Pickford penalty saves not enough for heart-broken England

I'm not sure how much more of this I can take. The BBC's nauseating coverage is turning me into my grumpy Grandfather.

News broadcasters who clearly are not sports journalists attempting to pretend they're really into football, but clearly know very little.

This is going to be a long day. Sorry to be the Euro equivalent of the Christmas Grinch, but wake me up when it's August 14th.

Despite having a personal sweepstake interest in Italy, good luck to Jordan tonight. Sadly, I don't think Dominic will feature, but for him, I hope he does.

He will probably miss out again as three out of the 26 won't be named, another ridiculous Uefa rule that alienates 3 guys from feeling part of a matchday squad, what's the point of that?

Both teams are well managed. Both teams have been successful particularly in defence. Both teams have those special players that can turn a game around.

Where the stars start to align are in the coincidentals. It is 28 years since Argentina won in the Copa. It is many years since they beat Brazil in Brazil. It is 55 years (I think) since England won a major final.

I have to put up with my accountant and my hairdresser being Italian but both seem nervous.

England 2-1 Italy. Shit, I have to get up before 4:30 pm to watch. Okay, I think I have convinced myself it will be worthwhile!

I think they will win it. It's going to be tough sat amongst the cockneys tonight watching my sweepstake going up in smoke but at least then I'm clear for the run into the new season.

Italy are no mugs, and are well coached. I feel that the loss of Spin-ah on Italy's left hand side is a massive loss for them, and I think Southgate will exploit that heavily.

It will unbalance a very otherwise balanced Italian side, and tip it to England.

Could be wrong, but I think England has the quality to take this down. I said before, and I'll stand by it, this is the best England team I've personally ever seen.

Praying Pickford doesn't cock something up. They (the press) LOVE to blame him, and they'll eat him alive if he makes an error.

It's coming home?

1-0 Italy or 3-1 England. The first 15 minute's could be crucial.

Oh for the days when sport had its proper place as an adjunct to the News, almost an afterthought tacked on the end of proper news about the Real World. What possible justification is there to lead every news programme with the total non-news that is the asinine build-up to any game? But anticipating the news seems to be the new normal...

We're on an Everton website as Evertonians commenting on international football. Just because I'm not an England follower doesn't make me a dickhead surely?!

Good luck to both teams, I hope we see a good game of football.

Good luck England (for the wife), forza Italia (for my sweepstake).

Most important, let's see a worthy final and game of football.

On the other hand, I’d really like them to lose for every other reason.

I think it was Radio 2 who led their news bulletin with the "story" that Gareth Southgate said his players would try their best.

"War breaks out worldwide. First, over to the England camp where we understand the boys have been relaxing with a game of bingo."

So nervous tonight, been on me all day. Come on, England, let's fucking do it.

And now I've got Sweet Caroline. A forever ruined Apre Ski song.

I just wanted to see the match, nothing else, but I'm so knackered I'll probably be in a coma before it starts.

Havent even had a bevy - Probably the only one in our street...It's already getting messy. The women and the girls are creating that "Ladies day at Aintree" atmosphere. Half of them don't know what the party is about.

Engurland comes to Kirkdale

It’s called experience that Darren, I’ve done exactly the same myself, although I’ve been getting a load of wattsapps, showing the England fans carrying on like divi’s, from both my sons who have gone back for the final.

Come on you Whites.

On a football note, it's a really cautious line up from Gareth. Italy gone for a midfield trio and so likely to control possession. We've got a lot of defending to do.

Now I'm being subject to Cockney "hey Jude"

Come on kick off. Please

Everything else surrounding it is nonsense.

But sport being what it is, the game is just as likely to be won by an unrehearsed touch of brilliance or a tragic error.

Italy has looked the best all round team to me, able to press high, break at speed and attack in numbers, or batten down the hatches in stormy seas when necessary.

England by contrast has looked more functional rather than inspired.

I lean marginally towards Italy, but if England does it, it will be on merit because Gli Azzurri is a very good team sprinkled with lots of players with plenty of smarts.

Who Dares Wins.

And no matter what - DCL will be the only Englishman with a World Cup Medal and a European Championship Medal. Stick that up your Jordan Henderson and Harry Kane.

Hope England do it. There will be such an outpouring of joy around this country

Initial lousy start with Maguire's awful back pass. From the resulting corner, England excellent in turning the ball over and getting up the pitch in numbers.

EXCELLENT goal.

Southgate's game plan definitely working better than Mancini's, from front to back. Jordan only had one 'shot' on target all half, a dribbling effort on 46 minutes.

Rice and Phillips and the work they do is allowing England's back 3/5 retain their defensive shape better than the Italian defence is doing. England's 3 centre backs not being drawn out of position by the forwards thanks to Rice and Phillips, whilst on the offensive - as demonstrated by the goal - the wing backs Trippier and Shaw are finding plenty of space down the flanks to exploit.

Both Kane and Sterling coming deepish which is confusing the Italian defence but also running directly at them face on with the ball. England has created far better openings. Italy virtually nil. ALL players are looking to play in team mates in behind the vacant spaces England's play has created in the Italian defence.

1-0 is never ever enough, but England's set up and play is far superior to what Italy is offering. Good game and a deserved lead.

Darren - you win the prize for being less of a miserable git than me 👍

England only have themselves to blame for allowing Italy to come more on to them this half.

Quickest opening goal - and then the other team dominate and win 2-1

They totally surrendered 2/3rds of the pitch to Italy and the inevitable happened. The wind was in Italy's sails and the momentum has totally swung away from England.

England's subs haven't helped them. Saka just isn't up to speed to the pace of the game and isn't offering what Trippier gave. A threat going forward and snarling defence. Henderson likewise for Rice.

Get back to something like they played in the 1st half, England wins. Continue as they played in the 2nd half, Italy wins. And that's before we consider pens.

Too much controversy.

🤦‍♂️

Very strange selection for the penalty takers.

Jordan did his job.

The senior players should have been more involved in the shoot-out, and asking players to come on just to take a penalty is so hard for them. Italy was the better side and England have to accept that, but the opportunity was there to blow Italy away in that early period of the game.

Another 18 months until we begin the circus all over again.

The 2nd half was embarrassing if that's the way Southgate sent them out to play. You're up 1-0 with 45 minutes to play, you force them to defend.

You don't surrender 2/3rds of the pitch. You come out with the accelerator pedal pressed to the floor. You're winning The other guy has the problem, not you.

Anyway, good boy yourself Pickford. I see a big hand for you first time you come out at Goodison.

England had the ability to win, Southgate just chose to play it ultra safe. And yeah Barry/Colin Saka and Sancho dropped in to the shootout like that was too much. The latter I don’t think even touched the ball before the shoot out. It’s one thing lumbering some old has been like Waddle with that but FFS a teenager who Arteta overlooks frequently I think put him in an unfair position.

The 2nd half was embarrassing if that's the way Southgate sent them out to play. You're up 1-0 with 45 minutes to play, you force them to defend.

You don't surrender 2/3rds of the pitch. You come out with the accelerator pedal pressed to the floor. You're winning The other guy has the problem, not you.

Perfectly said. Couldn't agree more. They turtled up, sat back, and paid for it.

Not sure of the sense in selecting a 19 year old to take the fifth penalty?

Southgate is a coward, he's got a squad loaded with offensive talent but puts out a defensive lineup every time. Wonder how many one-nils a Pep or Klopp would play with that squad?

Glad Jordan did well, let someone else be the goat. I nominate Southgate but the last 3 penalty takers can have a bit of it too.

Good effort to take it all the way though. Just a shame we couldn't hang on for the win.

Italy were more talented, more organised, had too much know how and experience. It would have been very harsh on Italy to lose on Pens... Thought Jordan did us proud

England would beat this Italian team in 3-4 years time...Their center back will be pushing 40 by then

Thanks for reminding me. England have been my escape from Gomez, Kenshite and Benitez. Now you’ve reminded me of even worse things than watching England

Hope the fans over there don't wreck the fucking place.

The best team won, spirit, guile, skill and through the tournament we’re playing football unlike Italian football of previous eras.

But England for me lost their belief in the most important game of the players international career.

But there’s some optimism for the future.

Never, thought of it that way. But there is a likeness.

Im happy Pickford done him self proud..

I’m pleased, and relieved given the bullshit of the media, for Pickford.

Since I can remember, every English manager has 1-2 undroppable favourites; from Martin Peters (Ramsay) to Bryan Robson (greenwood), Beckham, Rooney etc… always played if injured or out of form.

Mike "St Harry of Kane ( who failed to turn up again". Didn't deliver much, did he?! Would DCL done better?

This in my view is hopefully something that Southgate will grasp.

I was saying to my lad that the second half was light watching Everton quite often last season.

Well now hopefully full steam on getting some fresh blood into the Everton squad, but I have enjoyed this European Championship, and all in all the officials were decent.

Well done Jordan. England still have potential for the future, but I just don't think Southgate has what is needed. He has been described as a "nice man". Nice men should be selling ice cream or lollipops not managing England. We did "Okay" up to this game BUT ????? It just never ends.

and Sancho ahead of Grealish or Foden?
In proceeding to put a very inexperienced kid out front to take the fifth penalty was a disgraceful action. The lad will now have to live with his miss for the rest of his career.
Southgate through his penalty selections also cost Pickford, after his penalty saves, legendary status that too would have lasted for the rest of his career.

Now I understand.

Tricky thing with Southgate is that his record is second only to Alf Ramsey. So many great managers have tried and achieved less. But on the other hand did they have the talent? The so called “golden generation” had Joe Cole — good player but a shoe in even as a sub at Chelsea. Beyond the starting 11 we bulked out the squad with aging Carragher, King and Stewart Downing. I’d wager that Greenwood, Madison, Ward Prowse and Godfrey would’ve made that squad. Sven rolled the dice on a teen Walcott due to lack of options. Gareth had the luxury of excluding Ings, Watkins and Greenwood. Bobby Robson found room for the likes of Steve Hodge and the other Gary Stevens while TAA was Gareth’s fourth best RB. Beyond the CBs and goalie, Southgate could switch out any player for some equally capable. I’ve never seen that depth with England before. So is runners up good enough? I’d say “no” but for the X factor: experience. Mancini was accused of being on easy street at Inter as his main rivals were initially docked points. At City it was said he had the most money. Now surely his doubters must stop dismissing his achievements as he won this with an average squad. Much like Germany in 96, a team better than the sun of its parts. Then you have the likes of Chielini — a serial winner and the kind of character you’d want in the trenches. Trippier was the closest we had to that but he’s four years younger and less decorated. So overall I’d say we could have done better but the margins are small so we can’t turn on Gareth yet for coming as close as close can be

Pickford was outstanding. He was the one England player who can look back at the final and say that he had an excellent game. Maybe Luke Shaw as well. Both had brilliant tournaments in general.

I think people are more hacked off at Southgate for this shootout than the one he actually missed a penalty in, judging from the early reaction I've seen. I didn't watch the game so can't really comment on how warranted a scapegoating search actually is, but it certainly seems as if one is well underway. And the manager seems to be front and centre.

The big tournaments are often decided by whom holds their nerve better. Very glad Jordan was able to hold his, even if England ultimately came up short. One can only imagine the opprobrium had he been in any way responsible for the ultimate outcome...!
Once again, just gutted for all the England Blues who had their hearts (again) broken tonight. When the dust settles I hope they can take more positives from Englands journey through the tournament than the somewhat predictable tragi-ending. It surely won't be anywhere near the same wait until the next final for them.

We had hoped to toast to the England team at dinner but living in the States meant the we were able to drink to Sepp Kuss winning stage 15 of the tour.

Yeah Pickford had one sliced clearance and one miss placed pass v Denmark, both of which were way over hyped. Other than that he was excellent throughout.

I thought Sterling was phenomenal though ineffective tonight. I thought Mount was lucky to get the game time he did as he really did nothing through the whole tournament. Kane started slow, came good then faded tonight. I thought Rice showed tonight he’s more than a tackler as Phillips did earlier on. Foden wasn’t at his best this tournament but Saka and Sancho impressed. Honestly only Mount and Southgate (in the final) didn’t impress me.

Largely agree with that. Sterling was hugely effective at times - his direct and dynamic running caused problems for opposition defences all tournament. I do often find him hugely frustrating though, as he can lack the composure and decision-making to capitalise on his ability to beat a man and create a chance - either for himself or a team-mate, taking four touches when one or two will do - and that often allows the defensive cover to arrive. He does make great off-the-ball runs, and I understand why Southgate was so loyal to him, and he had a very good tournament but a very frustrating final.

Well done to Pickers whose tournament performance should only boost his self-opinion despite the ultimate disappointment.

Statement from the FA:

"The FA strongly condemns all forms of discrimination and is appalled by the online racism that has been aimed at some of our England players on social media. We could not be clearer that anyone behind such disgusting behaviour is not welcome in following the team. We will do all we can to support the players affected while urging the toughest punishments possible for anyone responsible."

Followup tweet from the England team:

"We’re disgusted that some of our squad – who have given everything for the shirt this summer – have been subjected to discriminatory abuse online after tonight’s game.

We stand with our players ❤️"

Unfair and flippant of me. As the game progressed, Italy's superiority started to show. Credit to England for staying with them, but in fairness, Italy were the team of the tournament. Forget the normal time score, the more the game went on, they started to control it.

England reflect English football. They lack the creativity in midfield. Lots of grafters but where is the creativity? Again, sound familiar? That's another debate, but England, like any other nation, will ultimately always be a reflection and product of its grass roots.

Varatti is some player. Unrealistic, but I'd love to have him. Chiellini; what a captain and leader.

Final point, well done Jordan Pickford. Not just the penalties, he made some crucial saves last night and had a fantastic tournament. Carry that into next season lad.

