to yesterday. Again, having not attended or watched, I am going off comments on here and reports. Not sure the calling out of individual players is what the problem seemed to be yesterday, but I'll come back to that. Collectively, a poor team performance by the sounds of it. And included in that is the manager. We can single players out for individual mistakes and blame in a certain situation. But overall, a dreadful team performance.

So back to individuals. We surely can't persist with Rondon. Even in the absence of Calvert-Lewin. Iwobi still looks confused and lacking confidence. He may train well, but can't replicate it on the big stage.

And then poor substitutions by the manager. Just as we get ourselves in front, he changes it, when maybe we could have gained some momentum, with the key change already being made in Richarlison.

Like I say, this week, my observations are based on what you lot are telling me and reading reports, as well as talking to my son.

I don't believe for one minute a manager with his experience and know-how – four times, yes, four times he has picked a forward that is going to put his job and reputation in shreds... Unless he's had enough maybe personally and wants out because of abuse or danger to his family.

Remember the burglary with the last manager? Although he was next to useless anyway.

Plus where is the attention to detail he is renowned for at least? Set-piece conceding should be a thing of the past with Martinez and so on.

The reason Rafa is here is that he will gather enough points for a safe, mid-table finish. Blooding all those youngsters would mean relegation. However, surely Dobbin instead of the sweaty statue could never be any worse.

Benitez made some mistakes in his timings and of course the zonal marking was poor, but watching the highlights this morning displayed exactly what went wrong.

The midfield got caught high up the park, the defenders were out of position, Keane kept playing them onside, people dived in, and the ball simply was not cleared.

Chaos ensued as we chased an equaliser. If we had simply lost 2-3, we wouldn't be quite so outraged.

The players let us down. Only Pickford, Gordon and Richarlison can consider themselves blame-free.

It is very similar to last season at home to so-called lesser teams. We thought we could blow Watford away and we were not tough enough in the battles, diving, falling over, sliding in. Watford out-wrestled us and then out-played us.

We know that Godfrey & Keane doesn't work. We also know that Davies & Allan is too slow. Digne is living on past endeavours and Seamus is struggling.

And Rondon did nothing again.

There was a litany of problems yesterday, obviously, but the one that has plagued us all season is set-piece vulnerability – a strength of ours last season. I believe we are in the bottom 2 in the league for chances given up at set-pieces and Watford's first two goals came that way recently.

We seem to be employing a mainly zonal system, unlike the hybrid Davide Ancelotti utilised last year. It's really hurting us and could be the hill Benitez dies on (like Marco Silva) unless he fixes it or finds someone who can.

"I have a lot of confidence in my staff but if we have to do something then we will do it” he said. “One thing I want to be very clear is that I am trying to improve every single department. The fans, the club, the owners who have spent a lot of money, they are desperate to be competitive.

“I said in one press conference that 8th [place] means nothing to me and I really mean that. I don't want to stay here and try to survive. I want to be sure I can improve anything with my experience, my view and my staff. ”

Benítez's demand includes recruitment. “The main thing will be the players” he said. “I am not stupid. It depends on the players what we do on the pitch. I want to be sure every player understands what it means to play for this club and go on the pitch in front of the fans and give everything. They are doing that and I think the fans appreciate the effort of the players. But it has to be the same in each department.

“When you see the money spent, the club has to be in a much better position. You have to compete against all the teams and it is not straight away that you start winning games and doing everything right. I will be the first to make mistakes, but I have experience and I want to win. How can we win? By improving 5%-10% in each department. ”

Obviously things have come to head over the International break and the Finch Farm downed tools has kicked in as a reaction. This is reflected in the two performances after the International break. The fact that Benitez has gone public, like Ancelotti, shows how high tensions are at Finch Farm and with the internal management of the club.

I'm guessing this week's distraction strategy will bring either another one of Darren's reports on ‘major progress at Bramley-Moore Dock' or a new initiative from EitC or an email from the club signed of with ‘NSNO. Denise'.

Perhaps one of ToffeeWeb's ITK posters could advise what was said in the dressing room yesterday?

Digne, Godfrey, Coleman, Keane, Davies and Rondon were absolutely pathetic yesterday. The highlights especially showed just how bad Keane and Davies are. Physically weak and slow. Mentally deficient, both of them.

Benitez needs to take his fair share of blame as Gordon should've stayed on, Rondon replaced by Richarlison and Gbamin on for a flagging Tom Davies. Surely Gbamin could've given us 15 mins at least?

My views on Iwobi are well known but surely that has to be his last appearance in an Everton shirt. The man celebrated at the end with Josh King ffs! Get him and Rondon out ASAP. Neither of them look like they can be arsed playing for Everton.

There is something wrong at the club. Lack of courage, lack of belief, the weirdly long time since we won anything. It's almost as though the players get infected with the pointlessness of it all.

The relentless and direct and awkward style Benitez has created is a good fit for us – and a way out of this misery if everyone buys in. Unfortunately, it's not been a good fit for stop-gap players making up the numbers. We should stick with it and we should stick with him while he builds the playing staff in that style.

But where is the genuine leader in this team? We are desperately missing a cult leader in the dressing room who cares.

Why is it that every player that comes to us seems to slip into the same habits? There are very few who actually get better and they're usually sold on with that money reinvested poorly. For all the bleating about Benitez et al, it's the management of the club from the top down that's the problem.

The best way to affect this would probably be relegation and then the rats would start to flee and the decks could be cleared. But without some sort of continued fan action, the drift will just continue and Kenwright the great actor has played an absolute blinder over the years. It's his club, not yours, and he's done all this… not you.

“Moshiri should have hired so and so and done this when he came in” is what I hear a lot but this wasn't part of the agreement. The agreement was that he bought the shares (as an investor) but Bill kept control of the trainset because Farhad is a tax exile in Monaco.

But Bill lives in London and knows nothing about football, finances, marketing etc and Professor Barrett-Baxendale (arf) was brought in to run the charity side (2010). Elstone was better qualified than her but being a Kenwright acolyte has it's obvious advantages.

It's a complete mess and probably worse for the £500M spent, which is utterly incredible but also highlights the complete lack of strategy, vision and relevant management. Can you imagine Liverpool Football Club being run like this? Or their fans putting up with it? How sad.

We accept a lot of shite, us Evertonians, but maybe it's time we started demanding answers from Moshiri and his Chairman, because with FFP “allegedly” crippling Everton, the silence towards a fanbase that could go toxic, or something just as bad if it's apathy that sets in, makes me feel that our owner could be in for a big shock soon. I honestly feel that persisting with Iwobi and Rondon will soon take around 20% off our matchday crowd.

The difference between Arteta and Rafa is that the former is building a youthful team that plays attractive football. We may be level now, but we will not be at the end of the season.

Eddie @264,

Alan Hansen predicted kids equalled doom once too, but imho it'll be Rondon, Keane, Iwobi and (sorry to say) 33-year-old Coleman who'll lead us there faster. Short-term mediocrity is not better than a gamble on long-term success.

If Benitez is allowed to get on with the job without hindrance from the board, the better it will be for us fans in the long run. If he is allowed to go, then this disfunctional club will carry on in the same old way and eventually join the band of once proud members of the top leagues. They will become “an also-ran” going up and down the lower leagues. That's how bad we are now and how close to ceasing to be of any significance.

