Big Nev and a Big-Hearted Conversation

La Lotta Continua!

Of course Nev was always true to himself and wouldn't hide from telling the truth so that wouldn't have gone down very well with the people who ran the club.

I love history, have studied it and always followed it. Not just Everton or football, but history in general. The American Civil War, visiting the fields around Iper (Ypres), World War 2 and Vietnam War documentaries as well as those related to the Falklands and Afghanistan, the latter which is very personal to my experiences.

The Middle East has always been a hotbed of conflict for centuries. Putting a lighter heart on it, the scene in the Monty Python film always makes me laugh. People's Front of Judea versus the Judean People's Front. A common cause. Kind of makes me think of Evertonians! We all want the same thing but have different opinions on how we think we can achieve it!

I don't mean to offend but, in my opinion, Israel should not have been created. At the time, an understandable, but emotional reaction to the awful events of World War 2. I think the best option would have been to relocate the European Jewish populations to their original homes throughout Europe rather than create a state that has antagonised the surrounding region since its existence, which has arguably led to the situation we now have.

Right… with that out of the way, onto the subject. Neville Southall.

I'm disappointed he is not more involved in the club. But then I don't think a lot of the hierarchy would appreciate his straight talking and I don't think he ever liked the limelight. A shame as he is has always come across as a straight and direct talker. Maybe that's why they steered clear!

Without doubt the best Everton keeper I've seen in my lifetime to date. The best in Europe at his peak and ours. Get him back involved. The players and certainly the keepers, would feed off him.

Best Neville moment? Most point to the Tottenham match, which was pivotal in the run in to win the league. But for me it was the save at Hillsborough against Sheffield Wednesday… an outrageous save.

Nev's truth would upset a few in the heirarchy. In hindsight… fuck them. Nev would have kicked a few arses. We definately would not be in this mess.

Relocation to their original family homes was difficult, to put it mildly.

My favourite Nev moment was early days, 1982 (I think) v Spurs. Spurs fans in the park end celebrating a Garth Crooks goal as he went round Nev to an open goal.

I was stood right across in the Paddock and, to my amazement, Nev lying on the ground and somehow reaching out to stop the ball as Crooks was about to shoot.

Another interesting point is that a lot of the weapons used by the Israelis during their conflicts with native Arabs were supplied by Nazis immediately after the War.

The weapons ceased to be "Nazi" when the Nazis were defeated... then they were German-made weapons.

The first time that Israel made such a decision was in 1949, when Mamad, the Foreign Ministry's intelligence service and the predecessor of the Mossad, recruited the Nazi Walther Rauff, one of the vilest Holocaust perpetrators then alive and the inventor of the “gas vans,” mobile gas chambers in which thousands of Jewish men, women and children were choked to death.

Rauff, a former military adviser in Syria, agreed to sell information on his former employers. The besieged Jewish state, faced with existential threats from its Arab neighbors, could hardly be picky about its intelligence assets.

https://newlinesmag.com/review/the-nazi-fugitives-hired-by-israel/

It isn't "interesting" that the Israelis might have bought Nazi weapons. You are insinuating that Israel is Nazi?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/israel-won-its-independence-using-nazi-weapons-yes-true-181282

"I don't mean to offend but, in my opinion, Israel should not have been created. At the time, an understandable, but emotional reaction to the awful events of World War 2. I think the best option would have been to relocate the European Jewish populations to their original homes throughout Europe rather than create a state that has antagonised the surrounding region since its existence, which has arguably led to the situation we now have."

Alan #5 only hints at the misdirection of this statement. The simple fact is that most European Jews had no original homes to return to. Those who tried found their previous homes occupied by strangers with no incentive to return the property, often protected by neighbors and governments who had betrayed the Jews to the Nazis.

Jews had been hated in many of these areas before the war and were even more despised on returning. And many returnees were murdered with no consequences for the murderers. You might Google the 1946 Kielce pogrom. There was an excellent article about it in Smithsonian Magazine a couple of years ago. It happened in Poland, where 90% of 3.3 million Jews had been already been slaughtered and a few tried to go home.

In Rumania, where my mother's family originated, a community of 750,000 Jews was reduced to a remnant that could fit neatly into the Park End with seats left over. The Jewish town where my great-grandfather was born, near Craiova, had been simply wiped clean and bulldozed. My grandparents found no sign of it in 1959, just an empty field.

The surviving Jews' homes were gone. Their families were gone. Their communities were gone. There was NOTHING for them to go back to, and they were unwelcome elsewhere in Europe.

If you really "don't mean to offend" then you should grab some books about post-Holocaust Europe and the creation of Israel, and widen your scope of history.

With regard to Palestine, mankind has not progressed far, if at all.

We are all still in tribes divided by boundaries and religion.

A bit dry, brilliantly researched, and thoroughly depressing. As I'm certain you'll be aware, European anti-Semitism was not invented by psychopathic bam pots like Himmler and Heydrich. The Nazi death squads had plenty of willing helpers throughout Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine etc.

Same fellow who allegedly, pushing 40, had an affair with a teen then ended it when she was pregnant and claimed it was his. Then patched things up with the wife before walking out on her and his 10-year-old kid right before Christmas.

Great goalie but his pious criticism of anyone and everyone on various moral and political issues is a bit rich.

Also, Israel was not chosen at random as a home for the Jews in 1948. As a people, they have been talking about a return to their ancestral homelands for generations. In fact, the final line of the Haggadah, which is the book read by Jews during Passover, is "Next Year In Jerusalem". The Haggadah dates back many hundreds of years.

War is a terrible thing but I think it is important to remember that well over a thousand Jews were murdered, raped, and kidnapped on 7 October, with bodies being paraded around Gaza while crowds spat and urinated on them.

They were mostly living in communities near the border which were made up of peace-loving, left-wing families who were doing their best to bridge the divide between Palestinians and Israelis before they were the victims of the worst Pogrom since the Second World War, sadly at the hands of the same Palestinians they'd reached out to.

Finally, not everyone seems to appreciate that Israel's population is made up of not just Jews but also Israeli Arabs, or Palestinian citizens of Israel, who make up around 20% of the electorate and have the right to vote, to health care, to education, to jobs, the same as any other Israeli. In fact, the third largest political group in the Israeli government was formerly known as The Joint List and is made up mostly of Arabs.

There are two peoples with a claim on the land formerly known as the British Mandate of Palestine, and hopefully in time they will live peacefully side by side. Sadly, that's unlikely to happen in my lifetime.

The media and politicians often try to make us pick a side, but there are too many innocent casualties on both sides for that to be fair.

And I was equally as uncomfortable reading Danny O'Neill's astounding 'historical perspective' on Israel, so well done to Mike Gaynes also for giving us a much broader and far more intelligent historical perspective.

And I suspect we all conveniently forget about that little anecdote from Kieran @16 that I'm sure no-one wanted to read either. Kinda casts the wrong shadow on the stellar goalkeeping career of Big Nev.