Bringing on 2 cold players... a kid taking the biggest pen? Surely you give your pens to the best strikers of the ball such as Chilwell.

Alll that talent on the bench wasted.
Mancini knows how to win, Southgate doesn't. And the fact he chose the order is just mind blowing.

But as with the pre-match build up yesterday, I'm watching the overly hyped media coverage of the "heroes" this morning.

They lost. Why do we celebrate plucky losers? No doubt as with the comedy breast wearing Gazza team who achieved nothing other than losing a semi-final, this lot will be afforded an open top bus for not winning?

If Germany (4 World Cups, 3 Euros) & Italy (4 World Cups & 2 Euros) are the international Manchester United & Liverpool, plucky England are the international plucky Everton. Big name but haven't been good enough or achieved anything in years.

That hurts to say it.

Should have brought on Calvert Lewin to change things, Kane contained in the second half , fresh legs needed. . Too late with supporting substitutions, especially when a corner was in progress.

Allowing a 19 year old to take the fifth penalty, while other more experiences players, especially Sterling, where available was poor, given Southgate's own experience. It was a experience rather than a training ground ability situation. Rashford was totally sussed out by the Italian goalkeeper.

O Leary ( Arsenal) who had never took a penalty before in his unfield play decided he was taking the final penalty for Ireland in a previous Euros, scoring . He was right

Will a blatant collective disregard for Covid with large unregulated crowds and the whipped up 'Freedom. day' be worth it in the coming months?

It helped us remain vaguely in the midfield battle but meant it was very hard to see how we (and Kane in particular) might score a goal.

Southgate has an absolute wealth of talent at his disposal. To win a tournament he's going to have to be brave enough to rotate Sterling and Kane and trust the likes of Sancho and even DCL. Grealish and Foden must also be used ahead of the more workmanlike Mount.

Pickford, pleasingly, should leave the tournament full of confidence that he's been just about faultless throughout. Neck and neck with Donnarumma for best keeper.

Finally a quick word for Stones who didn't put a foot wrong all tournament - and was inches away from connecting with a header that would have won it. He's matured.

Southgate hardly put a foot wrong in getting us to the final - although, to be fair, we were incredibly lucky to meet some average teams on the way to it, including the current Germany - but as he himself will admit, the final defeat is down to him rather than the players. He picked the penalty takers and - despite his cautious nature - took a huge gamble giving the final pen to a kid barely out of school who is not a regular penalty taker.

Sad ending to a great tournament for England. It was fun while it lasted, and it got the country going - even those who would normally ignore the game.

My only concern is that, considering the largest ethnic minorities in England are of Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi heritage, there are no South Asian players in the PL, let alone the England squad. I don't know if any work is being done to change that, but it should be.

Then, despite this he didn’t learn the lesson.

He started with a defender (Trippier) and sacrificed an attacker. By the time he put it right in the second half it was too late - Italy’s confidence was sky high. He had SIX senior players still available to take penalties - he put up 2 players who had no playing time and a 19 yr old kid who had played without any confidence whilst he was on the pitch.

Never rated his on field management and often despaired at his selections. How on earth could he use Grealish so little in the tournament is a mystery.

I wish that we fans had shown more patience with him and that the club had been in a better position to retain him.

As it is, I'm hoping we can replace someone like Keane or Holgate with someone like Stones.

Overall, it was a poor refereeing performance on the night.

I enjoyed watching Italy last night; and all through the competition, a "proper" excellent team. They had skill, pace, energy, aggression when needed (and sometimes when it wasn't) and they palyed good entertaining football.

I thought that England had begun to play a more adventurous, passing, pressing game throughout the tournament and began to look like a good team. We were passing well, plenty of energy, and looked the makings of a good side.

Why on earth they become like Everton in the second half, I haven't a clue. Well, probably because that's the tactics that the manager told them to play; and also because Italy never let up attacking them. Although Italy only scored one goal, they could have have more. It was stout defending and the brilliance of our Goalie, that kept the scores level.

I hope that Ancellotti's tactic of trying to pinch a goal and play it tight, is not going to be followed by Rafa. I think that's what England tried last night in the 2nd half, and all they did was to give Italy the chance they wanted.

Maybe Italy would have become the team more likely to win anyway; but I think the we handed them the space they wanted.

Watched the game in our local, so obviously a mix of blues and reds, and I couldn't believe the stick Pickford got from the RS. Some think he should have saved the Italian goal. Unbelievable!! Anyway, well done Jordan, for me Englands player of the tournament, and about the only one to come away with any credit from last night.

That is often understandable given the lack of quality ball players but this time it was different. Grealish and Foden are as good as any midfielders at that tournament yet featured very sparingly. They also work hard too - like Silva and Iniesta did for Spain.

As for the penalty takers, I expect they were chosen because they are the best at it. Although I do remember Stones beating, I think, Buffon / Juventus with a panenka in some tournament we played in the US years ago.

Jim @132; I have this kind of debate with my youngest brother. The poor lad grew up only knowing the Moyes era, so his expectation of what represents success is having a decent season and getting to a final. Mine is very different even if some call that unrealistic. But from experience, I expect Everton to challenge.

Andrew @133; games are won and lost in midfield. You need grafters, but ultimately they will graft all day long. You also need creativity and skill.

The fans last night in the local London boozer. Again, a very different type of England following. Much more "student=ty" and BBC trendy types who arguably haven't really followed football too much but managed to book a table. The screams and screeches at every tackle were pretty annoying when you're trying to watch a game of football.

I'm nearly 50, allow me a grumpy pass!!

I think its quite obvious that he has an issue with Grealish as his lack of game time suggests this, and he has also been reluctant to play Foden. Yet it was obvious that Mount was having a poor game and how he played for as long as he did I was surprised. But then he brings Grealish on and plays him wide left not his best position by a long way.

In my opinion, the team played poorly, showed up their limitations, played too defensively. England need to play with alot more creativity in the future but hindsight is wonderful.

The pens are a lottery. Easy to say 'in all their penalty preparations during the tournament that they were encouraged to take them in that manner'

Can't imagine you can replicate the pressure of a penalty shoot out in training in front of 65,000 odd fans

As for playing with the handbrake on, Dave, I think that was a deliberate ploy to get us to the final. It worked. Unfortunately, it meant that come the final we lacked the courage to get the 2nd goal when the early momentum was with us.

Still, like I say, very fine margins and the Italians can count themselves lucky.

The reality is that England were 1-1 AET in the final in one of the three biggest tournaments in international football. At that level, you're right at the top and it's very fine margins that decide where the trophy actually goes. Bad or average teams don't get to that point, it's reserved for the best.

Arguing who was better on the day isn't worth much either. One team was leading from the 2nd minute - the game was changed from the start and the stats mean nothing. Overall through the tournament it ended about right. Italy and England were the best two teams and Italy shaded it.

My sense is that in the end the Italians were just a bit older and wiser. Mancini got a slight edge in the end over Southgate with his subs and approach to the shootout. The penalty takers had a few more years of life experience.

On the positive side, this is a young team that has just gained a lot of experience they can use.

Hopefully someone tells them what we all know. The stutter run up doesn't benefit you. And if you miss that way you give people something to point at. Pick a spot you're comfortable with and hit it there firmly.

Last note, I was relieved for Pickford and for Everton. He comes out with great credit, and we all know what could have happened. Again, very fine margins.

https://newsofthenews.com/england-fans-once-again-prove-why-theyre-the-best-in-the-world

England had actually won their last two penalty shoot outs in wins over Columbia and Switzerland, when the experienced players had shouldered responsibility. So, I simply don't understand why Southgate decided to place our destiny in our first major final for 55 years on players aged 23, 21 and 19. I actually felt really sorry for them.

Southgate said the defeat was down to him and he was absolutely right. He is too cautious and slow to respond to what is happening in the game. Worst of all, he doesnt learn from his mistakes.

On a flip side, brilliant game by Pickford. He didn't deserve to be on the losing side.

Agree Steve. I have no idea where this righteousness comes from considering how poorly England has performed on the international stage in comparison to others.

Christine, I mentioned earlier, but the approach on the field comes back to what England have available. What they have available is a product of the grass roots bar the odd one or two players. And yes, putting a 19 year old lad in that position was a huge gamble. You could argue it will make or break him. I hope it hasn't broken him as he looks a talent.

Fix the grass roots.

I'll get my coat.

But be back later to continuously repeat myself.

I do agree that It's a tiresome song, in much the same way as 'it's a grand old team' is.

Put it to bed and make new history Everton.

No idea how it is construed as arrogant, deluded or righteous. Only people who don't speak English as a first language could think that.

It teaches possession as well as pressing. And is good for developing fitness too.

Germany's system is fantastic. I lived it and experienced it and it is not a coincidence they have 4 World Cups and 3 Euros to our one and runner up. And that's without counting their runner up appearances.

Great post Allan Board (#160) and very interesting. I didn't watch it, but it sounds like the Italians just played it shorter and shorter so they could push England right back into their third thus negate the counter and potential killer second goal?
Pretty disappointing from the English brains trust if that is the case. Mancini is a wily one, but he didn't really have to stretch the old grey matter much outhinking Southgate there.

I think Allan makes some great points, but England were the more powerful team during the first half yesterday, and then when Mancini, was the more powerful coach, Southgate, was still concentrating on holding the lead, which played right into Italian hands, imo.

I was asked countless times about the game by different people, and my answer was that I couldn’t really call it, but if England were to win, they couldn’t afford to let Italy, dictate the pace of the game, and this is were I think England ultimately fell short, with Kane, coming way to deep, which also meant they stopped posing a threat, once the Italians began to dominate possession?

You must continue to have the the outlet or threat up top ahead of the ball - no matter how isolated that player may be - to get behind them quickly when you can get hold of the ball. Otherwise you'd just be inviting one of the best teams in Europe onto you for an entire half or so of football. Is that what happened? If so, oh dear, no wonder Southgate is getting a right bricking.

Successful teams, Everton included, have been built on solid defensive foundations. But they win stuff by attacking with intent and being on the front foot, knowing they can defend when they need to.

I can only think of George Graham's "1-0 to the Arsenal" as being an exception. But even then had attacking flair like Merson. He may be a gobshite of a pundit, but what talent, albeit wasted in a sad kind of way.

Great analysis of the problem.

What we did was have the goal only the side that a ball could go through, with a no go area of a metre square around it. It was a penalty if a defender stood in the area. We did this because noone wanted to be a goal keeper. Our passing, movement and shooting accuracy skills really improved though. , We could even play with one goal, with two teams interchanging defence and attacker according to possession. Didn't need alot of players to have a game either. If a team got ahead they might try keeping the ball further back with the one goal mouth which meant alot of chasing. For training t worked well. We use to have competitions and interchange team players to increase competitiveness.

Three points for a win, the level offside law, outlawing the back pass - it's almost as if the rules makers were trying to encourage teams to play more attacking football? Doesn't sound like the FA have gotten the memo though. (Or group email these days I guess!)

I get there will still be borderline interpretations, but wasn't that supposed to give advantage to the attacker? Now it seems if the entire body of the striker is behind the defender but his right shoelace isn't, it is offside.

Don't get me wrong, we've benefited and all you ask for is consistency, but I'd like to see the rules benefit and therefore promote more attacking football.

However, England played to their strengths and did well only losing on three twelve yard kicks in the end.

I had my doubts after the Scotland game when England couldn't score that they lacked the offensive diversity once Kane and Sterling were contained and so it proved yesterday with only a goal from a full-back and then being ineffective after the first 20 minutes.

There were other failures after, that others have alluded to but they were mainly the fault of Southgate's decisions.

The racist abuse towards the players is disgusting. I hope it’s just a few cowards hiding behind a shield of anonymity.

News outlets are also talking about a general feeling of negativity after last night. I have to say, I don’t have that myself. We were beaten on penalties by the best team in the tournament and the best side in Europe. Penalties are little more than a lottery at best anyway.

They were the better team on the night too. In my opinion their superiority didn’t come from being faster, fitter or even technically better with the ball. They just looked calmer and more assured. The longer the game went on, the more scared of losing we seemed to become. We stopped playing football and doing the things that’d served us well. In simple terms, I think we bottled it. Yes, Southgate made some dodgy calls but he’ll learn from those.

Yet despite all that, Italy couldn’t beat us in 120 minutes of football.

I couldn’t be prouder of the lads. We were there right til the end. And while they don’t always play exciting football, it’s been effective. With another 18 months experience, this England team are only going to get better. Will we win the World Cup? Probably not. But with two semi finals in three years, after two in the previous 28, we should be hopeful that our day will come.

a) letting a 19-year-old take a penalty with that much pressure?

b) thinking of paying £60m for a Newcastle reserve winger called Saint-Maximin?

Totally talking about youth coaching and development. Teach them to look after the ball when they have it and go and win in back when they don't. No interest in results. I always used to give them 15 minutes at the end to play a match but the 1 hour and 45 minutes before that was all about sessions. Warm ups too. I always focussed my warms ups with a football, not the side-to-side shuttles or laps of the pitch we often see on the parks throughout the country.

The clubs are spending fortunes on their academies, so I’d say it’s a lack of good coaching, dressed up as a lack of time, and to many people in these privileged positions, (that’s how they must view it) just toe the party line.

It’s not easy learning kids to kick with two feet, because it requires time and patience, and isn’t really enjoyable for young children, who just want to kick the ball hard, and are also not aware of the benefits such a skill will bring them in later life, as they get rinsed out through the ringer, because these clubs, have already invented the survival of the fittest, which is the bigger asset for to many IMO, unfortunately.

But consider this: In the 1960s, keepers were called Bert or Ron or Tommy. Sometimes Lev. They stood, usually, below 6' in height. Ron Springett was under 5' 10". Banks about 5' 10". In general, they were never famous for their suppleness or agility.