Kenwright and Brands are in charge of running the club. Moshiri with his hands-off, laissez-faire, hiding in Monte Carlo approach, is responsible overall for this shit show.

We can't get rid of Moshiri for the foreseeable future (until the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is built) but surely he can get rid of these two useless, moronic fuckwits? That is unless there's a secret clause in his takeover of the club, à la Ribbentrop-Molotov pact?

Right now, Moshiri (or his boss) is the only one who can save us from further ignominy. Kenwright has continually out-manoeuvred, out-thought and out-witted him by placing his cronies from board level to the Under-12s. Kenwright is the real owner of Everton FC. He's more dangerous now than ever as he is a very rich man (thanks to Moshiri) and no longer feels the need to kowtow to anyone for financial support.

Act now, Moshiri, or risk losing everything!!

I do honestly believe that Benitez can be a decent boss for Everton but he needs help on the pitch. When and who was the last time we had a real fire-and-brimstone Captain – someone with respect who could chivvy up players on the pitch, kick or console as required, and let rip in the dressing room after a capitulation like yesterday?

Where's our John Terry, Jordan Henderson, Steven Gerrard, Kevin Ratcliffe, Roy Keane, Tony Adams etc etc? To answer my own question, the closest has probably been Phil Neville.

As for yesterday, I assume it was Seamus but I can't say for sure who was our captain – I saw no evidence of a leader on the pitch. Our entire squad seem to be made up of characters with the mental fortitude of a kitten.

With one exception and I can't stand the bloke... The only squad member we have with the balls to call out the players when needed is probably sick-note Fabian Delph and he has not done enough to earn the necessary respect or game time(*).

He epitomises our entire plight in some ways because the whole set-up is a bit of a sicknote right now.

(* Addendum – I could possibly suggest Pickford but he plays in the wrong position.)

We all accepted that his fitness may be suspect but, 2 months later, there has been no noticeable improvement in his speed, stamina etc. The man's first touch is poor, his ability in the air pathetic and so on. Benitez has to accept that whatever skills Rondon had are long gone. Putting it quite simply: Rondon is awful and a liability.

His faith in Iwobi is misplaced. If not in the starting Xl, he is Benitez's default substitute. Again, we have a player who just doesn't have it.

Godfrey, who was a star last season, clearly hasn't recovered fully from Covid and needs to be managed better.

I had hoped that Benitez could bring some structure, organisation and confidence to the team but I can only see us struggle under him.

Let's wait and see if any of the players come out with usual rhetoric after such a poor performance. Hopefully this trait has been nipped in the bud.

Difficult week in work but I'm immune to the RS now, it's in the DNA.

I feel sorry for the younger generations of Evertonians. Train hard all week (allegedly) to play like a pub team, and arguably “throw the game away” in 13 minutes of chaos and capitulation on the pitch.

The Keystone Cops, back to front, was on show yesterday.

It's going to be a tough couple of months and Christmas at Everton. Let's see the character of the manager and this squad to face up to the challenges ahead.

Do they have the stomach? Rafa does but some of the players don't.

January sales, who knows.

"I don't want to stay here and try to survive. I want to be sure I can improve anything with my experience, my view and my staff. "

This has all the appearance of a marker: "If I am not supported and change takes place, I will be leaving. " He has effectively launched an attack on players available, Finch Farm, and the internal management of the club, and made an ultimatum.

Geoff #277,

Who do you suggest as manager to replace Benitez, and do you think they would want the job?

I don't see how you can give Pickford a free ride yesterday. He was a bag of nerves all day long, shanking the ball into the crowd every time he touched it. He has zero command of his area, zero organisation and, given the lack of an outfield leader, he has to at least take decisions in his own box on set-pieces, rather than standing fixed on his line.

I just saw your post after posting my own. Seem to be saying much the same thing but with fewer words. I agree.

I respect your opinion about Pickford, but two things for me: if Pickford booting the ball into play 60 or 70 yards away from his goal (not deliberately, by the way) is a criticism, then it's something I can put up with, as it means the opposition can't score. Okay, he's giving up possession but at least there's a chance of winning the ball back.

Also, you mention about him being rooted to his goal line. Well, let's face it, if you or indeed I were playing behind Keane, I would also stay rooted to my line. For some reason, there seems to be fewer and fewer fouls given on goalkeepers who come and try to collect a ball and appear to be fouled, and also, because we defend so deep, Pickford has little chance of charging through a cluster of bodies to try and claim a ball. He could well end up clattering an opponent and giving a penalty away.

As I say, it's all about opinions, but until we start defending with a higher line, then Pickford is going to remain nearer to his goal line than the edge of the penalty area. When I played in goal, I made it my business to “patrol” the edge of my penalty area, acting as a “sweeper” for any balls over the top of the defence. Pickford never does this because we defend too deep.

I'm not surprised by the usual players being blamed as not good enough etc. Heard it many times before. But that is what we have and it's not going to change anytime soon.

And I didn't agree with the manager's subs either, but I rarely do of any manager.

We win as a team and lose as a team. I don't think it would be fair to blame any single individual after that collapse. Too many tired looking players out of position and no leadership.

In a dreadful game in which we constantly conceded possession (nothing new there), the relief when Richarlison put us in front was palpable. Benitez compounded last week's mistake of omitting Gordon for the phoney that is multi-millionaire football impressionist, Iwobi, by removing Gordon, who was one of the few prepared to take the ball forward.

I agree with everything that has been said about Rondon, he is a non-entity on a par with Iwobi and I can only assume Rafa gets a kickback from his agent.

The next 10 games must be faced without Doucouré which leaves us with the horrendous prospect of Allan and Davies attempting to control the centre of the park for us, unless we dredge the barrel and pull out Delph, Gbamin or Gomes, god help us!

We need Mina back next to Keane ASAP; poor old Seamus has been finished at this level for several years and Digne is a poor defender, he can't tackle and constantly concedes needless free-kicks, he's also weak and his crossing is frankly fucking gash.

Let's try Richarlison up top with Gray in the Number 10 role, Gordon down one flank and Townsend down the other.

I agree with others who have said that the whole club needs to be restructured from top to bottom, starting at Finch Farm with a total clear-out of all the hangers-on.

I have put 50 years of my life into following Everton, they're in my blood, but we are now irrelevant in English football and, unless we have radical change within the running of the club, then I can only see us going the same way as some of the other once-famous clubs who have dropped away, never to return.

Of course, we can all see what Pickford is doing, but I stand by what I posted earlier.

If I had a coconut, I would give it to you. In fact, I would give you the whole lorry load. Bravo and spot on with your post. Us old arses know where the real problem lies, and I just hope upon hope that the coffee is well and truly smelled before it is too late. Or has it been too late, for too long now?

I wasn't up for Rafa coming in the first place, but I thought "Hello, maybe he can work some magic?" I was wrong; alas, it is looking increasingly possible, I was right.

Why he is sticking with Rondon beggars belief, even more than why he brought him to us, in favour of letting Josh King go on a free! What is it with all these 'Frees' we mistakenly (often) buy a player for £XM, usually against the fans' preference, and bingo – the fans are proved right! Then, instead of trying to recoup some money, they go buckshee!

