When is Enough, Enough?

Unfortunately most of us are just accepting it (myself included, I give my tickets away now as my blood pressure can't take it) which means Moshiri and Benitez think there is no issue.

We will stay up by the skin of our teeth probably because of those first four games and nothing else.

How much longer though you wonder can this yearly mediocrity carry on at Everton before you are right, Paul: "Enough is enough"?

Nothing ever changes at Everton: same shit different season – regardless of the manager or players – it's just the same lack of dynamism, same lack of hunger amongst the players, and the same lack of cohesive ideas.

I'm sick of being jealous of teams like Leicester, Wolves… even Brighton now have left us behind as a progressive attractive football side while the likes of West Ham under David Moyes have completely changed their ambitions into something we can now only dream of.

Nothing ever brings any surprises at this club, however, and it's the same failed season annually now with absolutely turgid football to watch.

You wouldn't mind the football being dross if it meant we actually kept clean sheets and won games now and then.

The BBC have got the Hull game on Saturday because they expect a shock; frankly, I think right now it would be more of a shock if Everton actually turn up and win!

I don't think any Evertonian believed the line-up with five at the back and Coleman on the left. It was a big mistake by Benitez.

The defence once again showed up its frailty and disfunction. Keane and Holgate can't play together, and for me, Holgate can go; even though he recovered with a great tackle, he doesn't read the game well.

There was some bluster from midfield in the second half and Gordon gave his all. Gray should've been central or on the right.

With the signings of two new full-backs, it should give us better balance and, on this basis, I would stick with Benitez, with Richarlison returning soon. Changing managers now could make a dire situation worse.

I am sure that we will improve in the next few weeks to fend off relegation and yet again rebuild and hopefully offload some dross.

The starting lineup was a disgrace. 5-4-1 at home against Brighton?? Even if you dress it up as 5-2-3, it's still way too negative, leaving us desperately short in midfield.

Allan and Doucoure have proved to be a decent partnership in the past in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. In the formation against Brighton, they were completely overrun. It was Mission Impossible.

To make no changes at half-time was also a disgrace. What had Rafa seen in that first half that the rest of us hadn't seen? Was his plan working well? Were we unlucky to be losing? Obviously, we all know the answer.

To have not started or introduced Lucas Digne was another disgrace. We are hardly awash with quality left-sided players. Get him on the pitch. If the fall-out with him is so bad, he should be nowhere near the first team. But if you are going to name him in the 18, you must be prepared to use him. What a waste having him sitting there.

Another disgrace is continuing with Rondon. He's not up to it. Why persist in playing him, instead of the young lads who did so well away at Chelsea?

Rafa needs to go. Our recruitment off the pitch is not his fault. The squad we have been left with is another disgrace considering what we have spent. But what happens on the pitch is – that is now 1 win in 12, 6 points out of 36. Out of the League Cup, and probably out of the FA Cup in the next round or two. Just get rid of him.

Let's face it, we are bottom of the form league for the last 12 games. We could appoint Mr Bean and we couldn't be any worse off.

The problem is that changing the manager will make little difference to the performance of most of the players in this squad.

The manager in the post-match interview said that in training the squad was prepared for the system of play and defending set-pieces, particularly the type of corner that resulted in the goal.

On the pitch, they did not play as instructed. So much for the work and effort put in by most players over an extended break. Which again is no surprise, given that enough is enough regarding performances after an extended break has been enough for years also.

Benitez spent approx £100, 000 in the Summer, not near enough, when most of the squad needs to be replaced and still does this over the winter transfer window. The necessary changes in backroom staff and structure have barely begun. As for the management of the club???

So a change of manager will make no difference. Any manager worth his salt after Ancelotti and Benitez will smell a rat.

Happy New Year, Evertonians. Against Hull, it will depend on what Everton turns up.

Actually, the more most of the squad is embarrassed, the better. I would not hold my breath for Digne being transferred to Chelsea or Inter Milan.

I agree; regardless of how much they frustrate, anger and disappoint, it never takes away the enjoyment of the occasion.

When I saw the team I was fully expecting Seamus to play on the right of a back 3 with Godfrey at left-back. I was actually looking forward to seeing his surging runs up the flank, as he's been playing quite well at left-back recently.

I couldn't believe it when I saw Coleman in that position. Simply bizarre from Rafa. But the main thing I took from the game was just how long Seamus takes to make a decision... holding onto the ball for far too long and stifling the attack.