At a penalty, they had to stand on the line, like one of Lewis's. No gurning, sledging, dancing or twerking allowed. A penalty decision in those days was as good as a goal… if the taker hit it hard and low and aimed at the stanchion.

The first I saw missed was when Dunlop managed to sit on the ball from a West Ham penalty. The first Everton miss I recall (thanks to The Golden Vision) was Ball against Man City in 1967-68.

Today keepers are massive. Donna Murray stands at 6' 6". But the goal is still 8' high. We moan that Pickford is only just over 6'. So the Italian keeper can jog up and down impersonating a windmill whilst the lad who is waiting to take the kick. He is a proper athlete and has studied the methods of the taker on video. The Argie keeper was giving Mina loads the other night and put him off.

My point is that it's not just to do with "bottle". The keepers today are far more likely to save than 50 or 60 years ago… Like I said, anyone of that squad could have scored. Or missed.

I'd say that, if it was a training session, that every single player would score, if they took it seriously and really concentrated. That's why I could not understand how Southgate, who has experience of such a difficult environment, could actually bring two young players on with a minute left, especially considering how little football either had played in the last month.

But yes, I too was shocked that Stones wasn't among the penalty takers yesterday.

When I read that, I thought "Sweet Jesus, Gareth is managing England like you'd manage your computer team mates on the Xbox FIFA." (Bringing two fresh and non-fatigued forwards on in the last minute of a computer game to take penalties is probably really smart strategy by the way.)

Even then, it probably shouldn't have mattered – professional footballers ought to be able to hit a penalty? But in the end, yeah, it did matter.

It’s not just about winning, although that’s great when it happens,it’s about the togetherness, playing for each other and enjoying the time together as people as well as teammates, it’s great to see from the outside looking as well and the coaches are much appreciated as well for the purely voluntary work they do, or they should be anyway. I know I always did when I watched.

Yeah, I felt it was a risky strategy to sit back and invite Italy to relentlessly attack us for 80 minutes after the goal.

I also feel with the subs that Southgate expects too much of Grealish. In a couple of games, he has come on and made an immediate impact, helping to create a goal. But, for the last few games, Southgate seems to have it in his head that he can drop Jack into any game for a few minutes and expect a goal to quickly follow. He's not superman. He is going to have times when that happens and other times when 90 minutes prove unproductive.

I was at Wembley against Denmark, and thought that England had it in them to blow the Danes away, and felt the manager was too conservative, even though they won.

Play to your strengths, they say, but with so many good offensive players in their squad, I'm just not sure that England did!

I think you're right, James Ward-Prowse might have been worth a place in the squad, as a 'nailed-on' penalty converter!

The weakness of this was exposed in the Scotland game by Billy Gilmore who was able to keep possession and pass forward.

England continued this same plan throughout the tournament, only bringing Grealish on for limited periods. In his post-match interview, Southgate came out with a similar explaination to Gary Neville for not changing things in the second half.

The Italians exploited the same weakness that Scotland had exposed.

The national side has also employed top-quality coaches from abroad to coach the England team but all to no avail. France, Germany and Italy have produced top-quality teams that have won both the European Championships and, even more important, they have all won the World Cup on a regular basis, yet we struggle.

Also, given that the majority of the French players don't play in their own league, this makes their successes even more remarkable. Despite our own Premier League being hailed as the best league in the world, well it certainly doesn't help us produce top-quality English players.

Southgate kept the handbrake on. I was impressed with the back 5. Further afield… hit and miss.

Why did England play so deep yet Italy, with a 34- and 37-year-old, play a much higher line?

I am surprised you were impressed with our back 5 as it was meant to be a back 3, which allows the wingbacks to push forward when we have the ball, as happened for our goal. But we didn't see Tripper forward too much after that and, in the 2nd half, we played 10 men behind the ball and tried to hang on for dear life.

I thought Mount was totally ineffective and for me he isn't in the same street as Foden and Grealish. I know Foden was injured but Southgate has been reluctant to play him or Grealish. If my memory is correct, I think something happened between Southgate and Grealish when Southgate was managing the England U23 team.

England don't lack much now; they have got a lot of very talented young footballers… but until they have a coach who doesn't worry more about the opposition, this will continue to be their downfall imo. To be fair to Gareth Southgate, he his getting closer with a squad of players that have nowhere near peaked.

In Italy's case, put a couple of big slowish centre-halves on big slowish Kane, and invite Sterling to run into a group of five or six defenders, which he will do consistently, and then wait for him to cough up the ball and don't worry, he's never going to pass the ball. In England's case, eliminate Chiesa and outrun the ancient Italian side.

Mancini saw that the first half configuration wasn't working, so not only did he change the style of play, but he changed the players for more effective ones. This led to a much better second half but, even so, only the width of a post deflecting the ball back after Pickford's save allowed Italy to score.

Southgate – like Ancelotti and Everton's recent managers – did not have a Plan B, and came up with a series of far-too-late and spectacularly wrong substitutions, Saka for Trippier (who had been very good), Henderson (Henderson? Henderson… why, for God's sake?), and then the weird introduction of Rashford (who has been useless since around last December) and Sancho (who failed to impress as much as either Foden or Grealish in previous games).

Since Kane had been blotted out by two other agility-of-an-oil-tanker players, doubling the centre-forward position with Calvert-Lewin replacing the totally ineffective Sterling, or the equally useless but even less involved Mount, might have been a smart idea, especially given the number of crosses Trippier, Shaw and Philips got into the box.

For the penalties, I'd have gone with the England midfield/defence long before the dubious and/or inexperienced attacker. Philips, Rice (if he'd stayed on), Walker, Stones, Shaw (who probably produced England's best goal of the competition), even Pickford would have been better bets than the three who followed Maguire.

On this thread, many seem to be arguing the Italians were too good on the night, that England were in control for long periods, or that Southgate picked the wrong team or made the wrong choice in penalty takers. My take is different from all of the above.

I was very worried by the opening 15 minutes as I thought England were excellent and thoroughly deserved their lead with the full-backs central to everything and therefore Southgate fully vindicated with his tactics and selection. From then on, I felt Italy were in total control and their superior quality in midfield clearly evident with Verrati totally running the game. The equaliser was only a matter of when… not if.

If I were Southgate, however, after 80 minutes, I would have been ecstatic as they were still level in a game they had been second-best and I was amazed at what followed. With every Italian sub, I became more and more worried. From bossing the game, they looked out on their feet.

Off went real quality – starting with Barella, then Verrati, Insigne and then Chiesa… with Verrati going off the key tide-turner. Their replacements were all no better than journeymen and it was Mancini and the Italians who needed penalties in my opinion. I couldn't believe Southgate's negativity. This Italian team had run its course and were ripe to be torn apart by energy and dynamism with many of England's reserves arguably better than some starters, especially from an attacking sense. For me, Southgate couldn't have planned it better in his head and now all they had to do is let the handbrake off and become legends.

England got what they deserved and more importantly what they wanted. They wanted penalties. The respect he had for what became a very mediocre Italian team in extra time was mind-boggling. I would have gone 4-4-2 immediately in extra time, dropped Saka to left-back with only Rice (or Phillips) holding and Grealish central. Rashford left, Sancho right, Sterling and Kane up top.

The manager spoke of balance but the Italian threat and creativity were all sitting in the stands and the English now had all the talent at their disposal – a far cry from the beginning of the game.

This encounter was like a boxer who ran away from his stronger opponent for nine rounds, who had now punched himself out, amazingly deciding to continue running for the last three and putting fate into the lap of the Gods. Italy won. Football won.

Firstly, fans demand a British style in domestic footy, meaning possession footy played by elite countries is a change for us, immediately putting us at a disadvantage once we play the top sides.

Secondly, we just don't produce quality footballers. We delude ourselves about a 'golden generation' and people like Kane and Sterling who rely on strength and pace rather than guile and skill.

England winning something is as likely as Greece winning the Euros again…

"I didn't want to listen to your press for the next 40 years."

There's no avoiding that fate, win, lose or draw. 35 years on from the Hand of God, we still hear about it. 25 years on from an ironic song about losing, we still hear about it.

Foden, Mount, Grealish, Sterling are all more than capable of playing a possesion based game. I had no problem with how they set up first half but, as soon as it needed to be tweaked, Southgate lost his bottle... and the penalties really highlighted how poor he was under pressure.

Anyway, now for Everton. What players will we sign before the Florida Cup?

England have produced lots of good footballers; in the last 4 years, we have won the U17 and U20 World Cups. The National team have got to the Final of the Euros and to a World Cup Semi-Final.

We had the second youngest squad in the Euros so the future looks bright. The frustrating thing for me as a fan was that, in the second half, we did not attack them and kill the game off, because we did have the players to do it.

Also, I disagree about your opinion on Kane, he does not rely on strength and speed. He has guile and skill and is a fine goal scorer. Sterling also has guile, skill, pace and had a terrific tournament.

The penalties discussions I have seen, however, all seem to overlook the fact that, in the modern international game, keepers study the most likely penalty takers to give themselves a chance. Apart from Rashford, Sancho and Saka are relatively unknown in the area of penalty taking so Southgate could well have been trying to gain an advantage by choosing them over others on the bench. Unfortunately dropping two of them into the fire right at the end was not good management in my view.

I'm not sure how you saw the game differently, though; it was obvious that Southgate wasn't brave enough, which is what loads of people are saying I think, mate.

Also good points made by Barry, but I'd argue that England had better players on the bench rather than out on the pitch at times. They've still managed to get to the final, which is still a really good achievement, in arguably the hardest tournament in world football, even though they had a very favourable route to get there.

Football and life have been the real winners imo, though, because when football came home, life came back, in many different countries throughout Europe.

I didn't think Southgate was brave enough either. Didn't he watch Italy when they played Switzerland and Spain? They visibly wilted when those two teams attacked Italy and relied on penalties to get through.

Maybe Southgate will learn for the next World Cup, although he never learned from the last one.

Any chance you can explain that one, Tony? Did football come home? I don't think so…

And what exactly changed in these many different countries throughout Europe? Or are you doing your 'non-literal' thang again???

As for the vile scumbags abusing the players who missed, I hope they get named and shamed. There were many senior players not willing to take that responsibility last night.

And if you couldn’t see the difference that having a crowd made, Michael, there really isn’t nothing more to say.

My lad is now 10 but started playing when he was at school around 6 - we live in the Midlands now. A popular coaching scheme run by a local bloke was booked by the school to run after-school sessions. I was against my lad playing there because, I suspected and was proven right that there would be an emphasis on playing matches, scoring goals, winning games and getting the weekly man of the match award. I once went to see what they did after finishing work early. I saw a bunch of kids, running around, never further than 10 feet from the ball. Parents on the sideline telling them "to get stuck in". Each kid trying to run with it, then shoot. Not one of them got their head up, once. None of them could play with their head up. Nobody was in space. The coaches stood around, praising the bigger kids who looked the better players owing to their size then doling out the man of the match, invariably to the coach's nephew, each week. Not sure whether this is a measure of coaching in this country but it seemed a far cry from the coaching that I've read about at Ajax and Barcelona where kids are taught ball control etc. and how to play.

Youngsters need to learn how to play the game, not to be drilled in competing and winning meaningless trophies from the age of 5.

I agree doubling the centre-forward position with Calvert-Lewin and going full English in style with high balls and crosses would have made a big difference. Sterling was predictable.

However, we didn't have the quality to deserve to win it, either with our players or the tactics (or lack of tactics). As usual, the continental side was technically better and mentally stronger.

Even our best players don't seem that comfortable on the ball. One holiday in a non-tourist area of Spain, our bedroom overlooked a local football club and their evening training session looked great - Kids of all ages and both sexes in small groups, doing drills and technical exercises with the ball, then 4- and 5-a-side games, all having a great time. A lot different from our kids' football matches.

And while the team that follows Southgate was coming to terms with defeat in the shell of Wembley Stadium, another team was setting fire, often literally, to whatever goodwill these footballers had created. It was storming Wembley, it was drowning town centres in seas of debris, filling A&E departments with the victims of senseless punch-ups, defacing murals, and then blaming it all on people who look different behind the anonymous cloak of social media abominations. Boris Johnson’s subsequent criticism of online racial abuse on Monday morning was not great leadership, it was rank hypocrisy.

A crowd? What has that got to do with anything you said? No mention of a crowd...

And I ask again: What exactly changed in these many different countries throughout Europe? I'm really curious as I think I really must have missed something?

That's a double delight for me. UTFT

I was at the Everton home game against Chelsea just before Xmas – there were only 1,500 fans there but being back even with just that small number was emotional. The bigger crowd at Wembley gave an even bigger buzz; almost half the population of England tuned in to the game; and I don't know what the numbers were across Europe.

Well, it certainly came around to our house for a few weeks. This has been the best closed season for years. A triumph of a tournament.

I was slightly disappointed last night. Not the gut wrenching That's-my-week-fucked feeling you get when Everton lose, but I was a little saddened to see this group of players come up short... and I was sad to see the end of the tournament too.

I've loved seeing players (some of whom play right under our noses in the Premier League) really surprise me. I have really enjoyed the pride and passion of playing for their country.

Congratulations to Italy. If I was staying in Milan or Rome or Naples, I would have invited myself to their party.

Enter Rafa…

Allan, Tony, from a very young age, we should be teaching young players to use their lesser foot. There are plenty of sessions you can use to introduce it. I taught myself simply by kicking a ball against a wall only allowing myself to use my wrong foot! If I could masquerade as a left sided central defender later in life, then I find it astonishing someone can get the highest level and not have the confidence to swing the left peg when they need to.

It is something coaches should pick up on though and spend time on. To the point.