Tottenham at Home next? Have they got a player who has never scored or one who allegedly can't hit a cow's arse with a certain musical stringed instrument? Welcome to Goodison, the goal and defence is gaping and ready for you!

It has been reported that Keith Harris, the finance guy, stated that it was written into the takeover deal that Kenwright could remain Chairman as long as he wanted. Kenwright got a good owner for Kenwright, not for the club.

At 1-0, we had a couple of good chances to increase the lead. Gordon with a headed chance that shows that he can't head the ball being the best.

At 1-1, we had chances where the ball just wouldn't fall right. Again, Gordon involved, which is a good sign for the lad. That push in the back is a penalty at Old Trafford or Stmford Bridge.

2nd half was a close-run thing with chances either end. Coleman having a go at the Paddock isn't great from the club captain then Richarlison with a header from a great ball from Keane put us ahead.

This is the turning point in the game. We persist with the same formation, like-for-like sub. Ranieri gambled and put 2 attack-minded players on. The gamble paid off.

For 77 minutes, the game was pretty even; two average sides slugging it out. Our entire defence looked shaky from the start but you have to give credit to Watford. All of their players contested every ball; even if they haven't got the quality, they have the endeavour and aggression.

The last 15-minutes of comedy defending is unacceptable. We will probably play at least 3 of those defenders all season as we don't have sufficient cover.

If King would have shown half of that aggression last season, he might have earnt a contract. He was MotM by a mile. I would give our MotM to Gordon. His best game for us.

It's available under “Articles”. Its prescience is frightening.

So I'll flip that last point around. It can't be easy being a keeper playing behind that defence.

Jordan receives much-deserved criticism, but he has also been much improved since around last January, in my opinion.

Digne is very disappointing. What worries me is that there's no cover for left-back at all. Even when his form is bad, there's no other option.

Keane is the only one who can make a long accurate pass. He assisted again. For consistent performance, the first choice pairing would be Mina and Keane for now.

Is Dobbin a better choice? I haven't seen him play. But it sounds like he's the answer to the current striker crisis.

In the same way that we weren't Champions League contenders after seven games, we aren't relegation candidates after two. Pickford, Digne, Allan and Keane can all still play a role; Godfrey is still suffering from a serious bout of Covid.

But we still have players around the first team squad who just will not be good enough for us. Most of us can see who they are. Rondon (I'm not one for hyperbole but he has produced some of the worst performances in a blue shirt I've ever seen), Iwobi, Delph, Gomes, Tosun, and yes Holgate and Davies.

The squad needs rebuilding, the manager needs to be backed, the recruitment needs to be smarter... or guess what: it's just more of the same.

Yes, it isn't nice to hear the boos at Goodison Park, but sometimes they are deserved, and yesterday, in my opinion, was one of those days.

I won't be voting with my feet as I am a season ticket holder and they already have my money.

I am also not going to punch a bag, as I would definitely come off worse at my age. I may however try your third suggestion.

Sometimes, I feel the whole club need to see how the fans feel, and there was no hiding from that yesterday. Except perhaps, from Mr Congeniality... Iwobi.

Rafa Benitez got caught out by the weather yesterday – it rained and he went out in shorts and a T-shirt.

The systemic problems at the club level reflect the climate over the last 30 years. Colin @275 is absolutely correct to call it out as it is. I applaud Rafa Benitez for indicating he wants 10% more from everybody – that is political speak for saying it is a joke behind the scenes. The atmosphere at Finch Farm must indeed be toxic with the Rafa crew and the Kenwright crew and Moshiri must act now in the best interest of Everton Football Club.

We have spiralled downwards for the whole of the Kenwright era but the acceleration since he gained Moshiri's shield (and money) is staggeringly fast. Unless Moshiri takes action, he is not going to see anything other than Championship football at his new ground – all the while, Kenwright and his appointees are getting fat and living high off the hog and hiding behind Moshiri.

The story of Everton post-1990 is a tragedy – the worst of which is yet to happen – all under the watchful eye of Kenwright. I hope if Goodison Park does get toxic in the coming weeks, the ire is towards the Directors Box.

It was mentioned on another thread about season ticket prices that people may start looking at how they spend their hard-earned money. Our support has stood up really well over the last 30 years but the days of dwindling fan numbers must be coming at some point with this current set-up.

They definitely deserved booing off; too many players didn't turn up. I don't consider that a hysterical reaction but calling for the manager to be sacked or claiming our keeper is a problem, who was the only reason it wasn't seven yesterday, is in my view.

It's now more than 5 years since Moshiri took control of the club, and we have replaced managers practically every 18 months to 2 years – each have walked away with a king's ransom. I think if you add up all the settlements paid to our now ex-managers, they probably exceed what our most expensive signing cost.

During those 5 years, Moshiri and his friend Alisher Usmanov have invested over £450 million on players, yet this club has gone backwards under his control. Our Academy produces very little and you have to ask: Just what role has Moshiri asked Brands to do?

I always believe that managers should have the final say on players as, at the end of the day, it's them who get sacked and not the Director of Football. We were told that Brands works closely with managers on potential recruits, so who is actually buying the players?

And if as I suspect, it's both the manager and the Director of Football, is it any wonder we have such a dysfunctional set-up. This same set up was here when Walsh was the Director of Football to Koeman and that was an unmitigated disaster.

Now, with money needed to fund the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock, then I suspect we will be shopping in the loans and basement departments when the transfer windows in January and the summer come around.

There is so much wrong at Everton and unfortunately we have a man in charge who has contributed to this debacle and – even more worrying – he doesn't seem to know how to get us out of this mess.

Darren is rightly critical of yesterday's showing by Allan – for balance, I'd add that Tom Davies, despite his dream start, was equally bad.

Our attacking coach, Duncan Ferguson, took all the plaudits for Calvert-Lewin's improvement last season. So what input has he had into the inept performances of the lumbering Rondon? At the very least, he should be in Benitez's ear about them and about his repeated selection and retention on the field.

I could be wrong but I suspect that job preservation might be his first priority. I for one haven't forgotten his angry response to our fans at Stoke for their temerity in criticising his then boss, Fat Sam.

Brian #300 – makes me wish we'd kept that squad (which included Stones, Lukaku, Barkley and Deulofeu) and spent the money on the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock, the construction of which it would have gone a long way to covering!

Agree with all that. I also forced myself to watch the lowlights to see where it all went wrong.

Davies not marking King for the first goal.
Davies air shot leading to corner and then Digne & Davies not covering behind Godfrey, leaving a free header for the 2nd goal from the corner
Digne ducking out of a header and Davies not challenging for the 3rd – although why was Keane so deep?
Allan, Godfery & Digne in each other's way for the 4th.
Davies air shot trying to block the cross for the 5th.

Digne and Keane were dreadful all match. I have never known such a passive and weak defender as Keane – defensively, he was all over the shop. What has happened to Digne? No pace, his deadballs are dreadful and above all, no will to win.

I was hoping that Davies would really take his opportunity with Doucouré out for a while but, even with the confidence of an early goal, it is clear that he does not have the strength, pace or speed of thought to make it at the top level.