We all know Seamus has been a brilliant player for us and that he's well past his best, but when you watch him up close you can see just how far he's fallen.

The two in midfield were completely overrun. Gomes should have been introduced much, much sooner. And refusing to play Dobbin was also very odd.

Just a disaster of a day from the players and, especially, the manager. Hopefully this be our Rock Bottom moment and we'll pick up with our new signings in the team.

Although, we seem to say that very often.

They believe that their efforts to get to the stadium, spending substantial time and money, is wasted as every game seems to have the same pattern: slow start, go behind, rally a little, sometimes recovering to win but mostly not.

Those I spoke to are of an age where they have seen the best of Everton, but I was troubled when I watched ToffeeTV and one of the presenters, who is a good 20 years younger than my mates, also said that friends of his, now see watching Everton as a chore. That is a terrible indictment of the current regime and squad, even in the darkest days of the '70s and '90s it never seemed to be a chore to watch Everton.

This disenchantment can't be laid completely at the current manager's door; it is the fault of all of those who make decisions at Everton Football Club. Many say that it is the 'hope that kills you' but I would argue that it is the lack of hope that will put off more and more people from attending games. It might start as a trickle but, if those in charge at Everton continue to ignore the zeitgeist, that trickle, may turn into a flood.

I know there are fans like Rob and Danny who would do anything to get into a stadium to watch their beloved Everton, and they should be applauded for their optimism and dedication, however, whilst I can't speak for those friends of the ToffeeTV presenter, my mates are no less committed to all things Everton, than any other fans.

To hear them contemplating watching Everton in the comfort of their own home or in a local hostelry, truly shocked me, it's not because of the money they spend or even the journies they make to get to the ground that has them thinking this way, but rather the hopelessness that has surrounded the club for some time that is the main driver of their thoughts.

Palace
Wolves
Brentford
Brighton
West Ham
Watford

None of the above (with the possible exception of West Ham) are in the running for a top 4 / 6 spot. One, Watford, are in a relegation battle, the others are all mid-table material and (with the possible exception of Brentford) are better than us, ie, the they are comfortable on the ball and can play joined-up football, the ability to pass the ball to a player wearing the same shirt is not beyond them.

I suppose the one plus from this whole mess is that we did not end up with Nuno, the second choice for the job back in the summer.

The current manager will probably see out the balance of the season and hopefully the new signings made during this window will improve things and push us closer to the top half.

Ken Buckley claimed that, half-way through the season, one could determine where we would finish, plus or minus one or two places from the position we found ourselves at that time, on that basis we will not finish in the top 10.

Thankfully, the teams occupying the bottom positions don't look as if they will get much more than 30 points this season, so we should be safe.

He's not playing Digne because he doesn't want him injured when so many clubs are looking for an internationally-proven left-back. If Digne doesn't get sold, the financial house of cards under FFP or whatever falls over.

However, and despite the injuries, you'd expect a manager of his experience to be doing better – mid-table at least, with a view towards pushing for the Top 6 in the second half of the season.

A past-it right-back at left-back tells me our manager is also past it.

Wolves did their research in obtaining their managers, Southampton often do (Pochettino). Why can't Everton be professional for once and not just go for an obvious name?

His other mistake is one he repeats. Two in midfield. The guy keeps making the same errors, he also keeps leaving his subs too late, and fails to utilise Dobbin, who is a far better foil for Calvert-Lewin than the hapless Rondon.

The zonal defending is appalling.

He needs to be sacked as, even in a best-case scenario, if we avoid the drop, we will have to endure next season watching this anti-football.

Could be an odd close season this year though with players preparing for the World Cup rather than playing in it so maybe January will be a more important window next year.

Never.

I know that is naive of me and your account of the views of those disenchanted young Evertonians upsets me, Barry.

I still have my letter of complaint & telling off from Wolverhampton Wanderers from earlier this season after masquerading as a home fan and getting properly found out.

Personally I do think we are in a relegation fight. The start of the season flattered us but the past 12 games or so tell their own story. Nearly a third of a season isn't a blip.

The players coming to the end of their contracts will bring in no transfer money, only reduce the wage bill, and that's if they chose to move in January. Also, the new players coming in will be on very good salaries so, even if those at the end of their contracts do move on, it won't make a huge difference to our FFP position.