Like all coaching of most things in life, it takes a bit of thought, a bit of patience and a bit of planning based on the teaching point. A coaching session should be phased and progressive based on the drill or skill you want to teach and draw out. Not just stick players on a pitch and tell them to play and shout at them. But always give 15 minutes "free style" at the end. You still have to let the kids enjoy it right?! But if you get the session right, the players will put into practice what they've just spent the last hour doing; without thinking or realising it. Thye've learned.

Dave @188, I spent 6 seasons coaching a team of mainly the same group of players at Hayes & Yeading. I took them from U11s through to U17s. It is absolutely rewarding to see them come good. Being in west London, they came from very diverse backgrounds, some of them very deprived and football was their escape. It was a joy to see them come together on a football pitch.

To see them bond as a team was as humbling as it was watching them develop as people just as much as they did as footballers. They had me nearly in tears when they gave me a send off before deploying to Afghanistan. On other occasions, watching them in my garden at Barbecues I hosted, made me proud. Lads from privileged, affluent backgrounds alongside west African boys who I had to personally pick up as they couldn't afford to travel and then pay for them in terms of fees and fines (yes the FA actually fine youth players for yellow and red cards - never liked that). All mates and together because of their connection through the beautiful game.

Did I succeed? I didn't produce a professional, but a couple ended up playing semi professional with the likes of Staines. One flirted with Watford and another had trials with Tottenham. But I like to think I taught them life values as well as help them enjoy the game of football that continues to give me so much enjoyment. Another who remains a close friend of my son, coaches as part of a scheme for under privileged kids in east London sponsored by West Ham and runs his own football foundation for kids out in Zambia.

My coaching days are behind me now. After all those years away, I'm waiting for my season ticket again. Mr's O'Neill doesn't read ToffeeWeb, so doesn't know my intent!!

I enjoyed the Euros. I thought Jordan was excellent. I wonder if there will be any incomings for us in the weeks ahead?

Okay, Raffa man, let's see what you've got.

Spot on. I have supported Everton for 59 years, and it's some time since I felt real intense pride in an Everton player. But Jordan Pickford has done that for me in this tournament, and also prior to that in the way he handled the pressure he's been under, especially the disgraceful treatment of him by broadcast and social media in the wake of the incident with Van Dijk. I believe he has shown incredible mental fortitude and maturity.

I'm not normally too bothered about how England do but, when Pickford pulled off that second save in the penalties, the feeling was just pure visceral joy and pride, and very emotional.

Jordan Pickford is brilliant, he's a hero, and he plays for Everton.

Nothing has changed we still can't produce elite players, we still can't play possession football to match those brought up on it and hooligans not policed adequately go on the rampage and holler racist abuse.

Facts shatter media hype and gullible delusion I'm afraid.

The only thing that could have improved would have been scores equal at 5 pens each, then Pickford – who was scheduled to be the next penalty taker – scoring from the 6th and saving the next one.

It helped me be near as damn it comfortable on both sides, but oddly it wasn't until I was much older, probably 30 before it was 2nd nature. I put this down to just being more relaxed about my football by then.

When my kids came along, they had a ball shape of some sort placed in front of them soon as they could walk. By the time they were 3 or so, it was in the back garden with a small soft ball, so as not to have to lash at a heavier ball, you caress a football not obliterate it! I just followed the same regime I had done with my brother and always stayed positive and praised their efforts the same for both feet. Both my kids are 2 footed now, so I know it can be done.

My only advice to coaches would be keep your nerve, keep it simple on instruction at under 6 and you can't praise enough.

Is that it? … you do talk some utter shite, Tony.

Football has always been there. It was there throughout the pandemic, once they started playing again... But, as I recall, you were one of many who didn't want it to "because people were still dying".

Sorry to burst your little bubble but it's really not that special. It's only a sport. There are many others. Nothing has really changed.

"Football's coming home" – if three words could jinx a nation. It's the entitlement exuding forth from so many in anticipation of expecting to win... and then pretending "we are all winners" when we fucking lost by being absolute cowards for most of the match and with 3 of our 5 penalties taken in a manner that even Darrren would normally be all over.

But don't let this glimpse of reality stop you being our little ray of sunshine, Tony.

Now that's a post I can fully understand.

No non-literal word games and shite.

Just spot on the truth. Well said.

I’ll tell you Danny, those kids lives were all the better for meeting you and you got your real reward in seeing them growing up to become nice people themselves. Give yourself a pat on the back, well done.

Craig’s final paragraph @213, is exactly how I view quite a lot of kids football, because the kids who want to listen and “work really hard” are definitely in the minority, and football played the right way, is really hard work imo.

Hard work isn’t easy to get the kids to do, such is the influence of a lot of parents, who make excuses for their children, and then you’ve got the kids who are not so lucky, because although nobody makes excuses for them, it’s only because they have to do everything for themselves, which usually means life is already hard enough in a lot of cases, and is probably why you must have been like a real father figure to a few of those kids Danny👏👏

I sometimes feel guilty speaking the unvarnished truth because in reality the game lives and breathes on myth and fantasy and people don't like it being pointed out. But watching hoodlums charge the barricades at Wembley with the accompanying racism over penalties maybe a dose of reality is needed.

Not holding my breath given the vested interest of English media frenzy.

You'll always be my little ray of sunshine, and you can take that literally!! I'll serve you in Michael.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments that you took from the Fiver.

I have just looked through some footage posted on Twitter showing the scenes inside the stadium. It shows people being ejected into the concourse, but it shows people being kicked and hit and one Asian guy is pulled to the ground and kicked by 4 or 5 people. Seems this country can't celebrate anything unless they have consumed an inordinate amount of alcohol.

Just seen the scenes back in Italy of the players returning with the cup, no drunken louts to welcome them, just really happy football fans.

I see in tonight's press conference, Johnson is talking about applying to host the World Cup along with Ireland in 2030, let's hope Fifa have got more sense. The scenes in Leicester Square last night were appalling again, a mob of drunken yobs had littered the whole place with bottles and beer cans. How the rest of Europe and the World view this behaviour, I have no idea.

As a teenager, I could never get my head round the fact that only Everton played like this. Leeds were a close second, but spoilt it by being cynical and dirty. I always thought, if the Brazilians can play lovely football, so can the British, and of course Everton provided evidence of it. But at the same time I knew it was to do with how kids are coached. I wasn’t talented at footy, but wanted to be like Colin Harvey, so practiced for hours doing ball juggling and shooting and passing with my other foot. But when I played in teams and tried to do something ‘fancy’, I was told to get it up the field, long balls all the time. Fancy stuff wasn’t tolerated.

I think things have improved since then, probably with exposure to skilled ball-players from other countries, but at the same time British football is still characterised by more direct play, and less intricate technicality. The England team has consistently shot itself in the foot by selecting technically less talented players.

I don’t think things have been helped by the successes of Liverpool and Man Utd, teams that have consistently been more direct in their style. Shankley built an empire based on supreme fitness rather than fancy footwork, and that empire continues under Klopp. Perhaps if Everton had been more successful, and had dominated the 70s and beyond with our ‘School of Science’, British football would have been better technically, and England might have fared better?

I feel many who were saying Southgate wasn't brave enough were speaking largely from the thirty minute mark and arguing that he wasn't proactive then. Personally I wouldn't be too critical at that point because Italy in my opinion were superior in all departments.

The game was reminiscent of the 2012 game in my mind where Pirlo and co were running Gerrard and the like ragged and for me Italy were operating on a different level. I felt Southgate and the English lads were just trying to hang in there and keep things tight as possible. I felt it was more reflective of Italian quality than England failing to be progressive and believed logically that Italy would go on to win 2-1.

However I was amazed at how Italy went from full to empty so quickly. Against Spain as Dave mentions was understandable because they were without the ball for so long. Here the ball seemed to be doing the work. My criticique of Southgate was from this point onwards only. I felt saying he should have changed things after 30 mins or different penalty takers wasn't where their chance of glory was lost. From my standpoint I could see why he couldn't afford to open up earlier due to the threat from the opponent, however in extra time that threat was gone and it was like he was defending against an imaginary threat as opposed to a real one. The game was there to be won from that point and an historic opportunity to be seized.

Italy had two central defenders sharing over 70 years and in my opinion no great players, and just a few with the sort of vibrancy our bench had.

And yet....... the dreaded stats say we had one attempt on goal in two hours, taking the lead.

I'd bet the Italians would've paid to keep our brilliant-in-the-air centre-forward on the bench throughout the entire match, leaving those with an ability to cross to aim at Kane, with Slab'edd and the average-in-the-air Stones to join in on set pieces. What a waste.

And for what it's worth I fully agree with Tony A on players being one-footed throughout their years-long journey from child to adult amid our nationally mediocre coaching set-up, unlike the countries who win tournaments all over the world.

From experience in the ‘field', I've seen the films etc and the big issue is the 30+ assholes who are pissed and coked up. That issue is screwing up Merseyside nite life week after week.

I've seen these “dads” in their “let's be lads” mobs causing absolute nightmares while wired on alcohol and bashed up “beak”… women too. It's not kids. They can't afford the £20 bag of crap and go for the also crapped mixed-up stuff. It's the older fuckers who can afford this and it's fuckin dangerous stuff….

I don't give a fuck what they do to themselves but these years on alcohol and the white shite think they are indistructable… and will twat the very life out of you and not have a clue what they are doing. I've seen the fuckers snorting the shite in the toilets at Goodison on many occasions. Yesterday was not …. sadly… a surprise.

Michael, do a ToffeeWeb survey and ask if crowds being allowed into stadiums across Europe has been good for life and made watching the football more enjoyable, and we will see who talks the most shite.

Agree entirely.

I've said elsewhere I put the dumbing down of English football at the door of LFC with their graft over elegance success. And as you rightly say the ogre has returned with "run 'em hard, run 'em fast" Klopp, however, it must be said their recruitment over the years has been at a level we can only dream of.

When either Rice or Phillips were substituted, he replaced them with Henderson, another defensive midfielder. All the young talent on the bench, and never given a chance. For two games, Calvert-Lewin didn't even make the bench, the only target man in the squad other than Kane.

Mancini didn't hesitate to take off his star players, while there was certain players who were never going to be subbed all through the tournament by Southgate.

True! It's an odd thought, given the level of Everton these days, that in 1970 the entire Everton side could have been the England team in Mexico and might have fared better than the actual England team with regard to World Cup success. From the then sublime to the current mediocre.

I don't accept the “it's a young team that will come good in the future”. That's not a given. Like their predecessors, eg, Keegan, Robson, Gazza, Beckham, Rooney, Gerard, Lampard etc… they are now losers. It will weigh on them like the players of the past and, unless they win the next World Cup, that weight will become heavier and heavier.

And for our owns sakes, let's ban “It's coming home”. Skinner and Baddiel have lived off that shite song for over 30 years and it's won us fuck all!!!!

England have finished in the final four in consecutive major tournaments for the first time in their history. Foden and the unfortunate Sancho won the U17 World Cup a mere 4 years ago and now they've both been part of the most successful English Euros campaign ever.

The womens national team has made consecutive World Cup semi-finals, and the U20s and U17s as mentioned have had historic success. The FA finally seem to be running a cohesive and high-level performance program that is yielding tangible results, across the board.

England just held the numerical edge in the penalty shoot out of a major final if you please! Yes, they sadly, criminally, unforgivably, stupidly, predictably, horribly, tamely let it slip. But you've got to get to the prom to find out you're not her type, as they say.

England failed to qualify at all for the finals of the 2008 Euro tournament in Italy – the wally in the brolly, you may recall. That was the catalyst for what has now been this, the most sustained period of success in the national team's long history.

There's a laundry list and a half of alleged deficiencies on this thread, minutely detailing the problems with the England team. The truth is, they just cruised to a major tournament final, with a very young team, and didn't even really ever extend themselves. This was after getting to a World Cup semi-final, with a youngish team that never really extended itself.

I think England supporters can expect more tournaments like this one in the short- and medium-term, to be honest. Many of this playing group have now been at the sharp end of tournament football for virtually all of their playing careers, and with most of them reasonably expecting to play most of their best football in the future. There's not really any reason for any England supporter to feel negative about the future, quite the opposite.

Your feelings on what happened the other night are an entirely different affair obviously. The whole point of working assiduously to receive opportunities like England just had is, of course, to seize them. I do get that. But I take the view this tournament will give this group both the confidence and desire to really seize the next opportunity they are given. This will make England even more difficult tournament fodder, I'd wager.

But maybe dump Southgate too, just in case.

My mate and my sons went back yesterday. One of my lads phoned me and said it's totally different, it's horrible, and he couldn't even begin to understand why people carry on the way they were doing, saying it was full of absolute gobshites. He said today there was firms of little street gangs everywhere, and it just looked like they were trying to roll anyone who they felt they'd get away with rolling. My mate just said that Wembley was full of vultures, and he's a lad who has seen a lot of life.

But that's the reality of life sometimes, and experience had already taught me that yesterday was going to be like that, if England got to the final, and is exactly the reason I chose to go to the semi-final instead, and saw that little ray of sunshine that literal Mike must have been alluding to.

For me England (and Southgate specifically) clearly bested Italy (and Mancini) in the 1st half. England's early goal was a summation of a perfectly executed tactical plan.

Yes, Italy had the best of the possession percentage, but it was England that controlled the game, playing it on their terms. Jordan only had one 'shot' on target all half, a dribbling effort on 46 minutes.

England's 3 centre backs kept better defensive shape than Italy by not being drawn out of position by the Italian forwards thanks to Rice and Phillips work in midfield. The defensive line was further bolstered by the wing backs Trippier and Shaw, who on the offensive - as perfectly demonstrated by the goal - found plenty of space down the flanks to exploit.