As for Rondon… I have never known such an ineffective forward play for Everton. If you watch every cross that is played into the box, he is seen running in the wrong direction. He's not even trying to get onto the end of any of the crosses. With him in the team, we are playing with 10 men. He is not an outlet as he never wins any physical battles with defenders, he's not quick. He's had 8 weeks to get fit, so that cannot be used as an excuse. If he's not fit now, then he will never be.

Pickford, Gordon, Richarlison and Gray are the only players who weren't awful.

Rafa's decision to leave his favourite on and replace Gordon for Richarlison set the tone. By going 2 up front, he exposed the centre of midfield. Bringing Iwobi on for Gray put us down to 9 men.

There are no leaders on the pitch and the leader off the pitch appears to be playing the "I know more than you" game. Well, he's wrong – Rondon and Iwobi are not good enough for Everton. He cannot keep wasting 2 shirts by playing them both.

Rafa's honeymoon period is over.

Good points, Martin. To repeat myself on 3 points, when it's that bad, it's a collectively poor team performance probably with several or more bad performances contributing.

There are too many people in positions who are too comfortable. And we can't keep blaming managers.

A soul-searching few days, a wake-up call, a reality check, a kick up the arse and dust down ready for Wolves.

And that's just me. I hope the players feel the same.

Maybe Rafa getting mixed up, thinking he is playing a false Number 9. He is a false Number 9.

He's impressively turned us back 3 years (in less than 3 months) on our ability to defend set-pieces, and signed five players with an average age of 32.

He's playing a system that sees us concede possession to teams like West Ham, Norwich, Southampton and Watford.

He's persisting with a system that worked in the early days of the season when teams were not fully up to speed, even though other teams have sussed it themselves (1 win in 5 now?).

He's sticking with players in poor form, and substituting those who are showing us the most promise.

Sure, he's been very unlucky with injuries, and inheriting a very poor and disjointed squad, but there is enough there to adapt and certainly enough to beat the likes of Watford at home.

All the ranting in the world isn't going to help. He isn't getting sacked, not until Moshiri sees the threat of relegation looming at Christmas time… and god help who we end up with then. (Is Sam still free?)

I want to see him change the system in the next games. Accept our midfield isn't good enough for a “2” in the middle and – until we get Calvert-Lewin back – play a 4-3-3, with a defensive midfielder sat shielding, and goal threats in the front 3. I'd also like to see Digne dropped until he gets his head back on. All being fit:

Pickford
Holgate Mina Keane Godfrey
Gomes Gbamin Allan
Gray Richarlison Gordon

Move Richarlison to the left if Gordon tires and bring a young lad on up top.

Nope – by any definition, looking to sack a manager after 9 games and 14 points is a hysterical reaction, especially given he inherited the squad and has had pretty awful injury luck.

Of course that's not to say he'll make a fist of it and won't end up getting sacked. But he's got to be given the opportunity.

Also, dropping Townsend is beyond laughable.

I agree with others who have said that it's behind the scenes where we fall down, recruitement over the years has been poor.

To be fair, at the moment, we are well and truly peeing into the wind, what with injuries and lacking good enough back-up, not to mention our arrested midfielder – what the hell is happening with that case?

As we are we are a middle-of-the-table team at best.

I'd agree on the 4-3-3 based on injuries and availability. I thought we'd do it against West Ham to be honest.

Sacking a manager after a bad defeat and 2 losses and an embarrassment in October? Not the answer at all.

Back to business; I agree with Colin that this is our Moshiri moment: you could not appoint Rafa and not calculate that this might happen. Kim also has it right that, with the loss of form, we have eroded any field leadership.

Carlo didn't help build that up but we knew it was a weakness and we just went on without shoring that up in any way. Penalty fiascos should have been a sign and some symbolism after James's exit would have helped

We're here now so please get real and avoid the histrionics. We need to pull together and ride out this ugly episode.

Advance apology for future forum transgressions. It's football and it's Everton, what can I do?

Somebody wrote yesterday that the club is no more than a 'clusterfuck' and whilst I know not what that means, it sounds about right on this sad Sunday morning !

No the laughable thing is not playing the player who has scored the most goals, had the second most assists and created the most chances this season. Other than those minor details, it sounds a reasonable approach.

It kind of reminds me of the sometimes sympathy I have with managers who are interviewed (presumably contractual with the TV firms) in the immediate aftermath of a fixture when emotions are still running high.

I know it's done for viewing impact and entertainment, but sometimes, just give them time to settle their thoughts.

And remind me why he can't play in a 4-3-3? He works hard, he's still got pace, he can beat a man, he can cross a ball of either foot and he can score goals.

Do we put him in the middle 3 where he bummed out for Palace or sacrifice Anthony for him? Guessing by your comments, you'd prefer to see him in for Gordon? Guess there's some short-term safety argument in that. Rafa-esque I guess.

This is only my second season so I need to settle into the game a bit.

It's not hard: he gets in ahead of Gordon. Of course he does. I'm not against Gordon by the way, he'll get chances this season, I suspect, and hopefully will develop into a decent player.

But you play the players who most consistently produce and, for the start of his Everton career, he has. Pretty straight-forward.

I am disgusted with the club, especially Brands, who seems to be able to spot dross with unerring accuracy. But if Usmanov is pulling the strings from the background, it's about time he gave Moshiri instruction about getting rid of the deadweight Kenwright et al who are holding the club back.

Kenwright could become a big part of the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock if they dump him in the concrete foundations.

It's my final point, because attacking Townsend was zero part of my actual point originally. That was that I think there are numerous reasons why Rafa will be a disaster for this club, and one of those will be not adapting the system to those available and in form.

Only time will tell whether I'm right or wrong, but for me all the signs are bad so far… with Grey and Andros being the only cause for optimism. 2 out of 5 signings.

Peace out, enjoy your Sunday.

Strange how an experienced manager like him well renowned for attention to detail Is making us a joke again.

No, me neither. That's what's happened.

When Moshiri took over, I thought he was going to give the club a huge kick up the behind. I suspect that's why he recruited Koeman, the superstar to shake things up. Right idea, wrong man. Imagine Ancelotti at that point.

Since then, I think Moshiri has gone native. No shake up, just pottering along wasting money on poor management and players. I can't work him out at all. Is he happy with this? Is it all a big gamble to build the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and sell at a huge profit? Who knows

Nothing will change until the management style of the club changes. I'm in the Highands, so I don't hear any whispers, but I see 'senior' players expensively signed and regress, different styles of manager hired/fired, a DOF seemingly doing half a job and being undermined, young players not coming through, players being signed and not played.

Screams out that there's a cosy culture of acceptance through the club. Money buys players and managers, it doesn't buy the right mindset and culture.

As in life, it's all about what you do next.

If I was Moshiri, I'd bring in a ruthless person as CEO, someone who knows how to scale a multi-million pound business. Someone with the authority to make tough decisions and demand results throughout the club. That person would bin Kenwright and start changing the culture. There is something that needs badly changing all over the club.

Football-wise, I'd put Benitez in charge of everything on the pitch. I'd make it clear he's in charge until at least we get to the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock. If we have a DOF, let's define his role. If we have one, make it someone who knows the difference between a talented footballer and an effective Premier League player.