I think the FFP position was what made Ancelotti walk away and why we weren't able to attract a more suitable appointment than Benitez. I think that our FFP position would deter many from coming here, hence why Moshiri (and Usmanov?) will hope that things don't get any worse where they will be forced to make a managerial change.

I think Moshiri (and Usmanov?) believed that Benitez would be hopefully a safe pair of hands to keep the club in the Premier League till the stadium was built, and I still believe that's why they will give Benitez at least another 4/5 games to turn things around. Because if it goes wrong and we drop even further then how many would want to take the job with the transfer window closed.

I argued for us to make Christophe Galtier our manager before they appointed Benitez but that ship has sailed, and Spurs had the money and the hindsight to replace Nuno Espiritu Santo with a world class manager like Conte.

I'm not for one minute suggesting Mr. Benitez will be bringing that success but just saying, in a long post, that fans staying away because of boring as well as losing football is nothing new to Goodison Park.

Wolves and (maybe more in the past) Southampton have been very professional, well organised and strategic.

We seem to operate like we did at the start of the Premier League era having not noticed the commercial side of the game has moved on light years. Frankly it's astonishing we aren't sat alongside Sheffield Wednesday and Notts Forest in the wilderness.

Personally I credit Kenwright for playing his part, along with Moyes, in helping to avert relegation and obscurity for many years despite being penniless.

However, I firmly believe he is now holding us back with long outdated culture that permeates the club.

There's a lot to do behind the scenes before sacking and hiring a new manager will make a meaningful difference. Otherwise we're just lurching from one expensive fall guy to another without sorting out the real problem.

Hopefully, this January window bears a bit more fruit, someone breaks rank and stands on the back post at corners and Dobbin gets enough minutes to persuade him to stay.

I'm not one either who wants to change manager every now and then, but if it isn't working you simply have to pull the trigger and try someone new. We have had loads of patience and he has really gotten a chance, but I can't see any signs of improvement on the pitch, rather the opposite. If I saw improvement it would have been another story, but it's getting worse...

FSW OUT NOW!!

Like you I was at that Coventry game, I also think there was a league game when Bingham was in charge were we had a similar low crowd. I think what definitely changed things for Howard was appointing Colin Harvey as his assistant from then on things dramatically improved. I think it showed Colin was a fabulous coach and Howard became a great manager, just a pity that Hysel brought an end to that partnership. I don't think Benitez would ever appoint someone like Colin as he would never have anybody suggest we do something different to his mantra, were Howard allowed Colin to bring his ideas to the first team.

When you think of all the ex players we have employed it beggars belief that at no stage over the last 30 years did nobody think what a good idea it might have been if Colin had been brought back to oversee the whole academy operation or more latterly Peter Reid, both men had won the top trophies were most of our academy coaches have won nothing.

But does it make sense to look to a man who might instill an ethic.
One that the Peoples Club fan base might relate to.

Graft, honesty, reality organisation from top to bottom in a club.

We might not be shooting for the stars immediately, but could we do a Leicester City??
They are way ahead of us, given the past 5/6years.

Lets become a decent, solid football team, a team who can get results against top sides, whilst not looking over our shoulders at relegation.
It ain't going to be pretty to watch if we are in dog fight at the bottom.
We the faithful are not going to like watch, we are going to have to do to scrape enough points to stay up.Well if Benitez loses 4more out the 6 next games.
They all sides below or around us.

So for me GET Sean Dyche in.
He can fight relegation.

Rafa did and failed to stay up.

That question should be put to him.

What ever anyone thinks, we lose 4 of next 6 Rafa will have to go.

Would Shaun Dyche come.??

Bring a work ethic of hard graft,honesty,reality which most of the Everton Fan base would relate to.Not £200k a week salaries, no performace, or playing.

The club needs an overhaul top to bottom.
The flash foreign managers of millions aint worked.

Dyche has a track record of beating us with little resources.

He surely wants the chance to compete over 38games, with a top squad.

I want stability, consistency.Of course exiting football.But I will take the title of You don't want to go.to Goodison or BMD first.The Yellow Wall of Dortmond.
So Dyche I would take.He has the nerve and balls know how to keep us up.

Solid honesty, graft.

The team have sadly become gung ho, and play like a Sunday morning ale house team.