Both Kane and Sterling coming deepish confused the Italian defence and further made life difficult for them by their direct face-on running directly at them.

The result? In the 1st half England created far better openings than Italy with ALL players looking to play in team mates in behind the vacant spaces England's play has created in the Italian defence. The stats and actual play confirm this.

Trippier and Shaw's advanced play kept both Italian marauding full-backs 'honest' and at home, as well as forcing Italy’s wide attackers Insigne and Chiesa to track back defensively. A further result of this was both attackers had to start their runs from deeper against TWO lines of English defence, far from the England goal rather than play on the shoulder of the last defender as they had done all tounament. Between them in the opening half the Italian pair had just three shots all from 30 plus yards and a mere three touches inside the English penalty area, easily dealt with.

All England had to do was repeat the performance of the 1st half for the rest of the game to not just see the game home, but in all likelihood add to their score. But of course, Mancini and his street-smart team were never going to go quietly into the night.

Ten minutes into the 2nd half Mancini had seen enough and switched out the anonymous Immobile and Barella for Beradi and Cristanti. As Allan wrote, Italy started squeezing the space between their defence and midfield which England had played through and around in the 1st half.

Southgate and his coaching staff and senior England players on the pitch did not react to this. Increasingly, ALL England's players started dropping deeper and deeper, ALL behind the ball, ALL the play in their defensive half. In truth, the only English player who visibly and audibly was shouting at his team mates to play further up the pitch was...Jordan Pickford.

No longer were Rice and Phillips winning the ball in Italy's half and setting up advanced counters. They were struggling to get a foot in just beyond the 'D' of their own penalty area. No longer were Kane, Sterling or Mount availabe in advanced positions between Italy's midfield and defensive lines. They were back behind the centre circle in their own defensive half, so no easy out ball.

England then facilitated Italy in their high press. Apparently, Kane had 24 touches in the first half of the game. Just 12 in the second half. And NONE all game - NONE! - in the Italian penalty area. In 120 minutes of football England's main striker didn't touch the ball ONCE in Italy's penalty area. That is seriously flawed.

Unlike some I have absolutely no issue with Kane playing from deep as he does. The vision, the accuaracy and the perfect weight of his crossfield pass into the path of Trippier for England's goal was testimony of the merit in him doing that. Trippier didn't even have to break stride or take a touch before putting in his cross for Shaw to score. But you also need to have Kane running onto balls from the flanks in the penalty area as he did to score earlier in the tournament. That didn't happen Sunday.

The turnabout was best illustrated in the 2nd half when you saw the soon-to-be 37-year-old Chiellini almost constantly playing 10-15 yards beyond the half way line with the 34-year-old Bonucci comfortably 'defending' the chicken coop alone.

Increasingly, again as Allan wrote, the game in the 2nd half was played on Italian terms, as the 1st half had been played on England's terms. With the introduction of Berardi together with Insigne and Chiesa their movement and interchanging of positions gave England's defenders problems they didn't face in the 1st half.

Southgate's 2nd half substitutions did not alleviate the growing momentum Italy gained. I see in some quarters that Jordan was blamed for 'only' pushing the original goal attempt against the post, thus keeping the ball alive. This ignores the England defence failing to adequately deal with the near post ball from the corner; Stones being the wrong side of Chiellini which enables the ball to get to Verratti who has got goalside of Mount. Verratti's header is valiantly defended by Jordan who gets really unlucky that it bounces back off the post to Bonucci who has ran straight past the flat-footed Maguire to force home the equaliser.

But let's blame Jordan, eh?

The equaliser came on 67 minutes. Three minutes later, Southgate made his 1st change. And it wasn't a good one. Saka for Trippier (who had continued to play well). The 19-year-old played well in earlier rounds, but even so, I don't understand how he was a starter ahead of the likes of Foden (under utilised for me after the first couple of games) and Grealish. Foden being absent yesterday hurt England a lot. He would have been an ideal 1st substitution. Saka never got up to pace with the game.

Another 4 minutes played and whilst I understand withdrawing Rice who had ran himself into the ground, replacing him with 'Hendo' would have got a big 'grazie' from Mancini, I'm sure.

In the final 5 minutes of normal time, the dangerous Insigne and Chiesa had ran their race and were replaced with the lesser Bernardeschi and Belotti. OK. Neither can win it in normal time, but with Italy's creative players withdrawn - followed by Verratti on 96 minutes - it SHOULD have been advantage England with FOUR subs still available to stretch and test an exhausted Italy.

Instead, Southgate's sole changed was 5 minutes before the half time in extra time, giving Grealish just 20 minutes to influence the game replacing Mount. Plus, of course, the 120 minute subs of Sancho and Rashford to take the pens.

Throw in that Jorginho should definitely have seen a straight red card for his awful challenge on Grealish, Jordan's heroics in the penalty shoot out and the unfair responsibility thrust on young shoulders thrown into the mix at the death, and Italy's margin of victory was very, very fine.

As was Donnarumma (unjustly, IMO) winning the player of the tournament award. If he truly merited the award, if England's penalty takers had done their job, then surely there was a case to be made that it would have been Jordan Pickford named as Player of the Tournament.

Fine margins, as I say.

Oh! And I have to add I can't agree with the sentiment expressed by some that England is incapable of, and does not, produce elite footballers. Yes they do. A semi-final appearance at the last WC and a final appearance at the Euros in the last 3 years is evidence of that.

The ingredient that is curiously missing, perhaps, is the one traditionally attributed to English football. Doggedness. Resilience. The ability to get through bad passages of play, keep yourself in the game, and win it when your overall play doesn't necessarily merit it.

That attribute more than anything else is what got Italy over the line yesterday, IMHO.

We had these violent barbarians roaming around here when the Romans showed up. Then the Picts who were so savage we built a wall to keep them out. The Danes, and Saxon marauders came over, raped, pillaged and took over by brutal force. Then the Vikings… then the Normans.

The people today are the descendants of a bunch of violent psychopaths from all over Europe. I imagine the nicer Vikings didn't want a ruckus so they stayed behind in Tronheim and evolved into today's socialist pacifists. The laid-back Normans stayed in France and became wine connoisseurs. All the nutjobs came over to England, although we helped export some to the USA and Australia.

Then there's respect. Sadly lacking in many people of all ages.

Generally encouraging young kids to practice using both feet is hard in larger groups, possibly due to feeling embarrassed or simply not as fun. Small or one-on-one sessions of just 5 to 10 minutes practicing can quickly encourage them to keep it up.

But winning, no matter how, is always more fun than losing. So plans to concentrate on improving skills get overlooked for results. Bring in the big, strong, fast athletes.

We are all to blame in a way. But skills, passing, teamwork is far more encouraged than it was 20 years ago. It's a long journey but it's going in the right direction.

If Ireland tried to play like that, I'd be screaming "For fuck's sake, shoot!" Supporters like me need some coaching too!

The Kane of 2 years ago would have been in the area a lot more, but Mourinho seems to have coached that strikers instinct out of him. He is still a brilliant player, but he drops too deep, thus taking the space where our attacking midfielders would usually exploit, hence Mounts ineffectiveness. A further result of this is when we have the ball in wide areas, we have no options in the box as Kane is still 5-10 yards outside the box and not making any kind of effort to get in there. Foden and Grealish look better for their clubs because they actually have someone in the box to finish their moves off.

If England persist with Kane, we need to sacrifice a midfielder for a second striker and let Kane play the way that Sheringham used to. I still think that Calvert-Lewin would be the perfect partner for Kane, Kane would drop deep, dictate some of the attacking play and arrive late into the box while DCL would be that target that is always there for the likes of Foden and Grealish.

There's was different though, more considered imo, because they knew they were getting no change out of England's three centre-backs, so they just started getting more bodies out wide, and started attacking from a different area of the pitch.

Attacking seemed to become an afterthought for Southgate, even though, if he had done his homework, this was the only obvious way to play against a team that love to dictate the pace.

He may, of course, be one of many that believe that the European ban can be laid firmly at the door of non-scousers who attended a fateful night in Brussels.

Scouse Not English?

On UEFA's very own Euro 2020 site there is a page dedicated to the ranking of ALL the players at this year's tournament.

UEFA's Official Euro 2020 Player Rankings

THE top ranked player is Italy's Marco Verratti.

The top ranked goalkeeper across all teams at #12 is...Everton and England's Jordan Pickford.

Jordan Pickford Official Stats

Gianluigi Donnarumma is only ranked #85.

Donnarumma Official Stats

Both keepers played 7 games.
Jordan conceded just 2 goals to GD's 4.
JP had 5 clean sheets to GD's 3.
JP made 16 saves to GD's 9.
Both claimed the same number of balls - 27.
JP made 7 punches to GD's 6.
GD only bettered JP on pass accuracy 87% to 73%.

Even another keeper, Belgium's Thibaut Courtois at #63 is ranked higher than the Italian.

Hey-ho. Go figure.

And that statistic is deceptive because Donnarumma was mostly playing short balls out to his defenders under no particular pressure, while Picks was distributing to teammates 40-50 yards up the pitch and triggering attacks. Donnarumma's distribution beyond 20 yards was actually pretty crappy.

Kane dropping deep seems a Southgate ploy he had him doing it in the last tournament (pre Jose at spurs) with the same "shagged out" by half time result.

Undoubtedly an effective finisher he's too bulky to be dashing backwards and forward from midfield and his limited ball control means a constant scrapping for possession when trying creative stuff in midfield.

He is like Gary Lineker one or two touches and a shot is his game anything more and he's a fish out of water. Southgate's biggest mistake was not spotting this in the last world cup.

What he could have done is play Dom in the first half for this sort of work then bring Kane on later when the opposition were tired. Bit of a nob'ead is Southgate

I didn't see any other keeper in the tournament other than JP attempt and consistently make telling and deliberately played long balls to team mates that a ball playing defender would be proud of, whereas GD's passing stats are inflated for the reasons you mention.

However, I have to ask the question - who chooses the "player of the tournament"?

The reason I ask is that whioslt those stats you quote are from UEFA, often the awarding of the accolades is passed out to the press group or some other unofficial body - who often, for unfathomable reasons, - do not go for the obvious, based on stats such as those you quote.

Guess who else does? Every single country in the world. During every minute of the day, 7 days a week.

I just read a post on here saying that they saw English violence on Twitter, then saw a scene of Italian celebrations with no drunkenness or violence.

That's not because the English are bad and all Italians are pure, it's because you're getting the 'news' you want and deserve. They are showing you what you wanted to see.

Not for one second will I defend or excuse those who racially abused our penalty takers on social media. But the actual media were pushing that story within minutes of the last kick. It wasn't because they became aware of it, it's because they went looking for it. A couple of dickheads post on Twitter and they have the story they wanted and that their followers will react to. Fake account names gain infamy and guess what? The racial abuse increases as more morons seek their 5 minutes of internet notoriety.

Today there are no stories of racism in other countries. And racism is posting pictures of monkeys on social media. It's not institutional, it's not a deep rooted problem that limits access to education, equality and opportunities. It's media clickbait because clicked links are what really matter.

Dealing with a few morons posting monkeys on a footballer's Twitter account is pretty easy. Find them, charge them. Don't give them the notoriety they are claiming. The bigger issue of media control is still at large. And I genuinely despair for our future.

Most mainstream media are treating us with disdain when it comes to analysis and reliability of events. They need the money from advertisers or, in the Beeb's case, government to even survive. They all therefore pander to the dollar/pound/rouble (yes, rouble) to endure. It's a helluva mess and I don't see a glimmer light that's gonna change things for the better I'm sad to say.

Still, it could be worse. Everton might appoint a past-it ex-Red manager to take control - hah-hah!

Both Chiellini and Jorginho should have had red cards. The England players made very little of these incidents and put zero pressure on the ref. If this were the Italians on the receiving end, then the theatrics would have drawn a world wide outcry and VAR for sure.

Southgate has a brilliant squad but only knows how to use half of it. He should have countered Mancini's changes and put the pressure on them but, just like other dinosaur managers, he hoped the strong defense would hold out.

Needless to say it paid off and, although I wasn't a great footballer, I did have one advantage over my purely right-footed friends (left leg just for standing). I also scored a few goals with my left foot, which became more accurate than my right thanks to my father's drilling.

England will never hold another major tournament until these louts are rooted out and neutralised. We embarrass ourselves with the booing, the boorish, jingoistic shite the media provide. I love my country just as much as anyone but these racist shits have no place in a modern, vibrant society.

Education. Education. Education. Death to fascism!!

Anyway, thanks for the kind words on the coaching stuff. We all do it for love of the game and to give young people a channel to learn, develop and express themselves. It brings together people who otherwise would never mix and realise they're not that different after all regardless of background. Football and other sports can be a leveller.

Don @242, good point on the Italian centre backs. We obsess about youth. "Young and hungry" is an often coined phrase on these pages. If there is one position outside of the keeper on the pitch where experience and a wise head comes into play, it is the centre backs. Give me a 30 year old established and experienced player to stand next to Ben Godfrey all day. Even in the modern game, a centre back can sustainably play at the top level into their mid 30s. And arguably, you won't see the best out of them until they hit 28 - 30.

Barry @245. Their recruitment strategy has mostly been impressive. Very interesting point about Klopp's philosophy though. How sustainable is it? I know that his last season at Dortmund wasn't the best. Eventually it runs out of steam; literally. It's like asking 100 / 200m sprinters to run a marathon in the context of several seasons.

Not jumping on the Euros bandwagon, but I do wish we'd have waited to see if Mancini was available. Hindsight wishful thinking and I suppose with a World Cup next year, he will be committed to Italy anyway.