All managers get things wrong, all make mistakes with transfers. The successful ones have, or are allowed to create, a support structure around them that works. I don't think any Everton manager has had that since Moyes. It shows.

That's what I'd do next. It needs time and has to be done now, otherwise we'll have these conversations every year.

They will build the stadium, sell off the real estate for huge profit, and drop EFC like a hot turd. Blue Bill will get his cut of course, as will all the other parasites. The fans, as usual, will be left to regenerate the club.

Let's stop them first by a blanket boycott. They will act on it because the Premier League won't allow a team to play without fans for very long. Cue possible expulsion from the league, the Sky money stops, and the 20-year party ends. They will have to act on the fans' wishes because they will need us again.

It's not "Fuck Everton", it's "Fuck the current regime".

Fair to say no-one was happy with that performance. Rondon, Iwobi, Gordon, subs and defence have all been covered. So, for us poor few that stayed til the bitter end, to vent our anger out on the players and manager, for those that missed it, the chorus of boos were deafening on the final whistle. I'm not one to boo but that shower warranted it yesterday.

Anyway, leaving the ground for my bus back to town, you could hear different people as you passed them, all saying the same that you thought at the match. Why take Gordon off? How the hell does Rondon play 90 minutess every week? Iwobi...

Well, the less said the better, but I swear as I heard Iwobi's and Rondon's names mentioned over and over, I could see a lynching party, coming over the brow of Stanley Park, pitch forks and pieces of wood with rags on, ready to light up the darkening clouds hanging over Goodison.

Just like that, I was on my bus and now heading to town at a steady 5 miles an hour, taken away from the lynching mob, but now a deadly silence on the bus to town. Shellshock, tiredness or whatever the cause, people just staring, and thinking about what they had just witnessed, in a crazy last 12 minutes.

Finally get into town and meet Bill in The Crown. Poor Bill, he had a train journey to Bangor to contend with, changing at Chester. Anyway, we had a good catch up and a few to drown our sorrows. We had one for Danny and Derek and thought, jammy buggers, missing that one. All-in-all, though and being serious, you were both missed, along with Jim. However we did have a guy who invited himself to our chat, Evertonian from Manchester, decent bloke as well.

Before I go any further, apologies for not mentioning Neil C last week, when we met up at the statue. Belting bloke who could not make the pub, with driving, but took the time to have a chat to us all. I will certainly make sure I make the next ToffeeWeb meet up and see some more faces I can put to names.

Anyway, back to The Crown. Time now for Bill's train home, we say our goodbyes. My train is 15 minutes after Bill's, so I have another quick one. Now I am joined at the table by a woman closely followed by her husband, turn out to be a nice couple. She lives in the City but is an Arsenal fan, goes a few games a season as well. Fair play, I have a good old chat to them both, then head out for my train home.

I would normally finish there but need to add this last chapter. Stood up on the train, one mouthy piece of shit on the train asking the guy next to him his team, he picked a Man Utd fan and another Southampton fan. This is where every Evertonian will say some Reds are alright, some are full of shite; yes, this one was the talking bollocks shite.

The Man Utd fan was going the game on Sunday, the lad asked "Are you going to win?" to which the Man Utd fan said it could go either way. Nah, not for the Red shite "We will smash you 3 or 4 nil, Salah, best player in the world, wait for it, Ronaldo could learn a thing or two from Salah."

Anyway after more and more, I snapped, told him he was talking shite and people like him that makes other fans despise their fans, to which half the train that must have been listening in, rang out a cheer and good for you – must have been fellow Evertonians.

Anyway that was about as much as I can recall from the day out. We all get frustrated with our club, but we always come back. How can you turn your back on Everton Football Club? Everyone has to have a rant, but nearly everyone after getting it off their chest, then sit down and think about the next game. If I read someone having a right go, I think: "Get it off your chest, lad, clear your soul, no-one is judging you, say what needs to be said, do not worry what others think, say what you think."

Anyway, until our next game, or next discussions, I hope most posters are feeling a little better today. Take care, fellow Blues, up the Toffees.

The answer is still simple, we still have players who are either not good enough or do not want to wear the shirt of Everton.

Once again like yesterday when our best players are out injured we don't have the players to fill in.

As I have said on a previous post Tom Davies has not developed at all, look at Phil Foden, Declan Rice improved every season and now England Internationals.

Then you have bad recruitment, not sure who is at fault, is it Kenwright, Brands, who has the final say!

Bad recruitment as in the following:
Alex Iwobi - not improving as a player, no fight, no consistency
Fabian Delph - always injured, doesn't seem to get what playing for Everton means and doesn't care
Michael Keane - To slow, lacks confidence, no leadership
Lucas Digne - defensively to slow and lack of awareness
Soloman Rondon - should never had been given a two year contract, the laugh he did when he lost the ball was enough to suggest he is just having a last payday
Jordan Pickford - after about the third time he kicked the ball out of play, he laughs and sticks his tongue out. Say no more.

This is just scratching the surface of where it is all wrong but I'm sure sometime this week I will see happy smiling training videos.

We need a manager who must see all this and make the tough decisions needed and unfortunately it's going to take a lot of time.

Rafa might work, he might not, but my point which you responded to was that it's way too early to be making that call.

As for Townsend, you picked a team from available players, I pointed out that Townsend is a glaring omission. I might have as easily said that, if you are picking the right players for a formation, four centre-halves is not a recipe for success.

Finally I think we agree Gordon is a decent prospect and that he's certainly not embarrassed himself in the opportunities that he's already been given.

Peace out to you also.

This is incredibly frustrating, not just because of the eye watering sums that have been needlessly wasted, and the opportunities we've allowed to slip through our fingers. It's even more compounded for me by what this club used to be – we used to have a culture of improvement, success and accountability.

That legacy of success, winning, and the need to put trophies in the cabinet was in some ways our birth right as Evertonians, and it has all been frittered away by fools and spivs. It's mind-blowing.

The club needs a process. A method that takes events on and off the field and learns lessons from them, across the board. Accountability, the highest of standards, and an unwavering commitment to constant improvement. It's not difficult, especially for organizations as well resourced as a Premier League club.

Instead, I just see a mentally absent owner being bled of his money by some pretty shady football characters (Allardyce, cough) and more of the same.

I have a seat on the left hand side of Gwladys Street and could see all the space down that side, look at the first goal. Did Pickford see it? No. He continuously kicked the ball out of play on the right, has he's only got one eye. His famous distribution, along with his supposed 6 foot height, is a myth as far as I am concerned. He's a good shot stopper but never comes for a cross. With our piss-poor centre-halves we will always need a commanding keeper, which we haven't got.

I can now see why a lot of our previous managers picked so many defensive midfielders in front of the crap we have. Allan and Davies are not the solution, and I come from West Derby!

My solution is not to keep sacking managers but to sack the recruitment people who have picked costly has-beens. I would think about forgetting the Academy, our ratio of people coming through to the first team is abysmal as our managers are reluctant to play them.

Rant over, back to watching Moyes managing a competitive team...

The main problem yesterday was you really can't play Gordon, Gray and Townsend in the same team. It also explains why, when Richarlison came on, it was not to replace Rondon. Gordon obviously should have stayed on and Dobbin introduced for Rondon.