From the efforts off a gritty performance at Chelsea, to loose in the way the team played v Brighton, will be another one on the notch of 100s of days of Infamy endured watching Everton the best part of the last 30 years.

The manager must realise now that his dysfunctional team selections, and were players are defeated before they get on the Park is not acceptable.

Hull and Leicester, massive games, will Everton be up for them? What will Rafa do?

Sadly hand on heart, the acceptance of mediocrity and piss poor attitudes at board level and first team management including this manager and his predecessors, bear testimony to the demise of EFC as a football power.

But it's a funny old game but it's gonna take some character to beat Hull, based on current form.

Hope eternal.

Some may scoff at that, but football is nothing if it loses such emotions. The guy in charge now has done nothing to endear himself to us, in fact his modus operandi seems to be to alienate as many people as possible. Who did he think he was kidding when he expressed bemusement at the booing when he introduced Rondon on Sunday? It wasn't the hapless player who was the subject of the crowd's ire, it was the perverse decision by the manager.

I hope that they do and give it to Ferguson so that the dewy-eyed claptrap can finally be put to bed. Trouble is - it would probably mean a relegation.

United are five years behind Everton on the same tranjectory. They also are top heavy with a has been backroom and club management dictating the Club Culture.

When Ronaldo is retired in five years time, they will have a Rondon. Is Rojo still there?Please God keep Bill away from them during the transfer window

In all honesty we just don't get on. Full fucking stop.

No one like's that fat twat and for me his heart will always be with the red lot. Talk of Sundays game seems pointless, I mean how can anyone justify Coleman at LB and the continuation of playing Rondon?

There is obviously an agenda being played out by our manager, whether its against the board or a statement to Moshiri, but either way he is not concerned about Everton Football Club.

This great club deserves far, far better than RB.

Where's this tactical genius we were promised? Where was the planning for this game? An 8 year old could've set that team up better than he did.

I'm not asking for his head as I don't think anyone could turn this pile of shite around in the near term. The club is rotten from top to bottom he's just the turd on top of the heap.

You don't necessarily have to be street smart to become a billionaire, you only have to have a pile of cash and bet on the markets successfully to make your pile even bigger, oh and it helps if you have a friend such as Usmanov to help you out now and again.

"Would Shaun Dyche come.??"

I would have been happy to consider him up until now, that is until he started taking an interest in Mason Holgate?

It might be just pure rumour i've seen on the net or his DOF.

Peter (32) Howard Kendall was a great footballer for me, could talk about him all day long, to be honest I wouldn't have shed any tears if he'd been shown the door at that time, he'd wasted a lot of money on his initial seven signings with only two success's out of them, both goalkeepers.

Howard was given the nod to carry on by Phillip Carter and gave us all our pride back, Hysel, as Brian says @(24) maybe took all the steam out of Everton and maybe caused Kendall to go to Spain but whatever Howard had achieved before he was never able to reproduce it anywhere else and we all know what had a big influence in the rest of his managerial career.

These are the saddest days we have ever seen for many of us Evertoniansand I understand the way many feel about Benitez, but what has gone before in the last few years have produced the flimsy squad we've got now, slowly starting to change, hopefully the better, I'm still prepared for Mr. Benitez to carry on and turn this hopeless case of a club around and move upwards but I definitely understand the despair of all our fans at the moment and the dark moods it puts us in.

I see Rafa trying to change the culture where these same players have been responsible for dismal performances for the last half-dozen managers we've had. If Digne has problems and acts like he doesn't want to be here - bye bye. Look what Tuchel did with Lukaku. When we had Lukaku every time he went on international break he told some non-UK press how he wanted to leave to play Champions League. Recently Lukaku expressed how he wanted to leave for Italy at some point and Tuchel said not on my watch and sat him down. Commentators and many fans said they need Lukaku against Liverpool and Tuchel stood strong. You either are committed to the club under Tuchel or you don't play - no matter who you are. We have need that for years.

I worked in an industry that is extremely competitive. At the end of the year there are winners and losers for everyone in the industry and the public at large to see. As you get older you do not lose your competitive desire, other things like stamina yes, but never the desire. Rafa has not lost the desire, nor anything else I can see. He will not put up with whingers and slackers. He never has.

He is trying to instill the values of hard work for the club. He knows this club and fans. One of the first things he said when he was hired was that Everton fans wanted see players putting in a hard shift for the club and even many people here said he understood the fans.