Be nice if we could just stick to the football…

An internationally agreed two-state solution was proposed when the Brits shipped out in 1948 and the Jews reluctantly agreed because land allocation was less than expected and they had nowhere else to go. Everywhere had treated them like shit but it didn't matter because the Arabs flat-out said "No".

In 1948, after British administration, the Arabs started a war and lost. Since then, they've had a go 14 times with a playbook consisting of one play: "We can't win but western sympathies will impact Israel so they'll stop and we'll go again in a few years time”.

The Israelis have twigged to that bollocks and said “that shit stops right now”. Hard to blame them when you look at the full story.

Everything I've ever heard about this conflict is the other way round, ie, that the Israelis won't agree to a two-state solution. Well, you learn something every day.

However, your post at (3) has to be one of the most ill-informed I have ever read on ToffeeWeb. Michael (19) hinted at my thoughts in that sometimes it is better to stick with the football and EFC.

By nature I'm suspicious of populist sentiment generally because it feeds off vested interest media relying on people not doing their homework.

"Free Palestine" is one of those sentiments.

Not only did the Arabs say No to a two-state solution – they vowed to destroy the state of Israel.

You never hear this vital context regarding the Middle East; the propaganda is matched only by the support of the "dangerous man-made climate change" canard.

Today, generally speaking, the two-state idea is wildly popular in the rest of the world (US, UN, EU etc.) and wildly unpopular with the peoples who live there, on both sides.

Alan #15, not familiar with that one but my current massive reading project is A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson, which discusses the often-fraught relationships between the Jewish people and the rest of the world going back to the first mass deportations of Jews, the Babylonian Exile in 700-600 BC. The history is indeed ancient. And repetitive.

However, that had a lot to do with the fact the majority of land, and better land, was given to Israel and that the Palestinian population was at the time larger. But obviously it is a complicated situation that gets more complicated with every action.

I'm sorry but that post of yours reveals a catastrophic failure of understanding of the post-war situation and the histories, environments, and attitudes of those times you claim to understand.

Do you know that countless numbers of Jews were killed when they returned to what you call their "original homes". Your fecking "policy" sounds like forced deportation. How would it have proceeded in your view, Danny? What if someone had refused to in your word go "home"? Would they be stateless like the hideous medieval ethnic Christian propaganda of the "wandering Jew" who roamed the earth with no home?

You might read the odd book and watch the History Channel but, as a professional historian who does this for a living, I hope that you stick to footy in future and don't take us up your historical, political, and military diversions that you often do on threads where they have no place at all.

Also, I admire Neville as our greatest keeper in my lifetime but, and maybe more importantly, how he has conducted himself since he hung his gloves up and the causes and courses that have been dear to him. Someone who genuinely cares about others whether the root issue is inequality, biology, or family.

A true legend on and off the pitch.

"Be nice if we could just stick to the football…"

So why did you contribute to the "off-topic" and not dash to the delete button as you normally do?

I have a lot of admiration for Nev for several reasons.

However, because I have crossed swords with the editor in the past, it wouldn't surprise me if this post is binned.

I've never met him, and I think that's probably a good thing (they say never meet your heroes and all that) but I've followed him for a few years on Twitter and he's absolutely a fine human being who fights for a number of causes which I happen to agree wholeheartedly with.

The greatest goalkeeper that ever lived, nevermind the greatest Everton keeper in my view. And still now he stands his ground and fights for those less fortunate or those who are marginalised for one reason or another. My admiration for him as both a goalkeeper and a human being are sky high.

One glance through the article – heartwarming though it might be on one level – would have indicated it was absolutely certain to rapidly degenerate into a thread of this nature.

So yes, I would have pressed the delete button before it saw the light. But the decision for us to publish it had already been made.

The Everton connection is tenuous in my view; the story isn't really about Everton, and whatever benefit there might have been from publicising it is negated by what inevitably follows.

John @32,

I think there are some very good reasons for this website to stick with that policy as best we can, even at the cost of causing you personally untold anguish in the past. I'd have hoped you would've been able to get over the disappointment by now and move on… although it seems perhaps you do still harbour a grudge?

In 1290, England became the first state ever by law to initiate a pogrom against its own Jewish population. Edward 1 seized and stole everything they owned from all of them. Many were killed – all the rest expelled for centuries.

And so it went on against Jews thereafter (and long before), all over Europe and then beyond.

The Israel of today obviously has a tiny population compared to the Islamic population all around it for hundreds of miles, so, as truly horrible as the 7 October atrocity was, Israel is always likely to seek massive redress in blood when their own citizens are murdered.

It's appalling as to the current extent though, with so many wholly innocent Gazans being exterminated. That's what I believe Nev and others to be saying.

If there is a genuine hope for peace, notions of blame and hurt are as unwelcome as mass exterminations.

Sure, we must never forget, but to go on repeating the (mis)behaviours of history is frankly insane.

As mad as a box of goalies nearly!

I think you misunderstood my point.

I was just suggesting that in the benefit of historical hindsight, there could have been a better outcome based on repatriation.

Anyway, back to Neville. My favourite moment?

Forget the saves.

I can't remember the match, but invading the pitch at Anfield and going towards him as he made his way to the tunnel.

He swatted me out of the way like a fly and I was on my arse!

I've been to Israel several times and have friends there.

A beautiful country and I have Rosary Beads from Bethlehem on the West Bank to compliment those I have from the Vatican.

I have no issue with Israel. I could go on about their approach, which is disproportionate and inappropriate for their objective, but I won't bore you.

If any of you do get the chance to visit, I recommend Haifa.

My point is one of reconciliation.

And yes, I do know my history.

I strongly doubt that you have encountered a historical source in your studies that even remotely suggested that Holocaust survivors could have simply returned home to Eastern and Central Europe. If you have, I'd very much like to read it.

Alan (15) mentioned a book, Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder, I googled it and the reviews it got and read a bit of what the author wrote about mass killings before, during and after the Second World War in Europe.

He offered solutions that excluded revenge and an eye for an eye but more of trying to understand Nationalism and how people want to live together, where they want to live and how they want to live their lives, definitely not by being ordered where to live.

I only read bits and pieces but intend to get the book and try and learn more about not just the conflict in the Middle East but how Jewish people have been treated throughout history.

Thanks for the tip, Alan.

Examples are plentiful, the English obliterating the Welsh and Scottish and finding meaningful peace. Unlike Ireland where beyond the Cromwell episode it's all been a tad arsey and the relationship still festers (in parts) 400yrs later.

Ditto the US shoving it up the Redcoats to gain independence, we Brits took it on the chin and didn't have another go and as a result now get on great.

Then there's Germany and France - absolutely hammered by us and allies but we buy them a pint now.