Interesting view on Kane. That point by Kevin would suggest the reverse of what Ancelotti done with Calvert-Lewin in that he has been instructed to be less offensive and concentrate more on defensive aspects of his game and drop deeper.

Last point on width and 3 at the back. Great point on two counts. Like you Tony, I love width as it stretches the opposition and will eventually pull even the most Sean Dyche formation out of shape as they will have to come and get it at some point. I believe we are of a similar age, so grew up on it. On the defensive flip side, 3 at the back. Without the right players, it exposes the flanks to exploitation. Mancini spotted that.

I know you always tell the truth, mate, so do you think Lineker could have helped create England's first goal in a similar way that Harry Kane did on Sunday night?

Totally different players imo, and most things England did well usually came from Harry Kane being involved the other night, although I agree he's too bulky to be constantly dashing backwards and forwards, and this definitely suited the Italians in the end, because England began to lose his presence further forward, the longer the game went on the other night.

Shows you the different mentalities across the board in football, because Duncan Ferguson dragged Moise Kean off when he wouldn't stay up front and play centre-forward, whilst Southgate refused the opportunity to replace some very tired players with fresher legs. This can only mean he's either conservative by nature, or he just didn't trust the players he had on the bench. That would obviously be a massive contradiction, considering he brought them on at the very end to go and take a penalty kick.

On the subject of the football supporters. I agree that England have a shocking element of drunken dickheads. They are not even fighters or hooligans but just pure wreckless drunks who embarrass the nation constantly.
The hooligan side of things is worldwide though and I remember being at a game at the Maracana in Rio one night. Flamingo were playing a team from Chile.
I went along hoping to get in somehow but didn’t hang around for long after what I saw.
There was a mob of about 400 Flamengo supporters just smashing anyone in front of them including their own supporters taking anything valuable including clothes, trainees etc. The coppers actually shit themselves and just got out of the way. Luckily I was staying local and ran for my life.
They often fight between themselves because of drug rivalries and son in. Real crazy stuff.

Interesting call out on Linekar. For me, not the best footballer. Couldn't beat a player with the ball at his feet and I don't remember him being the best passer of the ball or having a great touch. Sound familiar to some of the criticisms aimed out our most recent 20 goal a season striker?

But, when we put the ball in behind the opposition defence, Linekar's pace and natural goal scoring instinct spoke for itself. Forwards are there to score goals, not tackle corner flags or track midfielders. Linekar's only season at Everton; 40 goals.

1985-86 was a change of tactic from Everton 84-85. Less easy on the eye in my opinion. Then to change again in 86-87 with the adversity of injury challenges demonstrated Howard Kendall's versatility as a coach and manager. Two league titles, a European Trophy, and FA Cup, a near miss on the double and two cup final runner's up appearances in 3 all too short seasons.

I don't want to make exact comparisons and not just because of the Leicester link. But there are parallels between Linekar and Vardy I think?? Vardy is probably more aggressive and tenacious. Linekar was a bit "nicer". But it was all about leveraging the pace and finishing ability by getting the ball behind the defence.

Re the footy: I think as a squad, led by a very impressive Southgate, they represented our country really well.
We got what we deserved, a place in the very late stages but Italy were the best team in it.
Pickford showed that he is one of the best in Europe and he is maturing rapidly.

Was St Joseph's also known as Bishop Gosp? I moved to Chaucer Street in the late fifties when the area was changing, old houses demolished and new, mainly flats, introduced, I went to Netherfield Road RC school, better known as The Friary, the Friary church, St.= Mary of the Angels in Fox Street was very close to St Joseph's parish, both relatively small parishes with plenty of lively characters in a very lively area.

I am with you. Education is so important not just the three R's but life education – the way you should comport yourself, respect for others, how to appreciate the arts and the good things in life.

How to be a good person.

But on the national anthem thing, England could well do with having its own, not borrowing that of the UK.

But I suspect they're shocking people outside of football too... racist, disrespectful, violent, pack animal drunks.

So why do they attach themselves to England in such numbers? It's either the team that makes them that way, or they are simply representative of the population, or they are an over-representation of the worst elements of the population.

My question is... if you're a racist, disrespectful, violent, pack animal drunk... what have you seen recently that might provide you with a vehicle for your worst tendencies?

When the media make a big deal out of a handful of dickheads on Twitter, as they regularly do, they're promoting their cause. For an event that is illegal but barely newsworthy. And the worst bit is that they know they're doing it. They're deliberately appealing to extreme views to get a reaction, because that's what gets people on their site.

I'm not one for burying my head in the sand or ignoring genuine problems, but sometimes when you overly report on what a few dickheads do, it overrides how the vast majority of us actually behave and act.

Giving it the limelight may, in the media's eyes, be seen to be highlighting a problem. But my mother's tactic of ignoring me when I was being a dick was often more effective in teaching me right from wrong. As well as the odd backhander.

I'm not promoting ignorance, but like you say, don't rise to he bait. Ignore ignorance and they don't get their platform. Promote tolerance and debate. I blame the BBC and we all pay for them!!

My Mam had the Denbigh Castle pub next door to the rear entrance of the school in Cazneau Street. Bishop Goss was actually the name of the infant section of the school.

The pub (solicitors for the past few years) and the school got bowled over recently to make way for what will be the new Police station.

We all went to school there and then onto St Greg's before me Mam gave the pub up in 1977 and we moved up to Sparrow Hall. Funny enough, we would often go to the Friary if St Joseph's was chocker.

Totally agree! Southgate and the players have been brilliant in calling racist behaviour out.

I only wish Southgate had got the team to be so direct in attack as you too are in your posts!

Tolerance and understanding of different views is my view. In football and in life.Most of us are tolerant normal people who respect that and do not like discrimination of any kind..

The media and police would be far better off not reporting this, but working with social media companies and making a big deal about it when the perpetrators are caught. Imagine if the posters didn't get any coverage for the comments, but their faces were plastered all over the media weeks later once they were caught, anyone else would think twice in future. That would be more of a deterrent than anything currently in the media. By making a song and dance about the comments, they are giving them exactly what they want.

Not sure if it's even anybody in the UK and we are a large company (70,000+ employees) but it does make it that bit more real.

John Barnes was interviewed a few weeks back about racism and he said wait till a black player misses a goal or misses a penalty and then you will see if racism is still relevant.

Mind as our US posters will be even more aware that racism is on the rise in some countries, or at best it's still the same as it's always been, just that it's not as openly portrayed as it used to be.

As for the likes of the main media sites, they will pay lip service to taking down racial comments, but all they need to do is expose the people who use their sites to publish these things.

Also, I think if I was booed for taking the knee, I would do it after the match as well as before, because it obviously still needs doing.

Thankfully, that doesn't happen. I like the fact that the taking of the knee continues and causes some such discomfort that they boo it. It means the conversation continues and the issue isn't swept under the carpet and ignored. Genuinely, if I sat at a live footy game and someone near me booed I'd be curious in a polite way and ask them why they were booing.

Tyrone Mings has come out today criticising the UK's Home Secretary for her evident hypocisy in describing, at the start of the tournament, that the taking of the knee by the England team was 'gesture politics', then yesterday being 'disgusted' at the racial abuse directed at 3 young black men representing their country.

It's worth checking out the BBC piece for two embedded videos it contains.

Tyrone Mings Rebukes Home Secretary

In the first of the embedded videos, it shows a 'good feel' story of how the community rallied around to cover the racial abuse graffitied over a distinctive wall mural to local boy, Marcus Rashford. Loads of positive, proud and loving messages to Marcus which blotted out the minority racist view. The street artist has already restored the mural to its former glory.

In the second video to young lower-league professional black footballers are interviewed. Like many others on Sunday one of them was out with his mates, viewing the game. When the penalties went tits up with 3 failures by 3 more young black men, one of them mentioned how he and his mates first thought was: 'we need to get out of here and get home safely.'

Are these the sorts of stories on racism and what non-caucasian people live with daily that the meedjah should suppress..?

Not for me they aren't. I take delight if such coverage causes 'discomfort' to others in the same way that the continued taking of the knee does.

The only site I go on is ToffeeeWeb and I go on it to exchange views with other Everton supporters, not abuse other fans, and I learn lots of interesting things about lots of subjects, get plenty of laughs and enjoy the site nearly every day.

If I was famous, I doubt very much I'd be on any site, that's why I'm asking why do they use these sites – famous people that is?

Money. They get cash when people click adds they get money for showing off branded goods etc

Personally, I think the issue is broader than racism. It relates to online bullying of all types. Someone should be able to have a social media presence without being trolled, whether its for the colour of their skin, or anything else.

CR7 Paid $1.6 MILLION Per Instagram Post

You need to work a deal with Michael and Lyndon, Dave. They're getting all your wisdom on the cheap!

Sorry for the delay in answering had a real busy one today.

Regarding the Kane and Lineker question may I answer by saying I would rather the ball be at Kane's feet OUTSIDE the box but at Lineker's tootsies INSIDE. Shit answer I know but how to definitively answer a hypothetical??

Was it Southall or Ratcliffe who said Everton went long when Lineker played because they didn't want him trying stuff he couldn't do ie play football. Therein lies my point about English players - they are lacking as all round footballers leaving them exposed at elite level. Cruyff put Lineker on the wing at Barca to get him out the way

But George Best nailed it when describing an English icon held up as the greatest of a generation by some - David Beckham

"He cannot kick with his left foot, he cannot head a ball, he cannot tackle and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right."

We just don't produce top quality players simple as that

Personally, I believe the UK to be one of the most tolerant societies I have lived in and experienced. And I've experienced some terribly intolerant ones.

Can we get better? Of course we can. No, don't ignore intolerance, but equally, don't give attention to a shouty vocal minority who thrive off said attention. In that sense, yes, ignore them. They are a minority who don't represent the majority.

I think Michael Lynch makes a valid point. It's broader than racism.

Could they prevent people from posting for 48 hours after creating an account? It might stop some of these pricks who undoubtedly created an account purely to post one message.

Could they insist on ID to create an account so they can be traced back? If it works for online bookies having to verify people by ID why can’t it work for social media.

Unfortunately a lot of these will be keyboard warriors who wouldn’t dare say any of this to peoples faces, they just get off on their tweet being in the press.

Funnily enough former RS David James made some very reasonable similar points IMO today. He said in his day, you got bags of mail with abusive letters from fans. He never expected the post office to prescreen them so he doesn't think we should solely rely on FB, Twitter etc doing the same. But he did suggest having some kind of ID verification as optional. If your account is ID validated, then you could interact with whoever. If it isn't then you couldn't so therefore you couldn't anonymously tag Rashford etc with abuse. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Full proof? No, you'll always have hackers and even "pranksters" posting on their friends accounts etc but it would be a step in the right direction.

I get your points. But, don't entirely agree in this instance. I'd say not giving press to problems does avoid things like copycat attacks, it helps reduce the chances of psychos glorifying other school shooters etc and trying to emulate them. But in this case what we have is people who by day are estate agents, PTA Dads etc but on the sly are odious racists. I say, shame them.

On the cyber-bullying, yes it's a bigger issues certainly, I totally agree. But here we have another broader issue overlapping with it: racism. So, where the two issues intertwine, I would say it deserves more attention.

I received racist abuse growing up but l didn't need that experience to know it's wrong.

Taking the knee, l am torn. The minority it's actually aimed at won't be changed by anything other than public shaming and stricter punishment.

Barry, how would you like Lineker in our team now? I think the state of the pitches kids play on has an effect on skill levels but the biggest change is the weight of the balls.

Taking the knee has now fallen into that trap with none to subtle inferences that people MUST comply or be labelled racist a notion as mindless as racism itself.

DO NOT provide your enemy with a flag to rally around which is the present state of taking the knee.

No wonder Zaha, Les Ferdinand and John Barnes amongst others are calling it an "empty gesture".

It needs stopping NOW!!

Idiots and Low lifes hiding behind the anonymity of a Social Media profile writing racist abuse at people of their own nation who happen to have a different skin colour
OR
Idiots and Low lifes who physically kick and beat people of roughly the same skin colour but are from a different nation.

Not sure which shames our nation more.

There are times when I wish I was 20 years younger and could afford to spend 3 years living in Sweden and get Swedish nationality because of my wife. Then I would never have to admit being English.

Personally and through personal experience, I've always believed in equality. So I treat everyone equal in the sense of true equality.

I took immense pride in coaching football teams with players from very diverse backgrounds. White privileged lads, white lads from similar estates to Speke (West Drayton for those who know west London), British Asians and west African boys who's parent are the strictest I've ever known! If they didn't perform at school, I would have to plead with them to let them play on a weekend and promise I'd sort them out!

It's not about ignoring a problem, It's more not making a problem bigger than it is in my personal experience and opinion.

I say this having lived in London since 2005 where the white percentage of the population hovers around the 60% mark. As opposed to Liverpool, where I was born and lived and it is more in the 90% plus mark.

We don't and shouldn't ignore intolerance. But at the same time, don't make it out to be something it isn't. I live in a multi cultural area where the is nothing other than tolerance. The BBC would have you think otherwise.

Having lived nearly 50% of my life in Italy (having married a Sardinian girl) and 50% in England, I looked at this game as a win-win, as the better side would prevail and I wanted to be entertained. Yes, my family in the UK wound me up and some Italian friends and family sort to make digs sending me messages well into the night after the match but it was all good humoured stuff.

I've always thought that reading both sides' press gives you a better, more rounded view. In the build-up to the match, there was a common belief in Italy that England would have an advantage of playing at home and the Italian team would have to play with a mentality of blocking out and counteracting the opposition and its support. This was clearly visible in the reaction of Bonucci after his goal and his comments after the final whistle about the English having to continue eating pasta.