Everton is a mess and has been for many years. Too many good managers have come through here and failed miserably. This club has about six players who are PL average or better. Why does anyone think this club should be better than eighth or ninth even with DCL and without all the other injuries we've had? Maybe two or three of our players make the bench at a top six club - none for sure at a top four.

We were playing entertaining football before DCL got hurt and all the other injuries. Last year it was the same under Ancelotti before all the injuries hit. That's because we don't have the players and I blame the board and owner for this mess and their awful recruiting and buying.

Rafa is not just managing players, he's trying to make big changes and that is what we need. I am willing to give him time.

Lukaku has apparently been re-admitted to the Chelsea squad for their clash with Spurs, Digne doesn't appear to have a chance of ever playing for Everton again, even if he's not sold or loaned out.

What happens if the injury crisis doesn't abate in the second half of the season, will Benitez alter his style to suit? I want Benitez to succeed because I want Everton to succeed, I neither love nor dislike the man, if he manages to turn things around and soon, then fair enough, if he doesn't well he loses his job and is replaced by somebody else.

Dave, sometimes my son and youngest brother look at me in a perplexed way when I tell them I've seen worse days watching Everton!! You're right about that first wave of Kendall signings!

I suppose the issue now is that we've all waited too long to see us win something. Both the "lost" younger generation and the older ones. I think that's where the frustration is coming from as we've watched lesser clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City rise to the top of English and even European football.

But, there have been worse managers and worse Everton teams in my lifetime.

Rafa has tried to adjust Barry. We did not play five at the back at the beginning of the year. He has changed players all time and formation several times due to injuries and Covid. Gordon now seems to a real part of the first team.

This club needs to be grabbed by the scruff of the neck. It needs a complete clear-out. In order to build a winning culture everything must be torn down and re-built. It seems to me Rafa is trying to what he can even though this is all really the responsibility of the owner. That is why Man City, Chelsea and even Tottenham have left this club eating their dust.

As the manager responsible for the performance of the first team squad:

a) What has he changed?
b) Why has he changed it?
c) What success has he achieved?

And I mean evidence, not opinion.

Benitez's only role is to manage the first team squad. if he is implementing a culture change, the outcome should be evident in results and performance.

Last season, we had 33 points after 18 games compared to 19 points this season. We were 7th in the table compared to 15th today.

What has changed? Medical staff, DoF gone and a much more targeted and decisive transfer window so far only 4 days in. I'm suspecting he's been central to that.

Why? Well 30 years of underachievement and failure by my Everton standards. And in a twisted way, it probably needs / needed a non-Evertonian to come in and disrupt the comfortable status quo that has existed.

Success? Well, that's difficult to measure in 6 months in and half way through a first season. The season ends in May, we'll know more then. Hopefully it will be an arse about-face season in comparison to last season's. What he may be trying to implement may not see success for a year or two. If ever as there are never guarantees.

I can only have an opinion, I'm afraid, as, like many here, I don't have evidence or insider knowledge, just a view on what I read and see.

Danny – who didn't want Benitez, by the way... and still can't use the first name.

How daft can you be? You can't change a team culture overnight, especially when it and the ownership have accepted mediocre effort and results for decades.

It is a process. You have to instill discipline and accountability. You have to get rid of the deadwood and malcontents and replace them with people with more talent who work harder and smarter. The person trying to make these changes needs to be backed or mediocrity wins.

Why aren't our results better? Maybe a large part of the reason is we have missed one of the best goalscorers in the Premier League for almost the entire season.

Perhaps it's also because we missed our other best players like Richarlison and Doucouré and many others at the same time. We cannot succeed with this many absences. This is an average team with its fair share of average players.

I don't care who our manager was employed by previously because I believe he wants to win. If Benitez is really trying do what I think he is, it is going to need time.

Also, there are at least three teams below us who will not pass us.

This isn't the manager's fault this is a result of no ambition over years culminating in another dreadful squad (we've had a few) exposed by an injury crisis like no other. It was just a matter of time.

I cannot remember the last time I was actually excited before a game and didn't view it as a chore.

If we play Liverpool, Man City etc, it's always like "Hope it's not a cricket score" if it's a crap team, eg, Sheffield Utd at home, it's a banana skin.

The cup games are always "Oh God, we are away to a top six team again" or "Oh God, we are away to a Championship team, à la Millwall, who will upset us."