We basically played the whole game with only Davies and Allan in midfield, neither of whom were born in the land of giants. To then bring on the hapless Iwobi effectively means we are then down to 10 men. Davies is getting stick for his miskick which led to a goal but just let's look at the pass he got from Iwobi.

We all know the problems with the squad but yesterday and probably last week were down to poor selection and substitutions by the manager.
.

I'm still apologising to my brother for giving him my ticket.

My son is on his way back from Liverpool as we speak. I think his rage has evolved into anger.

My point is, where is our Ronaldo? Because we don't appear to have one.

Perhaps Dunc should have an opportunity to put a rocket up their backsides at half-time and beast them during training, and if they don't respond, get rid. Easier said than done, because they are comfortable on their fat contracts.

The same goes for Brands, he's comfortable, never openly rocks the boat, wastes millions on duds with long contracts and high wages. Get rid. What's the difference between Brands and Walsh? Nothing; between them, they've blown £500m and we are no further forward since Moshiri arrived.

All the time we have Rondon starting, we may as well accept that we may as well be playing with 10 men. King showed us what we let go yesterday, and to his credit, he didn't rub it in, but stated he was never given a chance.

Would Rafa have played him? We will never know.

Was that Brands? It cannot have been Ancelotti, so who brought him in? Who then let him go?

If it was Brands, then what did he think sitting there yesterday, looking on from the stands? Did he think "I brought him to the club and then let him go"?

Forget hindsight being a lovely thing and forget Rondon (ie, why did we have to bring him in?) – Who let King go? Who bought him in?

That is a key question; who is sourcing the players? Answer that and we may have an answer as to why we are so fucked up at the moment.

I am not laughing anymore because that monkey is still pleasuring himself, the barrel is overflowing and trickling all the way down to Bramley-Moore Dock.

The manager can do so much but, when he is up against a deep structural malaise at the club, he will encounter resistance, even organised resistance, against what he is trying to do. This is manifest in the team as lack of work and effort.

Benitez, in the coming games, like Ancelotti, will have to resort to a more defensive structure to try and counter this lack of work and effort.

If you want Everton to improve, back the manager to show you know what these cheats are at. Otherwise, expect the management merry-go-round and a continuation of these type of performances, year-in & year-out, as have been the case for years.

Kenshite (I must type that a lot as it popped us an auto fill on my phone after tyoing Ke) is in 7th Heaven now. Money in the bank, Rafa the perfect patsy to hide behind.

He's lauded by his prodigal sons like Dunc and Unsie at Finch Farm, he's able to leak negative stories to the press blaming Moshirei for everything.

He's able to meddle in transfers with him as the hero if it works out, Brands the patsy if it doesn't. His dreams have come true.

It's not that King is a superstar; they were his first goals since 2019.

It's us that are absolutely hopeless.

Delph, Iwobi and Gbamin have been unmitigated disasters, even worse than Sandro. Iwobi has a 5-year contract so we have four seasons to go. Godfrey was the shining light last season but his form this season has been awful.

Iwobi's contract runs until June 2024, so in effect 2½ years remaining, and not 4, but still 2½ years too long.

You could argue that with Mina, Doucoure, Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison for 90 minutes, we'd see a difference. That might be true, but I'll stand by all my comments above, that nothing will change till the management of the business changes.

Post of the day (in my view).

Whoever brought him in did not agree with Ancellotti and this is kind of my point. Whoever brought King in initially must have done so against the manager's wishes because it was clear that Ancellotti didn't play him because he didn't fancy him. He just reverted to playing Richarlison up front and never gave King a chance.

Going back to my question at 337, does anyone know the answer?

But as Paul @346 points out nothing will change until the hierarchy are sorted out.

Rafa's hands are tied with FFP. How did we arrive in this position? Kenwright, Walsh, Brands, simple.

With the exception of Rondon, we need to support Rafa, because no-one else would take the job. We've sacked enough managers of late, and that is not the answer.

Players aside, nothing changes upstairs!!!

What a load of utter shite. Not just our board who are the problem, parts of the fan base are too. #RafaOut #BrandsOut #BillOut #UnsworthOut

You don't seem to have peaced out. Just a hint, also you don't seemed to have grasped the concept of hashtags. They don't work on here 😂😂😂

#imgoingoutout

Players or managers, regardless it's the same hate, week-in & week-out.

So far, he's holding up... so fingers crossed.

Ancelotti obviously didn't rate King and wouldn't play him; presumably Brands brought him in. Even this shows alarming disconnect between the two. Then presumably Benitez brought in Rondon, what say did Brands have?

Ancelotti left at the start of June, Benitez joined at end of June, King signed for Watford start of July and we signed Rondon end of August. Was Brands just waiting for the new manager to name his preferred backup striker rather than commit himself? Was the deal with Benitez including Rondon as the only bargain bin option he'd play?

Must admit I've been shocked at how terrible he is. His last season at Newcastle was pretty good and I thought we could give him a chance as a backup but the time in China had not been kind to him. I don't follow Chinese football but surely Benitez of all people knew this?

It is rank bad management that we have ended up in this appalling situation. I fear for the future with these clowns in charge.

You seem to dismiss Gary's excellent point about where we are going and that we need a plan in place if we are to create a vision and a team we can all be proud of. His point about the left backs was also an excellent one.

The problem we have is that we have an ownership and a fan base who have been sold on this redundant short-termism which has been prevalent since the day Moshiri came to the club. The only metric has been the table an,d when we bring these overage and substandard footballers to our club and finish with our usual mediocrity, we are left back to square one with a new cupboard of deadwood bleeding the club dry.

You have spoken about Arteta. The guy took over a poor Arsenal squad and won the FA Cup immediately. After his honeymoon he was left with the same prima donnas Wenger and Emery had assembled and struggled badly. Since Christmas he dismissed the old guard, went with youth and their form was excellent. They have bought in a lot of young players this summer again yet are currently only on the same points than us (though they have played three of the top teams).

However, your redundant view of looking only at the table now neglects the overall picture and how the clubs are going in opposite directions. They are building something sustainable and putting in place a squad which will carry them for the next decade. Arteta since he was appointed has been trying to marry their short term aims with a squad that will take them into the future and, in trusting in youth, he accepts that they will make mistakes along the way.

Think back to the 0-0 draw before Ancelotti and Arteta took charge. Many on here were saying Arsenal's squad that day were the worst they had seen in their lifetime. Look at their progression and how it is taking shape. Then look at us. We are in the same sorry state as we were then if not worse.

They bought six players in: two 21-year -olds, two 22-year-olds and two 23-yearolds. They could have went down the tried and tested route but did so under Emery and got burnt. There is great excitement down at The Emirates because they have a project they can believe in. We don't.

None of the sad specimens, including the coach, who represent us, will feel as bad as we do. They just don't get the notion of shame.

If my favourite player, Seamus Coleman, has the brass fucking neck to come up with any mealy mouthed platitudes this week, I swear to God I will vomit with disrespect.

A pack of shameless cunts is what they are.

Not one player or anyone from the club has apologised to the fans who turned up yesterday.

I have posted on another thread my respect for Seamus, but this is a time for deeds, not words we have all heard before.