Much had been made of the English belief in fair play but the Italians were annoyed at the booing of the Inno di Mameli (the Italian National Anthem), which they sing with gusto, and at the gestures of some English fans. Attacks on Italians after the game have also been reported in the media here. There was also a belief that the English song 'Football's Coming Home' was a stupid provocation as any Italian could tell you that football started life in Florence in the middle ages and not in England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcio_Fiorentino).

(Actually I was born in Chester and there is evidence that football was played between the city walls of the city in the Middle Aages, so whether Florence was before Chester or Chester before Florence… it doesn't matter and nobody should be worried. The rules of Association Football were written by the Victorians and the oldest club in Italy, Genoa Football and Cricket Club, and then Milan, were founded by British merchants.) All this said, it irked the Italians who held banners up at Wembley that they had 4 stars on their shirt to England's one.

Comments about Italians playacting (the video of Immobile on the BBC) was shown but Italian TV, while accepting the non-sporting behaviour of their forward, showed examples of Sterling going down very easily on a few occasions, including the penalty against Denmark, which they implied was soft. They indicated that the English press viewed foreign teams in one manner and their own Three Lions in another.

England started the game very well and had Italy on the ropes for the first 30 minutes. The Italian commentary were captivated by the ability of Kane, Sterling and (the surprise) Rice who possibly had his best game in an England shirt until he went off in the second half. Arguably the removal of him and the excellent Chiesa for Italy changed the nature of the game and meant that penalties were inevitable.

Ironically it was England who were setup like Italy and Italy more open like a typical England team. England have used their defence as a shield and have mainly attacked on the counter, as a typical Italian team would do (Catenaccio). Mancini doesn't play that way in part because of an elderly backline, in part because the players he has available are better as attackers than defenders. That said he lost his two attacking fullbacks – Florenzi in the first game and Spinazzola in the Quarter-Final.

Having watched Italy under Mancini for the last 3 years, I have seen how Insigne and Spinazzola have a natural chemistry which reminds me of Baines and Pienaar for Everton. Without Spinazzola, Insigne was not as productive as he had no one to run beyond him and provide him with the space to cut inside from the left.

However, even without the full-backs, it was clear that England's traditional back 4 had problems with Italy and their team sunk deeper and deeper (like Everton). Mancini took off a centre-forward (Immobile) but didn't automatically replace him with another centre forward, eg, Belotti, meaning that Stones and Maguire were facing much smaller but more technical players in front of them and in trying to help Phillips and Henderson were often getting in the way.

A lack of possession for long periods and a back line who were often missing tackles put England on edge and they eventually buckled. Mancini was showing up the same weakness in the English defence that he had seen with the Belgians earlier. Yes, Italy's defence were also having problems but not as much because Kane was basically playing in midfield.

Though one could argue whether Southgate started with the best eleven, he got most of his substitutes right until the last few minutes. Pickford, who the Italian press regarded as a weak link before the game, showed himself to be up to the task and his two saves in the penalty shoot-out were seen well but overshadowed by the agility of Donnarumma, who is probably the best keeper in world football and still only 22.

At the end, there was further criticism of the English players for taking off their medals straight away. This was seen by the Italians as poor sportsmanship and a reluctance to accept the defeat. Actually, an Italian friend pointed out to me that Totti and his Roma companions did the same thing in a Coppa Italia Final a few years ago.

It was also reported that Prince William snubbed the Italian President Matterella but again I think this was conjuncture as William is clearly seen on video trying to get to Matterella who is surrounded by his guests.

The racial comments of fans towards players has also been shown in the press with comments such as England are a good team with crap fans. There is also the belief that the 2030 World Cup will not be awarded to England... so BMD won't be needed any time soon.

Basically it was a great tournament and shows that, 3 years after the World Cup in Russia, football has moved on. England have got a step closer with a young squad and Italy, who failed to qualify for Russia, are back. Also the Azzurri were missing a few of their young stars through injury – Zaniolo, Tonali and Pellegrini.

Ironically as I mentioned in a previous post the Daily Telegraph before the tournament compared each country to a Premier League team. ....

If ITALY were an English team they would be…

Everton. Aristocrats of the game with a glorious past and too many recent mis-steps.

Hopefully a good omen from one set of Azzurri to another.

A quick timeline recap. Taking the knee pre-dates the murder of George Floyd and how that was taken up by the Black Life Matters movement in first the US and very rapidly globally. It started 5 years ago with the American footballer Colin Kaepernick choosing to kneel before games at the playing of the US national anthem. An individual and discreet silent protest intended to call attention to the issues of racial inequality and police brutality. He has endured extreme persecution as a result.

The practice in the Premier League started in June last year when the delayed fixtures were completed. It is NOT a political statement. It is quite simply a body of professional sports people of an extremely diverse ethic and national mix presenting a united front in quietly and discreetly opposing the perversities of racism. Just like Colin Kaepernick did. The English national team also opted to take the knee.

Ahead of the Euros in two friendly games, some fans booed their own national team for taking the knee. Following this, the UK's Home Secretary, Priti Patel, scoffed at what she described as ‘gesture politics'. She considered that: ‘football fans had a right to boo the England team for taking the knee in protest at racism' because ‘the anti-racism protest is associated with the Black Lives Matter movement and amounted to gesture politics.'

Less we forget, the role of the UK Home Secretary is primarily concerned with immigration, policing and keeping the country safe.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson just hours later refused to condemn either Priti Patel or the fans that booed taking the knee. He used similar language as Patel, saying ‘I want to see fans cheering and not booing. I am more focused on action than on gestures.'

By contrast, the England manager, Gareth Southgate, his players and the Football Association all made clear at the time that the team decided to take the knee FOR EACH OTHER rather than expressing support for any political organisation or ideology, as implied by Patel and Johnson.

In essence then, the players take the knee as an out-and-out gesture against racism and in support of each other. It was the politicians that very explicitly labelled it political and associated it with the BLM movement. Not the players, the clubs, nor the governing body.

The very phrase ‘gestural politics' as used by Patel and Johnson scoffs and sneers and dismisses what is a very passive, very brief and very discreet demonstration of unity by young adults who personally, or have team mates that, continue to be the direct targets of grotesque racism.

Quoting single examples of footballers and clubs that no longer take the knee whilst the overwhelming majority of footballers and clubs continue to do so is a very poor basis to claim the practise should now stop. Says who, and why?

Personally, I have no qualms that some fans choose to boo taking the knee. I don't assume that automatically labels them as racist. You can only discover why some are booing by asking them. And as far as I am aware, there has been no study into that.

For me, taking the knee is working as time and again it gets discussed in pubs, homes, places of study, worship, the workplace and on social media. The discussion is a very open one. And that, seemingly, makes it very uncomfortable for those who would rather not have such exposure on the subject of racism. That would not necessarily be the case if there was no taking the knee.

As for the line used by a couple of posters that ‘the problem is broader than racism'. I rather think that the issue of racism is quite a broad one in its own right, don't you?

I'm alleging that the media go shaking carpets trying to find a couple of instances, which then gives others the motivation to emerge.

Education is the long term solution to racism. And it's amazing to see what has been achieved in just a few generations.

Shorter term I agree that racism needs to be called out where it is happening.

But I don't think that's what the media is doing. They weren't looking to out racists and improve anything, they were looking to out football fans based on racist posts by a few people. Which then generates more posts. And more outrage followed by more extreme opinions and, crucially, interaction with their online presence.

English football fans are now the greatest racism issue in Europe. That's not right. Black people are over represented in just about every negative social statistic. This does very little to help that.

However, as I said, I think the wider issue in this particular context, is online bullying or trolling. Perhaps what's gone on is best described as "racially aggravated trolling". It's an area that needs proper, enactable legislation.

It's all well and good trying to catch the individuals responsible, but as Nicole Roberts from Girls Aloud said: rather than chasing the rabbit, we need to fill the hole.

Best shot-stopper I will grant you -- in fact he's one of the best I have ever seen in my life -- and he's tremendous in the air. But his distribution is absolute crap, he's not great with the ball at his feet, and nobody has any idea if he can command a defense, because at Milan he had Kjaer to do it for him, and of course for Italy he's had Chiellini and Bonucci. And now at PSG he'll have Sergio Ramos. So his leadership ability is unknown.

Give him a couple years and he may well be the best, possibly among the best ever. But not yet.

If as you claim you don't understand my last paragraph, then perhaps it is you that better needs to explain your own quoted words, not me.

It ain't me making 'a competition' out of different social issues. I've stuck to one. Racism.

There are many causal reasons as to why racism exists and manifests itself in many forms, across diverse media and in person.

I've gone on about the anthem booing. It's an English thing. They didn't even boo it in my local, just drowned it out by chanting "you can stick your Calzone up your arse". Classy.

I agree with your point on technical over graft. England's midfield had grafters but little guile. Until the English game realises that hard work alone doesn't win things, they will stay the same. It starts at grass roots, but don't start me on that (again)!!

Other nations and teams work hard. But they are technically superior. As the Italians point out, 4 stars on the shirt, like Germany. And if there were stars for Euros, another 2 for Italy and 3 for Germany. England would still have one.

Donnarumma only 22? That has surprised me.

I concur, great tournament. I really enjoyed it.

Many were linked to countries in Africa and Asia.

Still doesn't address the second point.

My view of Southgate has taken a nosedive as a result of those comments, along with the fact that he handed the responsibility for the penalties to 3 substitutes, two who had hardly broke a sweat and could not have been fully immersed in the collective of the game. Secondly, he handed the final penalty to a teenager!

Where were the experienced players, the leaders? Stones, Shaw, Sterling even Grealish??? Either they didn't step up or Southgate made very poor calls. All this talk on how his own penalty miss affected him, did he learn nothing or did he care how it could affect a 19-year-old?

Now, when the issue of missed penalties is brought up in future, Southgate will no longer be the first name on everybody's lips.

I read his description of how he felt, stepping up to take that penalty, and wonder on what basis he was putting that same responsibility on such young players starting their career rather than seasoned campaigners like Shaw, Stones and Sterling. Mind boggles.

Flippant and not aimed at you in the slightest. I understand what you mean though. I'm an advocate of balancing youth with experience. And the experienced players England had on the pitch didn't step up when it mattered, leaving the final responsibility to a 19 year old. Talk about hero to zero. I hope the lad get's over it and doesn't let it effect him too much.

I rate Grealish Peter, but he's no Gascoigne. You draw out a good point though. England lack the creativity in the centre of midfield to bother the good teams. Grealish is talented, but plays more of a wide role, better suited in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. He could have had an impact, but I think the Italian defence would have had his number. England's central midfield engine room was just that. An engine chugging along.

Until we start teaching kids different, England will continue to be technically inferior to the better international teams and just hope for the best every now and then when a few good players coincidentally come along at the same time. Look at the statistics of the major European footballing nations:

Germany: 4 x World Cup winners. 4 x runners up. 3 x Euro winners, 3 times runner up.

Italy: 4 x World Cup winners. 2 x runners up. 2 x Euro winners, 2 x runners up.

France: 2 x World Cup winners. 1 x runner up. 2 x Euro winners, 1 x runner up.

Spain: 1 x World Cup winner. 3 x Euro winners, 1 x runner up.

England: 1 x World Cup winner. 1 x Euro runner up.

And let's not forget Holland with just over a 3rd of the population of England; 1 x Euro winners and 3 x World Cup runners up.

There is no coincidence in those statistics. Until we fix it at the bottom, England (of little interest to me by the way), will continue to be the nearly team, despite their own arrogance. The talent is out there. We just don't identify it or coach it correctly.

His interview was in Italian but it has been helpfully translated for you:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/19692/12354009/leonardo-bonucci-footballs-coming-home-chant-motivated-italy-to-win-euro-2020

it's hard enough to beat top sides like Italy without giving them free motivation with this self-indulgent crap.

The Liverpool echo have wrote a piece trying to say why scousers don’t like England, but then in their descriptions of why, it’s obvious that quite a lot of Liverpudlians, have behaved in a similar way down the years, possibly even worse when you think of what happened to Man City’s coach!

Worse than the racism, imo anyway, was that these kids had been brave enough to step up and take a penalty, and will all be absolutely distraught because they haven’t scored, and will also definitely be hurting at least 1000 times more, than the ignorant bastards who have gone on line to abuse them…But with the invention of the internet, life is full of keyboard cowards, unfortunately.

It's now fricken Wednesday!!!!

I keep reading how Southgate messed up with his choice of penalty takers. But step back a moment. They practised taking penalties at every session, we were told.

Don't you think Southgate would have studied and documented the performance of every one of his team in training?

Don't you think there would have been one and only one reason why those 5 were chosen to take the penalties?

Don't you think that that reason was a very simple one: they had proved they were the best at talking penalties – irrespective of age, experience, and, yes, fucking skin colour??? So sick of this now – although what it has to do with anything here is what is really mind-boggling.

No, wait – the players themselves decided to prolong their 'empty political gesture' (that should have absolutely no place in football), along with its unfortunate racist triggering that had (no doubt) been fully explained to them. But no, they wanted to carry on making race a fucking issue at the beginning of every single game... Why?

The gesture was something imported from America in the first instance, in response to a very American problem.

This is not America. We are not American. Every indication here, right through society, is that racial integration in the UK has come an awful long way. Some remains, it's true, but as a country, we have come an awful long way.

But for some, it's not far enough. (Will it ever be far enough?) I thought the UK championed equality of the races and that's what I was brought up on – in direct and very sharp contrast to the rampant racism of our parents' generation.

No, instead of striving for complete racial equality, we are now bombared with a bizarre form of inverted racism. People talking of 'white privilege', telling us that all-black choirs somehow represent 'diversity', that any black person doing something special has to be celebrated and made into a news story...

Sorry but what the hell happened to racial equality???