The middle east has had plenty of conflict but not a last man standing war to lance the festering boil. I reckon that time has now come

A good movie on the topic would be 1945. It's Hungarian language but with subtitles.

We differ on this one. You may be correct, I just wonder if it could have been handled differently as now we have a horrendous situation in the region.

By the way, I worked for several years for a company Headquartered in Romania. I went there many times. Bucharest mostly but my favourite was Iasi, pronounced "yash". Beautiful city.

We learn lessons from history. After WW1 we punished Germany which eventually led to the rise of the most evil regime ever known and WW2.

The destructive and indiscriminate tactics of Israel are totally out of order and not the way to fight a terrorist organisation. That is for the record.

Meanwhile, back on track, get Neville back to Goodison Park.

Thanks largely to Genial Joe Stalin, for example, Poland almost literally moved west. Millions of displaced Germans had to move west, out of modern Poland. Total chaos.

Never a chance in hell of Jews moving back to their homes in Eastern Europe.

Enjoy the book, Dave, although "enjoy" is not the right word.

They all need to learn from him, for the good of a still evolving mankind we all want to improve - unless you're in your own mind "deeply religious" regardless of history or the consequences of such obvious carnage that's repeatedly derived, for many centuries, from such a one-eyed (yet devout......really!?) outlook.

Mandela showed enormous personal forbearance to his cruel adversaries when he took charge of South Africa, and yes I know that SA is still not wholly easy with itself, but carnage-by-government is no longer the norm there.

Northern Ireland and Ireland, for centuries beforehand cut to ribbons by governments on Protestant/Catholic grounds, is similar, and again I know it ain't perfect yet, but please let us all see that individual humans will, inadvertent as it may seem at the time, improve hitherto tangled knots of ancient hate and malice.

It's not wishful thinking, but it needs folk to be loud.

It's GOOD, and we've all witnessed it in action in our lifetimes.

You are not an expert on history Danny. You have at best a layman's understanding picked up from scattered books and TV. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way, but most people who enjoy history like this do not proselytise and claim to be - what, I'm not sure? - truly and fully rounded learned.

Your suggestion which you continue to trumpet is quite frankly, disgusting and shows no understanding of this history. Repatriation, you sound like a Tory home secretary Danny, but in this case we know for a fact that many Jews who went in your words "home" did in fact get killed. This was pointed out to you, but you still stick to it.

I also notice that you didn't answer the questions I put to you. Would you like to do so please.

Your lightness of tone is a tad surprising. From the mocking 'Fuming Paul" to 'Anyway, back to Neville".

I don't think that in this matter of history you are as smart as you think you are Danny. The alternative is that you actually believe in your words that Jews should have been "repatriated" after the war and after the camps and pogroms that took place against them in their fecking homelands, the same places where you think they should been been forcibly sent against their will.

Unbelievable.

So, you would like there to have been no Israel at all, you think that Jews should have been sent back to their homelands. What if they didn't want to go there Danny, to the places they fled from? What is your suggestion for that situation? I'd be interested to know and it's something that you need to answer.

You seem to have little inkling of the impact of what your selective smattering of history has had here for some of us Danny.

Read Mike's reply to you. He is 100% correct. I don't believe for one second that you have seriously studied this stuff because if you had there is no way you would have mentioned forced deportation unless your politics is of a particular sort.

I was simply suggesting that it could have been an idea to reintegrate people to their original communities. An option. In the post war era, there was anger against the Germans, which literally lasted for decades. They were stereotyped as all being fascists. Similar to when all Irish people were tagged with the stigma of being terrorists.

Now we are allies and friends. The way we handled Germany after WW2 was polar opposite to the punishment handed out after WW1. They were rebuilt, at significant cost, to be reintegrated into Europe and eventually become the leading power on the continent.

I revisit Germany just about every year as I've lived there. Interesting dynamic is that for years, they were almost ashamed to fly their national flags, but gradually gained confidence. But then they are a nation of 16 federal states, each with their own parliaments and certain regions (Bayern/Bavaria) have their unique identity. I often refer to them as the German Scots. As you enter, the sign states "Freistaat Bayern". Free State of Bavaria.

Great people the Germans and a great place to play football with the facilities they have right down to grass roots level, even in small villages.

Anyway, in my experience, you always consider three courses of action before making a decision on the plan. I'm presuming that was the case when the Allies where making their decision. They went for a Jewish state, which at the time was probably the right decision.

I do not oppose the right of Israel to exist, and to reiterate, a country I have been to and have friends there who I am in contact with. It's just a thought I've always had. The whole Middle East is a tinderbox, caused, in my opinion, by Britain and France calving up the Arab lands after World War 1. Literally drawing lines in the sand.

Iraq, if you've been there, is not a natural country. Shia Muslims in the south, who culturally and religiously have more in common with Iran. Sunnis to the North. And then the whole Kurdistan issue. A nation (not a nation state) that Britain and France decided to calve up and leaves parts of it in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria.

Afghanistan, where I spent a significant chunk of my life, is a false country of many different cultures, people and languages. And now we have Yemen. Similar.

I have not claimed to be an expert in history. I have a keen interest in certain eras that I have read into. I've visited former concentration camps and it is a very sobering and moving experience.

As are the battlefields around Flanders.

Despite some of the experiences I've had, probably the least dangerous, but most upsetting was seeing the destruction of both buildings and communities in the former Yugoslavia. All divided by culture and religion. The mostly Catholic Croatians, the Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslim Bosniaks. All complicated as they were scattered around the former territory.

Bosnia in particular was complex. Sarajevo was an absolute shell of a city. Seeing the shell of the former site where Torvill and Dean won their Olympic triumph turned into a British Army Headquarters and full of military vehicles was something to see.

And going back to Southall. Wasn't that the original theme of Simon's article? I don't mind going back to Neville Southall MBE, a player I watched just about every week during my teenage years. I believe he holds to prestige of having played the most games for Everton, but correct me if I'm wrong. Get him back involved in the club.

Call it wriggling if you want, Paul. Give me a shout when you are next at Goodison and I'll buy you a drink.

I don't believe you owe anbody an apology, quite the opposite in fact IMHO.

In all your time of posting I can't recall you ever having a go or being supercilious towards anyone, either when making your point, or responding to another's.

Others, again IMHO, could do well to take a leaf out of your book.

ps:. No drink necessary here. :-)

In Europe, we have let millions of people that actively hate us settle within our borders with no ill effects, so why is more pressure not being put on Israel's government to truly represent Israeli values?

Nothing compensates for the sight of foreigners climbing all over statues of our ancestors more than the joy of having a falafel delivered to my house when I feel like it.

No offence to our US brethren. I have property out there, have served alongside US counterparts and been to 30 of the 50 states since 1998, both on personal holidays and professionally (military and commercial).

Despite Israel's right to retaliate, which I don't dispute, they have gone about it the wrong way.

This should be a more targeted operation by their Special Forces. Not indiscriminate bombing using WW2 tactics in 2024.