Albeit that they would all be gone, but we are stuck with the wankers and, just as we have done for years, we shall have to put up with them and just hope for better times.

Amen (nothing will ever change!)

We could do worse than sign him on a free and play him in place of Rondon!

Sorry l missed your message amd saw it late. I was just talking tongue-in-cheek. Please feel free to call me what you will. It's that live forum, it does that to us all.

They just continue to take us for a ride, no amount of humiliation or awful performances bothers those in power.

I really feel for our supporters, I feel the pain you all felt after yesterday. I also feel for Moshiri, he has put the money in, but those at board level are taking the piss, still pulling the strings, still having a say of our 20+ years of stagnation, at our club.

Each year gets worse, if the kids in the cup derby knocking us out was not bad enough, yesterday drew an even bigger embarrassment, yet not one at the club has took it to say sorry to the fans.

I swear to god, if I get an email off Denise tomorrow, about the stadium, or I see Bills fat fucking grin pop up anywhere, it could just be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Apologies to fellow posters, but I needed to let that out.

After the Mancs match today, all you can see from the pundits is how Ole is lacking the blueprint and methodology that Klopp has spent years instilling in his players. They don't have a real identity and, even with some of the best players in the world, if you don't have that identity you lose.

Pep and Man City have an identity (which Arteta is trying to replicate). Liverpool have a lung-busting pressing mentality. Tuchel has given Chelsea an identity. This is why these clubs are doing so well. Dortmond, RB Leipzig, Lille, etc have identities.

Unfortunately, our current identity matches your unbelievably astute paragraph:

“The problem we have is that we have an ownership and a fanbase who have been sold on this redundant short-termism which has been prevalent since the day Moshiri came to the club”.

This is our problem in a nutshell! This is our identity… ”punch above our weight, aim for the Europa League maybe as a bonus”. It hasn't changed since Moyes. The only thing that did was how much we'd pay in fees, and the lack of diligence made on characters given the extra dough that could now be wasted.

We came close to changing it with Martinez only (and maybe Silva). He wanted to play football, and he wanted a young team of possible stars backed by warrior generals like Barry and McCarthy. He wanted us to play the same way as Pep and Arteta want their teams to.

Unfortunately, though, he was too stubborn and neglectful of defending set-pieces too… just like Rafa. Rafa's style is defensive. It is to cede possession and rely on “pros” to KITAP1 to win. It's why he was run out of every club other than Newcastle. In fairness, he's tried to add counter-attacking to us as he knows where poor football leads here.

He's not the identity I want. I want Moshiri to state he wants to win the league in our first year in the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock, and intends to recruit the best young players in the world to make that happen, even if it takes 3 years and requires selling the established (like Digne) to do it. Send a message out to the next Stones, Lukaku, Deulofeu that they'll get their shot here!

I thought this is what Brands should have been. Whatever has stopped it needs to be removed; if it's him, then so be it.

I don't believe that identity is Rafa's identity. He's too long in the tooth. If Moshiri folds and gives him more power, we're back to the “redundant short-termism” you highlight as the problem. Loads of treading water, and a regular 5-2 head dunk.

Blame game starts again

United need a new manager

There was a time when the Echo would be as demanding of people working for Everton FC as the fans are... but, like so many involved with Everton FC, there is too cosy a relationship between the local sports journalists and the club.

I think the manager has pride enough to care but do the players? Not enough to win many 50-50s and arial battles yesterday. We need some steel and leadership in the team but I can't think we have had much since Timmy and his crew left.

The Echo is a joke. They have 18-year-old kids writing clickbait like "Five things we spotted about DCL haircut."

Prenno is alright but barely writes anything and he is too cosy with Bill. Meanwhile, his former colleague Greg O'Keeffe writes a succession of articles for The Athletic that always put Kenwright in a good light and always quote "a source close to Bill," who is no doubt Bill himself.

Last week, "the source close to Bill," was taking credit for not just signing but even scouting Godfrey, as opposed to the previous thought that it was Brands. I wonder if Bill, I mean "the source close to Bill" will post a retraction after yesterday?

His ego would deflect the blast.

Ian, so if it all goes pear-shaped, we know who to blame!

Brian Wilkinson; we will never turn our backs. We can't. I wouldn't even know how to! Better out than in or you'll turn into a dormant volcano with built up pressure inside. And when they blow, it's spectacular. See you at the next one!

I'll respond to Gary on Conor's comment. I wasn't being dismissive at all, Gary. I was simply not agreeing with the point of changing manager or throwing the kids (our kids) in as being the solution right now.

@Conor, I'll pick that come back apart, but no problems with your views or your support of Gary's well articulated opinion, even though I don't agree with some of it – and no criticism of it by the way.

I couldn't agree more that a vision & plan is needed. I've mentioned this before (not here), but there are 2 strands. There is a tactical here & now. Do something short term to get us on the footballing map. We've thrown a ridiculous amount of money at that, tried several managers and flopped spectacularly. I don't think staying on the managerial merry-go-round is the solution.

Then there's the strategic vision. We kind of do have that. From what I've been reading, Brands is restructuring the Academy. Bringing the U18s and U23s closer together. Getting the coaches to rotate between the 2, so hopefully installing a system from top to bottom that makes the transition between levels smoother and easier for the young players. I'd still say we seem to have either an issue with initial feeding of the academy (scouting) or the coaching, but that's a view from afar.

You use Arsenal as an example. They are still benefiting from the system that Wenger spent many years constructing. That sort of project and overhaul takes time. I'm not convinced our academy is as well functioning in supporting the senior team. Right now.

So, the here and now has been a quick win opportunity missed. But I would say we do have a longer-term plan and vision. To Paul Tran's point though, in order to execute and deliver successfully on a strategic vision and plan, you need the right people surrounding the owner, and that is not me looking at the manager and players.

Please, Mr Moshiri, take ownership and put your own people in place. The type of people you've surrounded yourself with to make you the Billionaire you are.

In terms of identify, what better identify to build than retaining our heritage but now presenting ourselves to the world from a magnificent stadium on the Mersey with the Royal Blue Liver Birds watching over from the distance? Our club, our city.

Not sure why you picked up on my view of looking at the table now as being "redundant". It was a snap shot comparison. We had a good start but have stuttered. Arsenal had a dreadful start and have improved. We're on a par.

I also did actually say what I always say every season since I can remember. Let's see where the table is at Christmas as that gives you a better feel for where you are. I think it might be others looking at the table now. And the season ends in May. Another of my oft coined phrases.

Punching above our weight & Europa League qualification being our identify? Who said that? I would never use punching above our weight as that's "plucky little Everton" speak. But I would say European qualification should be our realistic target. For now. As an 80s teenager who witnessed Everton win 2 titles and our only European trophy, my expectations are much higher. I won't call them out as I'll get laughed out of town. Or sanctioned.

Back to my tactical versus strategic targets. That's realistic for now. Even Chelsea and Man City took the stepping stone approach to finishing in the European qualification places (not Champions League). It was part of that journey before they reached the promised land.

No dismissiveness on my part meant. Just disagreement. That's allowed, right, when you don't agree?

The silence from on high is deafening.

Moshiri is and has been made to look a mug by the likes of Kenwright and his band of chums.

A statement from Moshiri doesn't have to be in the form of words, but actions.