It is a chore... like going to a funeral for the same relative 40 times a year, year after year.

Benitez is going to need time, as you say, along with help and trust off the people he is working with. That's why he is trying to change the culture of the club, because he is still trying to find out who he can trust and who he can't trust. It's only 5 or 6 months but I hope he turns that into 5 or 5 years. If he does, the culture will change for the good of the club.

Once upon a time, I was right behind us bringing in Mike Walker. Tongue in cheek, He had a sticky start but was going to run the club his way.

He was an outsider who could spot what was required. We just didn't give him time to establish the dynasty that he promised… I suppose we will never know!

Currently, I have never known such a low atmosphere going to the game but Benitez is promising that he will only bring players in that want to play for us, so that's good enough for some of us, whatever that means.

Leaving Digne on the bench against Brighton was an absolute masterstroke and show of power, regardless of the result, but people on here still want him!

Watching us getting battered at home and away, regardless of opposition, seems also to be good enough for some on here – 6 out of 36 is okay for some!

Reminds me a little of the scene in Titanic when the band played on. At some point, he will get fired. I just hope that it's mathematically possible for us to stay in the Premier League – if not this season, then next.

I believe he was appointed to keep us in the Premier League until the stadium is built; no more, no less. I just can't get used to eating shit sandwiches every week and fellow Blues saying that they enjoy them!

Is that honestly the best you can do to provide evidence of the culture change you claimed that Benitez is undertaking? Not even ONE example of improvement?

You are an evidence free zone my friend. Keep blowing out the mindless platitudes.

I entirely grasp why others think the opposite. We will find out. I agree with those who consider that the next few games - and, possibly, only the Hull game - will be decisive.

But can we park this 'he is changing the culture' nonsense, as there is zero evidence of that. And as someone who is responsible for leading major culture change projects in my job, it is frankly beginning to annoy me.

The barriers to culture change are lack of trust, openness, team work, 'can-do attitude' and focus on the customer (i.e. the fans). If Benitez wants to convince myself and others that he is the right man, then start with them as they will result in improved performances and results.

And it will be performances and results that decide his fate in the next 6-8 weeks, no matter what any of us say on here.

Now to the meat of what you are asking. Benitez changed the medical staff. How many players have we had who almost immediately re-injured whatever they were supposed to be back from?

He sat Digne, a player who didn't want to play, and now is being replaced. A decision of which I agree because - accountability ( see Tuchel sitting Lukaku analogy discussed above). These are good moves.

I also gave you my reasons why changing culture takes time and improvement may not be immediate. I also argued that losing DCL, Richie. Doucoure, Alan and others for so long makes it incredibly hard to to have any semblance of a good record.

All this is to say the immediate improvements you desire may not be very realistic in the first six months of the manager's tenure.

I am not settling. I am arguing for the biggest changes for this club possible. This is a mediocre organization and it has been for decades. I want it all blown-up, razed to the ground and replaced with modern thought, analysis and planning.

I also want a winning and professional mentality inculcated into the organization and everyone who works in it. If a player or ticket-taker can't make the grade they need to go.
Most of what needs to be done is up to the owner.

I am not going to keep arguing why (see my previous posts on this thread), but I see a manager who does not nor has he ever accepted mediocrity. He appears to be trying to establish a mentality that at the minimum a player must want to play for the club and when they do better give their best effort. Once that work ethic is established a team can start taking the next steps.

Best to you.

We are a shambles under Rafa. More than we ought to be even when considering the players that have been missing.

I remember those times as a teenager, and the feeling about the club around the time of that Coventry match in 1983 before our mid eighties success. I remember parking at the Mons and trudging to games in the rain, for what? For the love of Everton and nothing else. It's like a marriage you are solemnly committed to , ‘For better or for worse'.

With advance season ticket sales now we are in a completely different era, but the sentiment amongst fans is similar. The situation is similar. The leaflets you refer to, I remember them,, were asking for the heads of Kendall and the chairman. We were 16th and about to play second division Stoke in the FA cup.

What followed that season is part of Everton's history. I'm not so confident of history repeating itself in that fashion, but maybe longer term we can make incremental progress following this and next summers transfer windows, coupled with a more youthful energetic side finding essential confidence that comes with one or two wins.