Great isn't it. A Neville Southall thread turns into PM's Question Time! Only on TW although I'm probably one of the main offenders!

Neville. Come on and get down to Goodison Park!

Six million Jews died, and those who survived the concentration camps really didn't want to move back to live with those neighbours who had at best ignored their plight, and at worst collaborated in slaughtering their families on an industrial level. Many countries, post-Nazi, didn't automatically become safe for Jews; the anti-semitism persisted.

Also, as I have previously posted, the majority of Jews in Israel are not European, but have their roots in the Middle East and North Africa. They were also subject to pogroms and hatred, particularly post-1948, and had to flee to Israel, leaving everything behind in countries like Iraq and Yemen.

It's complicated, as they say.

Read my points above. You always put a few options on the table. I am actually a supporter of Israel. Just because I am questioning something doesn't make me obsessive.

I am more obsessive about the existence of Liverpool Football Club.

Anti-semitism persisted in elements of our own political parties until recently.

North London has a large Jewish community that is fully integrated.

It is a complicated situation, Michael, and as many who have travelled to that region as well as other parts of the world will testify.

Northern Ireland (South Armarch & West Belfast) back in the day was similarly complex. But the majority of the people were fine. Same in Helmand Province.

Obsessive? No, just having a view. I'm not going to change history, but it doesn't mean I can't comment on it as you can.

You are one of the most well mannered, considerate, enthusiastic posters on here and people should cut you a bit of slack.

Yes, a state of Israel had to be formed, the poor buggers had been hammered from pillar to post the world over and, while other options were explored – Uganda was even considered – virtually uninhabited and barren. Through ingenuity and hard graft, they made the land productive and at last a homeland beckoned.

The conflict reaches greater levels because historically Jews in the area were classed as "Dhimmi", more or less second-class citizens, yet now they were making a go of things at an equal level.

It didn't go down well and the Arabs kept getting stuck in until the Jews organised their own defence troops which was a disaster for the Arabs. The Israelis were quick learners and become very good fighters.

Since then, it's been a cycle of lower-scale confrontations with the 7 October incursion looking like the final straw. The Israelis have taken their gloves off now and we'll soon find out whether "kill or cure" really works…

A two-state solution would only be possible if and when Hamas and Fatah, or whoever represents the Palestinians, recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist, as mandated by the United Nations.

Roger. I don't disagree. It's almost a non-negotiable position on both sides, hence what kicked off this recent escalation that Israel are dealing with badly and responsibly.

I agree about no two-state solution that I once favoured. So there should be an end to apartheid (and genocide) and a unitary state where Palestinians have a vote.

No accident South Africa took Israel to court: they know about apartheid….

Just notice Barry's intriguing take on the Nakba: I suggest you read the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe on this.

Then you encourage others by saying it is just debate. By failing to understand the criticism you've let us down like a certain TW Live Forum performance.

As with anything online. It's interpretation.

I know what I mean.

I think I know what you mean as well and, well, it was mean.

No prejudice in me whatsoever.

On the basis of 2 sides to a story "the Nakba" is a classic example of choosing a view that suits. Is it as simple as Israelis running riot and chasing Arabs out of their homes and villages never to return or is there a bit more to it?

So basically you are saying I should back down because I've had a different opinion from you and others?

I debate politics and football with many friends and family. We don't always agree and often argue. That's life.

Tell me you don't?

It is a contentious subject. Presuming you read the subsequent comments and have been to the region (I have), I'm guessing you might understand it more.

But blinking flip – there are some sanctimonious views being expressed here today.

The idea that Israel is the only safe place for Jews is very depressing, and, as a lifelong opponent of anti-semitism, one I reject.

Alan (77) — if opposing genocide is sanctimonious I plead guilty as charged…

I googled that film 1945, it got great reviews. The film is about two Jewish men who return to a Hungarian village after the Second World War and the effect it has on the Hungarian villagers who did the dirty work for their German masters.

It is available on Netflix apparently, I'll do my best to get it on my TV but, knowing my technical ability, it might be 2045 before I get to watch it… that could be too late – I'll be 105 then!!

How many remember the dates of the Israeli-orchestrated massacres at the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila? September 1982, in case you have forgotten.

I don't blame you for forgetting or even not knowing about them. Some things it seems are less important to us in 'the west'. Shame.

Does he often do these Q&As and if so, how do I find out about his next one? I'd love to meet him – he's a massive hero of mine.

About the “other stuff”… I haven't a clue, so I'm saying bugger all!

UTFT

The few surviving Jews you say should've been “relocated” to their original homes? Which ones? The East European “homes” where they were persecuted and despised for centuries? Denied basic human rights and were “encouraged” to leave.

Have you ever heard of The Pale, or the pogroms of the Tsars? The Black Hundreds? The Cossack slaughters every fucking Easter after worshipping Christ and downing copious amounts of vodka?

Do you know that every Jewish boy from the age of 18, and sometimes younger, was made to join the Tsarist army for 25 years? Many of them never to return alive.

Do you know the extent of gentile collaboration in the Holocaust from the active collaboration of the French gendarme to the Arajs Militia in the Baltic states? The Germans would never have been able to murder 6 million Jews without the active and passive collaboration of good Catholics and Protestants, FYI.

Have you heard of the Kielce massacre in post-war Poland and the many other massacres of Jewish survivors by their Polish, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian etc… neighbours after the war ended?

Have you heard of the Evian conference of 1939 where the world closed its doors to persecuted Jews? Or the MS St Louis which was denied docking in the USA, Canada and Cuba?

What about the Arab riots in “Palestine” in 1936 when Jews were massacred and the British authorities looked the other way?

I could go on and on and on but your History Channel and comic book (Victor, Hotspur, Hornet?) knowledge would undoubtedly overwhelm me. And out of respect for my grandparents who had to flee their “homes” in Russia and their siblings who were shot and thrown into mass graves

I will refrain from further comment as these types of ignorant observations make my blood boil as it's personal and you will never understand the pain it causes.

Never again.

Oh, and finally. Read your bible. Jews were in Israel thousands of years before Christians and Muslims so where the hell, in your esteemed opinion did we come from? Mars?

It's worth the effort – a very simple but powerful movie.

Yes, reading about it, Kieran, it sounds like a very good movie, I hope I can get it on.

I have a free Netflix account I've never used... like Dave, I'm less than technically fluent!

Claude Lanzmann's epic documentary, Shoah, is the definitive, imo, work on the Holocaust.

But isn't that drifting into conspiracy theory?

The idea being Israel accepted the 1947 partition plan and effectively the two-state solution as part of a master plan to annex the entire region!!

If so, why haven't they done it?

Loads of opportunities given the numerous times they fended off Arab aggression; I just don't see it…

At nearly 72 years of age, I have been in admiration of what earthlings have accomplished. The list is never-ending. But vile and evil destruction of each other I cannot comprehend. That list is never-ending.