Give Rafa his head to recruit his own team, not those he inherited!

Brands is a Kenwright puppet, who allows himself to be manipulated by the merry go round of managers bringing in ‘their' players, which I don't have a problem with by the way, but isn't that supposed to be Brands's job.

Until Kenwright steps down, nothing will change. Somehow, and I don't know how, Kenwright has hoodwinked Moshiri by manipulating him into agreeing his continued role in the hierarchy of this once-great club.

We are better than our current mid-table status but, to improve our status, Moshiri needs to wield the axe in the boardroom.

A cleansing at Finch Farm should follow a cleansing in the boardroom.

Rant over. COYB

Just a little extra to add to our game, the media are at it again, stirring it up saying Everton fans turning on Rafa the last couple of games.

I will agree the boos were justified with Gordon going off, however at the end of the match, and the West Ham one as well, for me my frustration was with the players performances, more than Rafa.

What is happening now is Groundhog Day, new Manager comes in, old players graft for a few games, then get found out how shite they are and go back into their shells again.

Managers come and go quickly at our club, while the players responsible remain, along with those at the top, and those enjoying their happy retirement at Finch Farm.

Until Moshiri grows a pair and starts wielding the axe, it will continue, well into the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

These same players who have cleared out numerous managers will do the same with Rafa if we do not give him time to rebuild and get some of the shite out of the club.

Rafa himself needs to also take a strong stance, and stop picking Rondon and Iwobi, put Richarlison or one of the kids in attack, and play Gordon in the Richarlison role, on the left.

Poorly spent money; manager & player revolving door; a resulting financial squeeze on a thin squad; injuries; focus on a new stadium

On the evidence, I'll take Kenwright, Elstone & Moyes ahead of Moshiri, Barrett-Baxendale, Brands and [place any manager's name here].

I'm no fan of Moyes after the way he connived with Man Utd at the end, but I have to sadly agree with you on those two trios.

We're closer to relegation within the next five years than we are breaking into the Top 4 or Top 6. I'm not saying we'll be relegated, just that if you had to place the odds of one or the other happening, it would have to be the former.

You're in that Kenwright fog, thinking it's a simple choice between two options: him versus the Mosh crew. How about neither? How about the Man City owners that BK pushed off? Or how about the fact that your comparison is false anyway as the reality is we've had the BK/Elstone show followed by the BK/Brands/Mosh show.

Kenwright, by his own declaration, is involved in transfers, even scouting (Godfrey), plus there's no way in hell that Moshiri or Brands sought out Jeffers and Baxter as coaches. I doubt they even knew who they were.

Also, we have Keith Southern, Tom Kearney and Scott Phelan as coaches. All of whom came through the same Everton youth set-up at the same time, all failed to make the grade and ended up in the Conference.

Now there's nothing to say you have to be a good player to be a good coach, but they all retired and then with no prior coaching experience got jobs as coaches at Everton. So poor players, with no coaching resume but we expect them to bring expertise to our kids?

There's also the Under-16s, they lost a final on Saturday. Their coach according to the official website: Phil Jevons. Another in the mold of the aforementioned only he doesn't even work at Everton any more. He is at Sunderland, but the website team have such disdain for the academy that no one has even noticed that he left the club.

Kenwright scouted Godfrey? Love to see some evidence of that!!

I couldn't agree more, excellent post.

I'd have stuck with Marco Silva myself, at least he had us trying to play on the front foot and we seen some really good performances in his first season. He had his best player sold on him and replaced by a guy who can't get fit. We never signed Zouma, who was excellent yesterday.

If only he had abandoned the zonal marking, he might still be here... and now Benitez is playing zonal marking with the same brain-dead players.

Saturday was one of the most embarrassing, gutless, mistake-ridden matches I've watched in 40-plus years watching Everton.

I respectfully disagree with most of that, especially the line that Arsenal are still benefiting from Wenger's youth system, as it didn't help Wenger at the end of his reign, or Emery. The difference between our approach (as well as Emery's) and Arteta's is that he is brave enough to put them in ahead of seasoned internationals and keep them there.

Take Emile Smith-Rowe and compare him with Anthony Gordon. Arteta put him in last Christmas when they were struggling and has continued to give him his head even when his form has been up and down.

Anthony made his breakthrough one year previous during an injury crisis under Ancelotti, performed well but was swiftly out of the team. Benitez has now continued that trend and underperforming players have been preferred during the latest injury crisis, despite him doing well when getting his chance.

Had John Stones emerged under Koeman, Allardyce, Silva, Ancelotti or Benitez, I doubt he would have had much of a look-in because he would have 'always had a mistake in him' and we can't afford that if we want to meet "our target" of Europa League.

The redundant short-termism remark wasn't a pop at you specifically (my phrasing isn't meant as inflammatory to individuals), it is a general way of thinking that has permeated throughout Moshiri's reign, IMO, and each year the new manager seems solely responsible for delivering "our target".

This sole focus on a 'table watching' approach as the only barometer was never more apparent among the fan base as last season when one poster gave a weekly update until November, telling us where we were and how many points off the top, so all was therefore rosy in the Goodison garden, that is until as usual the shit hits the fan.

Even during the season where we matched "our target" under Koeman, we were still as far back to square one than ever before the following year. Benitez ain't talking about development or evolution, his remit as he sees it is to find that 5 to 10% extra.

In terms of Arsenal, I will predict that the experts on TV will continue to herald Arteta as 'the next Arsene Wenger' when Arsenal's form is good and 'he's worse than Emery' when they are bad (his youthful team will continue to fluctuate), but in 2-3 seasons they will be the team that breaks the top four stranglehold and only then will the 'table watchers' have wakened up to the process and journey that will have put them there.

At least you didn't sit on the fence, like Andy @358.

Apparently Kenwright himself claimed that but we also know he met Elvis and rode his bike to every home game – and that claim was made when Godfrey was doing well. I doubt he would say it this season.

We clearly cannot find the correct central defensive pairing and are susceptible to losing numerous set-piece goals. But this talented young player, very capable both in the air and with the ball at his feet, isn't even considered as substitute?

We are architects of our own downfall by continually selecting out-of-form players and making hollow excuses for them. Digne and Godfrey have been playing well below their own standards for some time. Similarly Allan has to be accountable for substandard performances. These three players should not be above being dropped.

We are all aware of the main culprits, their identities have been well documented on here. But no player should be above the chop where it is warranted.

League table watching, like I say, I take little notice until Christmas and even then it can still be too early. We should know that more than most. Kendall in 1983 and many of the Moyes years.

Okay, on Arteta, I just hope he get's the 2 or 3 years you call and the Arsenal board don't buckle when he goes through the rollercoaster ride I think he will.

Man Utd, to be fair, stuck by Solskjaer under similar circumstances you mention. When winning, the son of Ferguson; when losing, the next Ron Atkinson. I fear for Ole though, yesterday and recent performances was a pill too bitter to swallow.

Smith-Rowe looks a good player. He done well Friday against Villa, a match I watched with the Villa-supporting wife. Scrappy encounter between two evenly matched teams. If Villa hadn't got their tactics so badly wrong and handed it to Arsenal by half-time, that had a draw written all over it. But it's all about taking your chances.