Here's a good article from the Guardian six years ago highlighting those difficult times and the resurgence. Worth a read.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/that-1980s-sports-blog/2015/oct/20/howard-kendall-everton-fa-cup-1984

Steve Brown, okay if the phrase culture change annoys you then I'll describe it as Benitez putting his own stamp on things.

But really what's needed is a change of culture throughout the club. A change of mentality and a change of mindset. Not short-term reactions to runs of poor results. For 6 or 7 years now we've pretty much focussed on rinse and repeat. Focussing on managers is short-termism.

The answer lies way beyond the first team manager. Look at Manchester City and Chelsea as clubs now compared to the Manchester City and Chelsea I knew when I was 14 (1984). On Sunday I sat on a seat placed on a wooden floor with the stadium not looking much different to back then. I went to the same chippy I went to back then. Nostalgic? Yes? Loved it? Yes. But we haven't moved on. We all know that, so I know I'm preaching to the converted.

When I go to Chelsea, the stadium is unrecognisable from 1984.

So, I get what you're saying, but for us mere mortals who read all things Everton, there is no evidence, but he does appear to be marking his territory.

We've won more games than the bottom 3 combined, and they're not gonna get any better. And we have reinforcements arriving off the transfer train and the injured list.

I now question the owners committment? employed an ex Liverpool legend, a manager whose ideas and tactics were outdated many years ago. An owner who doesn't even bother turning up to games any longer. Has he lost interest other than continuing his efforts to build BMD?

If that man at the top of the helm is making poor decision after decision what message does that send out to all those employed within an organisation.

Where is the communication from our owner to its fans, instead he goes through some no mark in the media to channel it.
I mean who there right mind comunicates through Jim White???
It's madness, absolute amateurish in the logic behind it an how one would even comtemplate communicating in this form.

I find it staggering how complacent we are acting, as a club and a fanbase.

I've been prepared to give Rafa time and frankly don't care who he has managed previously. The weekend was a turning point for me. He should have found a way to play Digne. He might not be in vintage form but he is still a decent left-back.

Playing 5 at the back at home against anyone but Man City, Chelsea or you know who is beyond poor management. It is frankly giving up before the game starts and saying the other team are better than we are. Inexcusable.

Hopefully, it comes right and we can get back to some of the enjoyable footy from the first few games but Benitez now has to show me something different before he gets the benefit of the doubt from me again.

Christine, I just recoil in horror at the thought of us "offloading" any of those three. One step forward, one step backwards.

Now take one of its rivals to show the difference if you appoint the right man with the right business acumen and an affinity with the business. A man who had previously worked for the company so knew it very well, who had worked under probably the worlds best manager and also inherited a business that had underperformed. Despite a rocky start within a couple of months he had completely rejuvenated a business and hadn't got rid of key people and only bought in a couple of young workers.

My memories of the later Gordon Lee teams were not great. Even Howard's fist stint saw some poor signings and decisions in the early seasons as he played around trying to get the right formula. But history and the league finishes won't tell you that. Generally 7th and 8th before we hit the jackpot.

Although 7th and 8th in the context of there not being a top 4 providing Champion's League back then wouldn't be as impressive a finish as it would this season if we somehow pulled that off. The difference, and this isn't just my nostalgic hindsight or my Soothsayer powers at the time, despite that dark winter of 83, you felt something was going to happen.

But if I'm going to single out teams based on gut feeling as to how I felt at the time, I'm afraid it was Howard's second and 3rd coming as well as the last throws of Walter Smith's reign. I felt pretty low as an Evertonian in those periods.

He's doing well now but must have been close to the sack a few times. They chose to stick by him and are now seeing a rebuilt team starting to look like it is going places. It's taken a lot of money to get there - along with a focus on developing younger players and everyone pulling in the same direction.

Benitez has arrived at a club in a mess, financial constraints, loss of Sigurdsson in bizarre circumstances, dysunctional deteriorating squad, no clear strategy etc.

How well would Arteta, with no track record in management, have performed?

Taking Arsenal as an example, should we not stick by Benitez in order to reap rewards of his squad overhaul later?

That is not to say I'm a huge supporter of Benitez by the way - more to say that managerial chopping and changing does little to address our real problems which are largely off the pitch.

Talking of wanting a manager, since Moyes left, I didn't want Martinez, my memory of Koeman the footballer blinded my judgement, didn't want Silva, don't / didn't want Ferguson (or Unsworth) and didn't want Benitez. I didn't fancy Arteta either by the way.