A doctor friend of mine told me that everybody has these traits in the brain. His wish was one day science will be capable of destroying the evil side. For the present, evil will always be here.

We will destroy this earth. No winners. Sorry for the doom and gloom from this old codger. I really fear the future. For the children. Take care.

In retrospect, the Everton connection probably isn't strong enough to warrant full editorial billing and, ordinarily, it might belong on the General forum but, thanks to this strange winter break experiment, it is very quiet on the football front, this is an important geopolitical issue that dominates the news headlines on a daily basis and, at the end of the day, this is a community as much as it is an information resource. As ever, if a topic doesn't interest you, just click away. It's that easy.

I also published the piece as-is despite my reservations about its one-sided perspective on the conflict because it presents the impacts to football of Israel's campaign in Gaza, regardless of whose side you're on. I knew as well that the arguments over the politics of the situation would get hashed out in the ensuing comments from readers.

The situation in Gaza is dreadful but that was inevitable the moment Hamas executed that horrific attack on 7 October. As both a historian of the Jews' plight and as someone who treasures democracy and traditional Western liberal values (while also having misgivings over some of the current tactics being employed by the IDF and the general bent of Netanyahu's regime), my support broadly lies with Israel and my views are echoed to a large degree by Barry Rathbone's comments.

(It should also be said that I'm also hugely sympathetic to ordinary Palestinians who have been pushed from pillar to post for the past 75-odd years, used as a pawn and generally either been exploited or ignored by the Arab nations that seem more concerned with destroying Israel than looking after "their own".)

The "coloniser/occupier" narrative against the Jews in Israel that is pervasive on social media at the moment – framed as everything must now be around the victim/oppressor paradigm – frustrates me no end. There is no demographic on earth with a greater claim to Israel than the Jews; it goes back millennia.

Much of the land they "took" in the 1920s was purchased, sold to them in many instances by Arab landowners who had bought it off their own people on the cheap, and it was the worst land in the country. They drained the swamps, irrigated the scrubland, cultivated the Jaffa orange trade along the way, brought prosperity for Jews, Arabs and Christians alike, drew in Arab settlers from the region and, for a while, everyone got along.

There's a long and complicated history after that, particularly between 1947 and today, with plenty of blame to go around (attacks on Israel by neighbouring states, failed peace processes and a point-blank refusal by Arabs to accept the state of Israel, Israeli expansion into the West Bank, the rise of Hamas, etc and all the way up to 7 October. Interestingly, one of the most nuanced and laudable takes on this whole issue from the football world came from that blowhard, Stan Collymore (of all people!). As is always the case in war, sadly, it's the innocents who bear the brunt of the misery, death and destruction.

I think by your comments in post 90, you are saying in hindsight you should not have given it the green light. As you rightly say, this was always going to descend into heated debate.

Now we are used to heated debate on ToffeeWeb, but it's nearly always about football. But when you post anything with religious connotations, then reasonable argument goes out of the window.

There are plenty of platforms for people to air their points about the situation in Gaza, but I don't think ToffeeWeb is the right place for religious debates. I hope that you and Michael, who do a terrific job, make an editorial decision that anything with religious connotations will no longer be posted.

We should all get back to the football here….

As I always say, though, there is nothing making you read either the article or the comments.

Larry (in relation to #67), words matter. It's not "genocide". Genocide has a very specific meaning and the way it's being thrown around at the moment in the context of Gaza dismays me. The Holocaust was genocide. Rwanda 1994 was genocide. Gaza is not even close to genocide at the moment.

As for Pappe, Shlomo Sand, Finkelstein etc….

Sorry guys walked into a hornets nest on this post, I'm going all Switzerland and staying nutural.

Holgate
Keane
Baines
Vlasic
Ramirez
Lookman
Tosun
Mirallas
Niassee

Or Baines, the only one who justified his purchase

Great call on "genocide" I'm struggling to think of a more misrepresented word in any sphere. It's a clarion call for earnest ignorance.

People may get confused with Niasse.

Ramirez was the only one of the above who failed to score in Marco Silva's first game in charge in the 22-0 win v ATV Irdning.

At first glance and without checking. I thought it was Baines because he was signed during the Moyes era. But your version is much funnier.

I wish I could get hold of the same data, because I’m pretty certain that I could make the same allegations against quite a few of these modern day referees, and not to mention that lying bastard, who is now in charge, with his insinuation that it was only the Everton crowd, who ever got to him, although he nearly lost it at Stoke City, as well🤦‍♂️

https://tomkinstimes.substack.com/p/detailed-analysis-the-alarming-abnormal

The attack by Hamas on Israel on 7 October was absolutely wrong and barbaric, the retaliation since and supported by the western world still happening now in my opinion is worse.

How Hamas were able / allowed to infiltrate the IDA intelligence and defence on this day is quite alarming - what happened here is another huge question full of conspiracy theories to come.
Israel will not defeat Hamas by attempting genocide (in my opinion).
Israel should stop their massacre of the innocent immediately.

Last quick one, what was unusual about Darrocott and Robnson in the 77 league cup final replay at Old Trafford, nice easy one for you all.

Or they both missed the fcuking ball for Villas winner. 🤬

..........I'll get me coat.

On one of the prior off topic points. I knew Himmler in 1940 planned to deport all of the Jews to Madagascar but the plan was contingent on Britain surrendering so they could use navy ships and not face navy ships en route. Consequently, they developed the final solution. What I didn’t know until yesterday thanks to further research after this thread was that Himmler was reviving a plan Poland had created in 1937. They even sent a delegation to Madagascar but determined it was futile as logistically they could only accommodate thousands rather than millions of Jews. What a world we live in. Now the AFD in Germany want to deport non Germans. Some in Israel want to deport Palestinians to Congo. 10 years ago France deported thousands of Romany people to Bulgaria. You’d think by now anyone would realize every race, religion, ethnic group is the same in that they all have decent people, all have some nasty people. This whole “expel this group” is something a five year old would be embarrassed to come up with as a solution to societies ills and yet it keeps happening.

How old are you Kieran?

Haha poor phrasing though unfortunately my Mum who’s Polish/Jewish according to ancestry.com is related to Herman Goering. 😬

Thanks for taking that in the intended spirit Kieran 👍🏻

Haha no worries mate Goering was a hypocrite his step Dad was Jewish and his brother helped a bunch of Jews escape Vienna. Where my Mums family where from — Bromberg — was very diverse and integrated — at the time.

Until they do find a way to come to terms with them though, it seems to me that peaceful human co-existence between various faiths/factions will remain a far-off dream.

And I don't want to seem trite but 50% of my blood family are Scottish, for centuries. In 1745 many of them were literally slaughtered at Culloden and survivors forcibly evicted overseas on account of the powers-that-be in our country at that time.