So, sadly, it should have been no surprise when I woke up Monday morning and suffered them showing it again countless times as headline news, that yes, it was true: all three missed penalties were taken by black players. And utterly terrible penalties they were – especially Rashford's.

But, No, it's Southgate's fault for putting such an awful responsibility on young (black) players just starting their careers? Sorry, but that is just rubbish. The players themselves had proven they were the best – and in the end, they totally bottled it.

I didn’t realize that Grealish was that good, but the team is more important than individual flair, work-rate will always overshadow skill in this country, and until we get a manager that can combine the two, (with an equal focus on both) then gallant losers it will remain!

Let’s bring the afterthoughts on with a minute to go for penalties, no pressure boys I’ve been there myself, just listen to ex players like Shearer, who described it as the longest 40 yard walk in his life.

Penalties. Hated them. Was never confident taking them, so I can sympathise with any player who has to. And many don't want to or will refuse on the big stage when the moment comes, so some other poor soul has to pick up the mantle. The pressure at any level raises the heartbeat to say the least. No matter how much you practice, it won't condition you for the main event, especially on that type of stage. The longest walk as Tony / Alan Shearer say! You are on your own and everything goes into slow motion.

Tony, I too underestimated Grealish and wasn't totally convinced in earlier seasons. I've said before, the wife and inlaws are from the West Midlands. Mostly Villa followers with the odd Wolves stragglers and annoyingly the inevitable token Dudley kopites! So I've watched him a fair bit since he came on the scene.

He has definitely developed into a fine player and can get even better. Personally and not just family ties, I hope he gives Villa another season or 2 and continues his development. I don't see how he fits into United or City on a regular basis right now. Stay being the big fish and ensure he gets regular game time. Jack has time. Too many young players jump ship too early at the first turn of the head, when the important thing for them is to play regular.

If you are referring to my thread, please refer to #328 on why I question Southgate's decision making, plus the fact that taking penalties in practice is completely different than in front of 65,000 people. Refer to Tony 338.

As for the rest of the thread on racism, it is not relevant to the decision on who should be taking the pressurised spot-kicks.

You don't think they would have had extensive discussions about who takes the penalties?

You don't think the players who did take them were the ones who were up for it the most, and had convinced Southgate of that fact?

The pressure is there, no doubt, but that was always the case, part and parcel of the whole business. If they didn't really want to take them in the end, I'm sure they could have told Southgate and he woud have changed the list, Mr Nice Guy that he is.

But no, you're doing him down because he did his job to the best of his abilities, and you're making totally unfounded assumptions about the choices he made with far better knowledge of the players' individual strengths and abilities?

Sorry, Neil, I'm not buying any of that.

The current word on the street is that the abuse sent to the England players was overwhelmingly from abroad. Perhaps 4 posts originated in the UK.

It also turns out that the defacement of the Rashford mural didn't contain any racial abuse, just regular vulgarity.

The conflation of the racial abuse and the yobbish behaviour at Wembley is a barely subtle trick by the media but a trick nonetheless. Will anybody backtrack on it? Is Priti Patel to blame for the legions of racists posting abuse from India and the Middle-East and Africa?

As usual, stereotypes are acceptable in certain circumstances, especially if it involves pissed-up, red-faced white folk.

Any chance at all that Mings, Kane and the like will row back on their comments? Let's not hold our breath.

As Ernie stated, there is the small matter of media censorship to play for so we can look forward to many more days of hand-wringing and petitions to force the social media platforms to do what they already want to do.

It would have been hilarious if the players refused considering he’d only just brought them on the pitch. Good old Gareth, is protecting some of his players would be my own guess.

Michael, having read many of your Everton match reports, you do not spare mediocracy, lack of effort or poor decision making so it surprises me you are making excuses for Southgate.

Let’s agree to differ.

Can you answer the specifc point that Southgate had chosen the best 5 players who had proved their penalty-taking ability to him?

Or was that not the case?

Exactly my thought as I watched the pathetic efforts of the last three players. Bang the fucker in the top corner. End of.

Saka may well have been great at penalties in training, but he's never taken one at senior level. That's one hell of a first penalty to be given.

Rashford had scored 15 from 17 at club level so I can see why he got one. I just thought it was a bad decision to leave it so late to get him and Sancho on the pitch.

Even if I was playing in pub team Cup Final, I can't imagine standing on the sidelines for 120 minutes then literally my first kick of the ball is a penalty. That can't be good preparation, can it?

The penalty takers were quite correctly selected on merit... any other considerations were irrelevant and quite correctly ignored. Perhaps the old adage, "If you're good enough, you're old enough" does not apply to penalty shoot-outs?

As for the penalties, great players miss them too - Messi, Zidane, Ronaldo and even Baines. Well done to all the players who stepped up. They are all cracking players - and young Saka did a brilliant job when asked to get us to that final.

Finally, it is an absolute disgrace that that we're still even talking about racism in 2021. Lot of soul searching to do as a country.

I appreciate that they don't need to be up to speed physically for the penalties, but surely a few touches of the ball is going to help. If they'd been on for 10-15 mins, I think it would have been better for them.

Rashford has said he wasn't feeling confident when walking up, so why he went for the "stutter" approach, I really don't know.

I've said the same thing this week. There have been loads of incidents of managers bringing players on at the death so they can take a penalty.

It's not that long since the Dutch brought on a keeper to save them in a World Cup match.

I remember being at a playoff final between Palace and Leicester, and Leicester did the same thing, bringing on a keeper in the last couple of minutes of extra time, because the game was going to pens, and it definitely worked because whilst everyone was waiting to see if this bold move was going to pay off, Steve Claridge scored a goal that took Leicester into the Premier League.

Wembley Stadium, I preferred the old one if I'm being honest, but being an Evertonian, I've witnessed a lot more heartache than joy, at one of my favourite places. So come on, Benítez, go and sign some good players, and then take us to Wembley to celebrate, singing "We Shall Not Be Moved, Everton!" (Fuck England!)

Personally, I'd have gone for it a bit more at 1 nil. And I'd have gone for it a bit more in extra time. And I might have had the balls to bring Kane off once he was completely knackered.

But that tremendous bravery might also have bitten us on the arse with everyone then saying - why oh why didn't Southgate just plod his way through the final in safety first mode.

The game was lost on such fine margins - that we'd all be saying bravo Southgate mastermind for holding your nerve if Saka had scored the final penalty.

Now it's back to qualifiers and bread and butter stuff things will be different.

The next home game is Andorra so don't expect to see Rice and Phillips playing together in that one.

The only difference I guess here is that he could use 6 subs overall so had the extra option of bringing 2 penalty takers on.

My own view is that even if it's been done before a million times, it's not something I agreed with, and watching England live at Wembley in the semifinal against Denmark, I had exactly the same feelings, with my thoughts being that if England had been more positive with their team selection, I personally thought they would have blown Denmark away.

You can't argue with England getting to the final though, but you can argue that Southgate left some of his more talented players on the bench, and if he is to take the next step and win something, he will surely have a better chance, once he learns to ask the better teams a few more questions, and also have a few more answers, when the better teams begin to gradually get on top?

I enjoyed the tournament, and it's good to talk and learn, but now I'm finally agreeing with Michael Kenrick, and I think it's time to move on.

I believe it was Ray Wilson who said he had never missed a penalty kick in training and friendly games, but would never take a penalty in a league or international game as he would be too nervous.

Southgate is taking all the flack, but days before the final, players had been practicing penalty kicks, including the keeper, so he must have had a good idea who was qualified, and we are talking about players who are worth millions in the transfer market, and are considered strikers.

Take it what it was: nerves.

i had left the thread to get back to earn my living with the comment to agree to disagree but I see you posed me a question.

I will respond that, if that was the case of accepting your premise, my question is:

1. Why did he leave it so late to bring on Rashford and Sancho? He was lucky that the ball went out for a corner – otherwise, he might have been embarrassed. See also my comment of being up to the intensity of the game when taking the penalties.

2. Why would you put Sako in 5th position considering he had never taken a penalty at senior level?

That being said that if as is maintained

1. Did Jack Grealish claim he offered to take a penalty but Southgate decided otherwise?

2. Why was Jordan Henderson watching on so intently as Southgate was preparing the list if it was already decided who they were?

Just to be clear, I think Southgate has done a brilliant job but, on the penalties, he made a number of bad basic decisions.

My final word on the matter. It's all history now. Roll on, 14 August. COYB

You took the bother to return to the thread because Michael posed you a specific question and then opted not to answer the question actually asked?

I've yet to see us play at the new Wembley as I gave up my ticket(s) to my son and young brother for the 2009 FA Cup Semi-Final and Final. I went along to enjoy the occasion, ending up in a random pub down the hill from the Green Man for the semi-final and then in a bar closer to the stadium for the final. I can't remember what it was called but it was just across from a hotel on Empire Way and had 'blue' in the name and was full of other ticketless Evertonians who travelled, so it done for me!

I done the same for the other Liverpool and Man Utd semi-finals.

Next season, I need to attend inside the stadium to continue my record of having never seen us lose at Wembley!

I feel as if I am being ganged up on here. But, in response to you, I believe I did answer the question fully.

On “Or was that not the case?” – I believe I queried that assertion with re Grealish & Henderson, if takers had already been picked. If we are to ignore Henderson's curiosity or Grealish's claim that he offered to take one and the penalty takers were decided long before the night, then his execution of that decision IMO was seriously flawed.

Two of the penalty takers had no taste of the battle when expected to take the penalty and the final and potentially most pressurised responsibility was handed to a teenager who had never taken a senior penalty. Hope this clarifies my view, my opinion, but others may disagree. Their prerogative.

Definitely my last comment. Life is too short.

Certainly wasn't my intention to make you feel that way. I just felt that Michael K's view on why the penalty takers were chosen (on merit) was correct so I suppose I couldn't really grasp your argument. Perhaps I read it wrongly – that even if Saka was 5th best on merit, he shouldn't have been picked for that particular task.

So no, you haven't particularly clarified your views for me, but anyhow thanks for taking the time to reply.

You are right that respect is important to BLM. Unfortunately that respect is not extended to black people whether that is brutal slayings by the police or the disadvantages they suffer in all sections of society. Your argument sounds like a version of all lives (all nations and people) matter but it is a fact that every social indicator shows that black lives matter less than that of white lives.

Michael #335

Is BLM an empty political gesture? As Jay Wood says earlier, BLM highlights and provokes discussion on the racist divisions in society which divide us. It is a curious inversion to accuse the England players of triggering racism: they have taken their action because of racism they have suffered! They also make race an issue in every single game because it is an issue in and after every single game. Black footballers have been getting racist abuse all of this season, not just after the Euro's.

The fact that an England manager could back his players in the brilliant way that he has shows that racism may not take the form that it did in previous generations but it also highlights that it is still unforgivably here in new forms. While BLM did start in the states, it caught on world wide because of the recognition that the issues raised in the USA are the same racist issues that exist in the UK and across the world.

The importance of racial equality is that there is less equality for black people and a lack of recognition of diversity in comparison to white people. This is why we make positive efforts to celebrate black culture and achievement. If you don't like opening the newspapers everyday and being reminded of the advantages that white people have then can you imagine what it must be like to go out of your door to suffer many different forms of racism everyday?

And yes you are right that the players missed the penalties not because they were black - and they paid the penalty afterwards when the abuse they got afterward was aimed at them racially - white footballers who miss penalties are abused but not because of the colour of their skin.

We can't move on from this debate because of a background of white advantage that people find hard to acknowledge, because sport is political and racism is still the name of the game.

It’s not a fact unfortunately, a June 2021 committee paper on education for disadvantaged pupils highlighted that Roma/Gypsy and Irish traveller were the most disadvantaged in children’s education whilst black ethnic groups had more access to higher education and performed better in school than other ethnic minorities, including white British pupils.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/203/education-committee/news/156024/forgotten-white-workingclass-pupils-let-down-by-decades-of-neglect-mps-say/

The below are stats for access to Higher Education: (There are plenty of other stats on attainment, progress etc that show similar results)

The proportion of White British pupils who were FSM-eligible starting higher education by the age of 19 in 2018/19 was 16.0%, the lowest of any ethnic group other than traveller of Irish heritage and Gypsy/Roma. FSM-eligible White other pupils had a participation rate of 37.2%, FSM-eligible Chinese pupils had a participation rate of 72.8%, and FSM-eligible pupils from a Black African background had a participation rate of 59.0%.71 FSM-eligible pupils from a Black Caribbean background had a participation rate of 31.8%.

Racism exists, it’s wrong, it’s also not as bad in England as people make out and kids these days from disadvantaged backgrounds are not disadvantaged because of the colour of their skin.

Perhaps the minorities are particularly motivated to perform well in studies since this is one of the only ways to minimize or escape discriminatory work practices and racism in general. Do well in school, move someplace nicer, problem partially solved.

And rather than just throw some stats up and claim something as the conclusion please lay out the reasoning so as to avoid misunderstandings. This simply doesn't make the case you presume.

Those who are doing the racial abuse are not in a position of influence or power, if anything they tend to be as close to the bottom as you can get. There is nothing systemic or institutional about it.

On the contrary, the institutions are showering the ethnic minorities with opportunities that poor whites can only dream of. Kevin could have linked even more examples to highlight this point but I suspect you'll continue to convince yourself that it doesn't make a case.

On the matter itself, while conceding that some can be seen as individually driven due to socioeconomic factors there is little doubt that their racist tendencies are activated by the rhetoric of public figures who sit in institutions. A back and forth on specific examples of systemic discrimination is easily done. The only question is whether the source could be slandered I guess.

And honestly from an admittedly unscientific first person take I can no longer believe that racism is concentrated among the least well off.

NSNO

COYB

Not my intention.

Comments made regarding my opinion on the booing of foreign anthems which for me is also racism.