Easily pleased me!!

There is one with Steven Gerrard which I decided to listen to (bit of a strange thing to do I agree). Anyway, he says that Benitez was the most tactically knowledgeable manager he has worked with, and the one who developed his game the most. Agreed this was some time ago, but it is something to consider.

Incredibly out of the nine points gained since that opening period, six have come from matches with Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, and United, with another three gained from beating Norwich City.

It's a bloody good job we had the new manager bounce in those first four games, isn't it?

I'm not sure, but for every player who doesn't seem to like him, there is another who will probably say the complete opposite, but that's most footballers really, they like you when they're doing well, but when they're not, sometimes it's easier to look for excuses and blame somebody else?

I heard Gerard could never understand why Benitez never used to praise him Ian? Although it didn't stop him giving everything for his team, because the man seemed to have a built in desire to always do his best, and that's why sometimes I think “a lot of footballers” get away with murder.

You want him out after six months, I want Kenwright out after twenty years or more.

I want the Everton away fans to be cheering the team off the field on Saturday night, it will mean that we have won.

Hopefully we're putting in place the sort of club architecture that allows a more progressive manager to step in from there. Potter is the current flavour of the month - like Rodgers and Martinez previously. It'll probably be someone else in 18 months.

If Benitez stays longer it will be because he's turned it around and been a success, something we can probably all tolerate.

Sacking a manager is common place. Why can't people embrace that fact and accept it's common practice. We aren't getting near the top 3 so why not change the manager?

There will always be the flavour of the month managers as they punch above their weight and then slip back into what is expected of the club based upon finances. Potter, Rogers and Dyche are examples.

The biggest club in world football have swapped managers since Ferguson retired. Chelsea have swapped and changed, City swapped and changed until they landed the big fish.

Why can't we swap and change until something sticks. Justifying this fellas position by wanting 'stability' or his own stamp is burying your head in the sand.
This fella is so bad people will end up wishing for Moyes back for another 11 years of nothing.

Imagine if Benitez had all of city's money and he brought in players that just wanted to 'play for the blues' whatever the fk that means. Giving him his utopian platform.
Are people forgetting that his supposed style of football is functional at best.
We would still be light years behind the top 3.

We haven't broken our transfer record for 5 years in an era of the 50m bench filler at the top club's. That leaves us with no more than pride when it comes to contesting against the big boys.

Has Benitez got it in him to restore some sort of pride amongst fans that he once belittled? Fans at the match are actively turning against each other over this guy.

He has to go.

Could the Hull City game be the Stoke cup game, I certainly hope so.

You say: "I don't see it coming from any manager who has been in charge of a relegated team and who can't reason or explain to his players why he wants them to play in a certain manner."

1. We are not going to be relegated for reasons I explained above.

2. Who says Benitez can't explain what he wants his players to do? Townsend has said numerous times that Benitez is never satisfied and even after a game when he scores Rafa will tell him thinks he needs to do to improve.

Watch a show called "Soccer Box" with Gary Neville in which he interviews famous ex-players like Wayne Rooney. Neville asked Steven Gerrard (yeah I know, I don't like him either) questions about Gerrard's managers and Gerrard's comments were that he enjoyed playing under Brendan Rogers the most because they had more of the ball.

He wanted to win the most for Houllier because he was like a father figure and wanted to make him happy. Gerrard said that Rafa got the most out of him because he pushed him so much to improve. You have to watch the whole show because the discussion is in one segment and they come back to it later.

As for who says Benitez can't explain what he wants his players to do, ermm, Benitez did in his press conference when he said they had been practicing the set up and defending set pieces all week. So, he either got it wrong or didn't explain so that the players could implement it. Or maybe, like Digne, didn't feel free to comment on it.

I'm sorry but I don't need anyone to explain what happened some years ago when you can see his effect on our team but did they comment on or interview somebody from his time at Newcastle and in China?

I just haven't seen anything from this man that makes me think he can turn around that which he has overseen so far this season.

What is this idiot on about, who does he think he's kidding? I haven't seen a single scrap of evidence of this, he wouldn't know a high press if it kicked him in the bollocks. We barely get out of own half regardless of who we're playing.

I say the same thing every season and now, its the players we keep buying thats the problem not the managers we employ.