Yet my Scottish family always vote to remain in the UK - not the isolation propounded by the Scottish National Party - but by Christ don't ever decry any one of them as failing their murdered forebears by doing so. They don't forget history, but respect the fact that alternative views have their place in civilised progress, civilised progress being beneficial to us all.

It's anything but easy though - obviously - see posts above.

Terry Darracott really looked after me and reassured a very nervous me when I had my trials at Bellefield before sending me out to the land of the giants. I was slight and small at the time and although I grew into a 13 stone 6 footer, I didn't do my growing until late teens. He told me not to worry and just play football.

Sadly it was not meant to be but he was a genuinely nice person and very passionate about football and Everton.

I don't agree with a fair amount of it, but that is a good post. I also very much appreciated Lyndon's knowledgeable and thoughtful posts and the let's wait and see if Gaza borders one day on genocide.

And I've just noticed my spelling mistake. ** reference to Terry Darracott is what I meant!!

As usual, I'm going to strongly disagree with Brian H and others who believe that ToffeeWeb is no place for politics, religion and other societal flashpoint debates.

This is a site made up of Everton fans, who are by definition intelligent, informed, erudite, passionate and of fine character and good taste (okay, with a few minor exceptions), not to mention extraordinary physical attractiveness at all ages. Nobody better to have a debate with.

And as I've said before, in 18 years on TW I've learned an extraordinary amount about history, religion, politics, music, literature, the UK education and medical systems, travel, food and of course ichthyology here -- all of it in the context of discussions and debates that began with football and veered wildly off the rails.

My bookshelf, my pantry, my personal philosophy and the iTunes on my phone have all been enriched by such discussions -- which would never have taken place had the moderators enforced a strictly footy subject limitation here.

This website is damn near perfect. Please resist all calls to restrict or ban debates like the one above. The day this site permits only football discussions, we will lose something precious.

We won't always agree but as long as it doesn't get personally abusive, there is no harm in the wider debates even though we all come here predominantly to discuss all things Everton.

Jewish holy texts, what we call the Old Testament in our Bibles, goes back around 6000 years if you add up all the numbers. After leaving Ur in modern day Iraq, Abram and his family settled in Israel and after a brief 500 years of so sojourn in Egypt, they went back there with not a little help from God (Yahweh). This was a land promised to them, a land of milk and honey.

Roll forward a few more thousand years and they had been attacked and exiled and sometimes returned and sometimes occupied, by Persians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans and finally Turks/Muslims got rid of them all and they were dispersed to the four corners of the globe.

If I give you an analogy. Britain was invaded and we were all shipped off/escaped to various parts of the world as new people and nations moved in and lived in Britain. But no matter where we went we were still Brits and generation after generation knew they were and knew their history. In fact they used to say ". . and son, if you know your history we will return to our homeland one day." A few centuries later a new world order was established after a cataclysmic war where Brits suffered more than most with one of the antagonists trying to wipe out all those who had a trace of British blood - be that English, Welsh or Scottish British blood. That new world order decided that Brits should be allowed to settle back in Britain and call the land on which we lived, Britain, not Nieuw Nederland. Now the neighbours, the French, the Germans, the Belgians didn't like that because the relatively small numbers of Dutch, who had settled here in the intervening period when we could not live here, were pushed out. So they ganged up and tried to attack us. But we were proud Brits and defended ourselves. And being more united and being Brits, we stood firm. Most Dutch were happy to stay, although life was uncomfortable, but really made worse by some numpties who decided armed resistance and eventual death to all Brits was what was needed. So Britain passed a few anti-terrorist laws, like the Dutch could only live in Wales and the Newcastle area (yeah, we were that harsh). Then the Dutch armed resistance came and murdered a number of Brits living peacefully in Chester and dragged a few hundred off to Wales having raped a pile of them before or after they were taken or killed. The Brits decided enough is enough, we have to get rid of this armed resistance. Except those carrying arms were just nutters and did not care about their own people. They had taken the food and stuff to live well and then saying there was nothing left for the peaceful Dutch, while their leaders were even living it up in Paris and dining on Foie Gras, Champagne and Cognac. Even worse, when the Brits came to get rid of the numpties, the numpties made sure they were living in the same place as the peaceful Dutch so they were also killed and made Brits look bad.

The names have been changed, but the story is the same.

And apologies to my Dutch friends, a nation of the most wonderful friendly fun filled people. You would never be like that.

Growing up in my late teens and early twentes I learned a lot off a couple of my mates dads in the pub, mostly just by listening to what they had to say about life in general, they were very sensible people well worth listening to.

Is your post an actual joke

'Jewish holy texts, what we call the Old Testament in our Bibles, goes back around 6000 years if you add up all the numbers. After leaving Ur in modern day Iraq, Abram and his family settled in Israel and after a brief 500 years of so sojourn in Egypt, they went back there with not a little help from God (Yahweh). This was a land promised to them, a land of milk and honey.'

Your Analogy is hilarious, then you apologise to the Dutch who massacred thousands of Africans during their rule there.

Must be a joke.

I often regretted allowing myself to get embroiled in Covid debates, but like many folk, there is some nonsense I just can't let go.

I guess the bottom line is, if a thread is getting annoying or tedious, don't read it. The majority of what we discuss is Everton-related. And it's always interesting just how much people on the same side can disagree.

"A few centuries later" hmmm

Rather like in half a dozen other areas in the region, we're getting highly disputed information by two sides who understandably see themselves as victims, and two sides of a conflict who could really do with a bit less interference from us, and a bit more no strings attached humanitarian aid.

If you were a Brit in that analogy, how would you feel?

1. and apologies to the Dutch, because I used them to represent allies of Germany, France, Belgium (EU) who lived in Britain. Try working out who is who in the analogy.

2. and the Dutch massacred and enslaved far fewer native Africans than were massacred and enslaved by native Africans. The locals got through 800,000 in Rwanda alone 30 years ago. At 80,000 a day, the Nazis would have only taken less than 3 months for those they killed in the Holocaust.

Brenden - exactly. What start point do we want? 70AD when the Romans ransacked Jerusalem? Or any of the dates up to 638 when the Muslims invaded. But analogies (and this was how would we feel if this is what happened to Britain) are never an exact science.

Thank you Lyndon for permitting and facilitating the debate. I have at least 1 film recommendation and some books to learn from.

I didn't like Phil's #129 rather simplistic and 1 sided take on events. But I'm sure others will no doubt find fault with my post.

It's such a complicated situation mired in years of history such that it's nigh on impossible to declare either side absolutely ‘right' or ‘wrong' in this.

However, what is clear to me is that any innocent lives lost, any killing of innocent civilians IS WRONG.

The events of 7 October were wrong and the disproportionate reaction is wrong.

Somehow the phrase ‘self-defence' is being used to justify an absolute massacre of lives and a way of life. Personally I have no interest in this fight as I'm neither Jewish nor Palestinian. But as a humanitarian I'm horrified by what man can do to fellow man and justify. Personally I'm sickened by 7 October and what's ensued.

Mankind will eventually end itself. Of that I have no doubt.

I am glad I am not alone on what you posted. Especially your last sentence. Good man. Fucking frightening

If it's not genocide Lyndon, what is it?

It's non-precision often reckless bombing, much like the Blitz in London, bombing Dresden etc. As Lyndon said, the definition of genocide is narrow and applies to an attempt at complete extermination.

I believe the Holocaust, Rwanda and Namibia under colonial Germany, plus possibly Armenia, are the instances most legal minds believe meet the definition in modern times.

The people in London, Dresden, Rwanda were not imprisoned in a mass concentration camp with no escape. The children of London were evacuated. They had hospitals to go to. They had food and they had water. They had medicine. They had anaesthetic when they were getting limbs amputated.

Again, if it's not genocide, what is it?

Perhaps by the ‘legal' or ‘book' definition, it does not count as genocide. But from a humanitarian perspective, it looks and feels like one.

Especially as the lives and way of life (what possible normality exists for anyone that does manage to survive?) have been decimated for generations.

I don't pretend the way of life of the Israelis has been easy (Lyndon referenced a surprisingly excellent contribution from Stan Collymore above. I think post #90).

But by God (and let's also think of the religious angle because whose God can possibly reward any of this destructive behaviour?) the bombardment of civilians has been heart-wrenching.

Sorry mate I just don't get it and it feels like there are a lot of genocide apologists on here (a thing I thought I would never hear myself saying on ToffeeWeb). Now again I'm gonna ask the question, if it feels like a genocide and it looks like a genocide but it isn't a genocide, what is it then?

Crikey, mate – 600,000 to 1,000,000 killed or died on death marches. Think that counts as genocide in my book. I think we can take out the possibly.

Just because it doesn't meet the definition of technical genocide, it doesn't mean it's okay. Murder is murder but not every killer is a serial killer.

There are also heinous acts known as war crimes. Some of these have been committed during this conflict by Israel just as they have by Russia in Ukraine and on a smaller scale by Ukraine in Russia (eg, targeting civilian infrastructure). These are terrible things that shouldn't go unpunished.

But Israel hasn't systematically tried to kill every Palestinian. That is the key difference. The Hutu mobs literally attempted to murder any and every Tutsi with no warning, no trial, no leaflets saying “We're going to attack this particular area.” No humanitarian aid at all versus very limited humanitarian aid.

I personally do not support Israel's response. I also think it's counter-productive because, even if they kill every Hamas member, they're giving ammo for other terrorists to recruit orphans, homeless victims, people who've seen their relatives killed. I think long term it will make things worse.

But at this point, it's another instance of war and invasion with terrible civilian loss, just like we saw in Chechnya, Syria, Iraq, Vietnam, the “rape of Belgium,” the fire-bombing of Tokyo and so on. We don't need to get hung up on one specific word.

What's wrong is wrong – even if action is justified (eg, War in Afghanistan). Justified in my mind but the methods used and outcomes with loss of life are not justified.

In my mind, yes it's genocide… but I was reflecting the fact that, due to Turkish pressure, not everyone in the legal realm has classed it as such. Likewise Bosnia. Terrible as it was, some have argued the scale wasn't large enough to meet the criteria.

Not my opinions – I'm not a lawyer, I'm just trying to explain the term and how legal minds generally use it. If you go further back in history, though, bad as recent times have been, there have been many many genocides down the millennia.

Many of us TWers are of a generation where we've seen, heard and felt from earlier but still recent victims who somehow survived state-led mega-extermination of them and their loved ones – cue Nazism, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and others (all of whom are now long-since cemented into history as "fanatical psychopathic killing regimes", albeit after usually lengthy legalistic exploration of "due cause").

Eventual legalistic condemnation is of no earthly good to the many millions they exterminated of course.

And yet some of those preciously, personally close to family and friends so barbarically slaughtered have, throughout my lifetime, shown incredible courage and leadership by expressing their wish to "turn the page" and try to move toward peace on all sides – "aggressors" and "victims" included (and those showing such courage in my opinion know all about the heinous hurt inflicted on them and theirs).

I want Jewry to prevail in Israel and beyond (and no, I'm not Jewish or even religious) but, if exterminating tens of thousands of innocent individuals is the price to be paid in pursuit of that, please count me out.

And I abhor Hamas and their atrocities – end of.

That's the terrible thing about war mate. There are legitimately evil people for whom no punishment is too great but, all too often, the wolves hide among sheep and so for every scum bag Al Qaeda, Hamas, Nazi, Khmer Rouge etc untold numbers of just ordinary people concerned with paying bills, raising their kids, end up getting killed in the crossfire.

Sam 138 - This is an attempt at Genocide confirmed by some of the quotes by Israeli ministers themselves.

I'll have a stab at this, it is called 'Ethnic Cleansing'.

As an aside, here is a short 25:27 listen regards the current state of affairs (Dec '23) in Israel, and it's rating as a 'failed state'.

It includes an international observer, Israeli 'native' and a Prof. of Middle Eastern Politics as contributors, and the host.

How does Israel compare to failed states?

There is no denying that the Zionist Colonial-Settler state has and always will, seek the complete elimination of the indigenous Palestinian population, whether they are Sephardic, Mizrahi, or Karaite Jews.

The entire system of governance is determined by the Ashkenazi Zionist Haredi and Hiloni Ultra-Right wing symbolised by the ruling Likud party and the Yesh Atid party.

I'd recommend to anyone who is interested in the Arab-Israeli situation to stop listening or rather believing, in the heavily influenced Main Stream Media and do their own research, if of course you'd care to.

As a good starting point, I'd recommend the excellent Anthony C. Sutton book, 'Wall Street and the rise of Hitler', the second in his superb 'Wall Street and...' trilogy.

It provides great insight into the formation of 'Israel'.

Wall Street and the rise of Hitler

Nice one, you saved me some pixels. :)

I knew a filthy little anti-Semite would crawl out from under a rock sooner or later. Are you that fella from Latvia (Woods?) who used to write on here? The one who blamed the Jews for not arming themselves and fighting back during the Holocaust?

It's a never-ending story but try as you may, you'll never succeed. Never Again!

I didn't for one minute suggest that those things weren't true, reason being I don't know.

What I questioned is whether you know with 100% certainty that they ARE.

You see when people make their minds up on what's actually happened, unless they were there, unless they know what the people involved were actually thinking, then their "opinion" is based on what they've read or seen via the media, and very rarely via cast-iron proof.

Which makes it very very difficult for anyone not actually directly involved to have more than an opinion.

And as we know opinions differ depending on people's beliefs, and leanings.

I think there is plenty of evidence to support what I believe to be true, do a bit of research yourself mate. But if you are getting info from the MSM then I will tell now that all that ‘stuff' that you see on there will certainly not be true.

Just hang on a minute and get a grip on your emotions before you start slinging accusations around please.

Where did I mention anything anti-semitic (sic!) in my posts please?

Go on, point them out, and make it good, or I'll raise your libellous post to the Moderators on here.

Please Colin, I mean it...

In answer to your questions?

No, I've never read Der Sturmer, should I? Is it based on factual evidence about anything to do with the state of the Arab-Israeli history? If so, please point me in the direction of the book(s?), a simple URL link will suffice thank you.

I am not aware of anyone called Julius Streicher; though once I have finished replying to you, I will do an internet search on him.

Why would I mention the document referenced as "Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion"? Again, I didn't, so why raise it?

George Soros, again didn't mention him, nor inferred any connection to him, or the "globalists/cosmopolitans” (whatever that is meant to mean?) So, I ask you why are you mentioning him?

Also, you 'KNEW' a "filthy little anti semite" would crawl out from under a rock sooner or later.

Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, you are still waiting my friend. I'm not any form of anti-semite (sic!) in any shape or way. I am however, anti-Japhethite. As a self-stated historian Colin, I'm sure you know what I mean by that.

I actually live next door to a family of Jews (Ashkenazi, Russian) and have had the pleasure of celebrating Hanukkah with them many times over the years, and indeed, shared a table with them for birthdays, anniversaries and New Year's dinners more times than I can remember.

I have also discussed at great length my views on Israel, the Jewish 'persecution', and the Arab-Israeli relationship; and you know what Colin, never once was I slandered, or told never to return, I was made welcome and was always invited to return to the next event. Unfortunately, Maurice has passed recently, however, Rita and her family still welcome me, and I have helped her in her time of loss as best as I can, and as she wishes.

Next, no, again sorry to disappoint you on your 'overwatch' mission, I am not that 'fella from Latvia (Woods?) who used to write on here?'

Lastly, how could I offer advice that 'the Jews' should have armed themselves, and fought back? That would have been suicidal, and the thing is, the following events weren't exactly publicised, so how would 'the Jews' know that the 'Burnt Offering', or gassed offering, or shot offering, or whatever offering was going to take place? So why would they arm themselves and fight back against what, forced deportation and being moved into Ghettos?

OK, well maybe they could have done, but what would that have actually achieved?

Right, that is my polite response to your 'tirade'.

I'll accept an apology, else this is going to be escalated my friend.

Oh, one last thing, just what does this actually mean please Colin?

"It’s a never ending story but try as you may, you’ll never succeed. Never Again!"

If comments on a forum, by definition "a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." can cause such vehement, insulting, and, to me, irrational outbursts, may I politely suggest you stay off the thread for the good of your own health.

Good wishes,

Simon

Rather than riding on somebody else's coat-tails, I suggest you either grow a pair and speak for yourself, or stay schtum.

Good wishes,

Simon

We all have the right to question information but I'd say it's not a great idea to assume one side is entirely truthful and the other entirely lying. Or indeed that the media have a specific agenda and "alternative sources" don't.

Also, factor in the chaos of war. Somebody finds a bunch of brutally killed bodies and quickly relays the information. Some other shocked person relays and so on and suddenly a version of events may not be entirely accurate.

In a similar Vein, Hamas are the only ones reporting civilian casualty numbers in Gaza. It is highly unlikely in the chaos they have been able to get an accurate count. It is probable they would estimate on the high side to generate sympathy. Just as Ukraine claimed to have killed hundreds of thousands of Russians early when they were seeking recruits. The numbers they claimed have since been shown to have been completely exaggerated. But there is a propaganda war in every war that goes both ways. If you're discerning, you wait until you see evidence as opposed to deciding that one side is entirely bad the other entirely innocent. Often times we don't find out the whole truth until years later.

"There is no denying that the Zionist Colonial-Settler state has and always will, seek the complete elimination of the indigenous Palestinian population," is obviously inflamatory due to the choice of the emboldened words. But it is also false. Yitzak Rabin was Israeli Prime Minister and was assassinated by an Israeli extremist because he negotiated peace with the PLO. If the government has always sought their elimination, why did it take a right wing nutter to murder the prime minister for doing the opposite?
Also, Golda Meier outspoken as she was, according to declassified files discussed the idea of a Palestinian state as a separate entity or even as part of a three state federation with Israel and Jordan.

Moreover there are numerous sephardic and mizrahi Jews in political positions in Israel. The reason there are more Ashkenazi is because a) there were more of them there beforehand and b) they were the ones fleeing the holocaust.

I don’t know why you keep on bringing up Ukraine a a there is no comparison whatsoever.

One is a war between 2 well backed and well armed forces.

The other is a military occupation enforced by a nuclear armed military force backed by the greatest military powerhouse on the planet that is bombing a prisoned community back to the Stone Age. It is not as you put it a “war”.

I was deeply suspicious of you by not admitting what we are witnessing is a genocide and your last post has just confirmed my suspicions.

Please do not direct any more of your genocide denying posts towards me, I have no wish to engage with you any more.

And try your best to use your discernment to come to a judgement on what is happening in Palestine that does not deny the constant murdering of innocent children.

Like I say, every day is a school day, and I've learnt a few things on this thread today. 🙂👍

I actually told Lyndon I was going to take a break from ToffeeWeb, and maybe I should have done..?

However, what Sam Barrett in his multiple posts above was driving at about his argument vis a vis Genocide, or not technically Genocide, just needed a tiny nudge... Quite mischievous of me really; but as you stated above Alan,

"But blinking flip – there are some sanctimonious views being expressed here today."

The thing is, I've studied Middle-Eastern politics, and the various histories of several major players, like the House of Saud (Originally Jewish, then Wahhabis) and the connections between Saudi Arabia, and its relationship with Wahhabis, Britain and Israel.

However, that makes me a "filthy little anti-Semite" apparently?

Just shows that maybe, despite Lyndon's excellent post above (see [90]) reasoning why he posted this story/thread, maybe with such sensitive issues regards Religion, Finance and Politics, it may well be best left?

Unless of course, censorship and/or blind acceptance or belief is required?

To me that rails against the very precept of the idea of 'free speech'.

Either engage rationally, and argue your point or step away.

May I ask you Alan, in all honesty, was anything I posted 'anti-semitic' (Sic!) in your opinion?

By the way feel free to answer honestly, I won't be offended either way.

Good wishes mon ami,

Simon

If it was the goal of the Netanyahu administration to exterminate every Palestinian, they would have simply levelled both Gaza and the West Bank, hostages be damned. I don't believe that is the aim of the Israeli government and it sure as hell wouldn't be supported by the ordinary citizens of the country if it were.

Stuart: "Michael/Lyndon - at what point can/would a thread be closed? Or is the policy to let things run their course?"

About now, I think. Some of the exchanges are becoming very acrimonious.