With the announcement of the sanction handed down to Nottingham Forest, we’re one step closer to knowing exactly how many points they and Everton will have shaved off the tally they’ve managed to earn on the football pitch and some of the fog was lifted from the relegation picture.

It’s still pretty murky, however, given that we don’t know if Forest will appeal — they almost certainly will but probably shouldn’t waste theirs or the Premier League’s time because they got off lightly and should just take the win — or whether they will get any points back if they do.

Likewise, Everton still have to go before a second independent commission next week, and stand to be punished twice in the same season for the same offence covering 75% of the first sanction that was levied in November and reduced following appeal last month.

For those keeping track of the farcical implementation of spending rules that, thus far, have left the richest and most successful clubs in the land untouched and able to carry on with abandon while pummelling teams at the other end of the division, Leicester City look set to be charged with breaching Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) but won’t receive their sanction until next season and stand to start their return season in the Premier League with a deficit.

Article continues below video content

And if all of that weren’t enough, the current rules, rejected as unfit for purpose but wielded in all their inconsistency and lack of transparency over the past few months, are set to be turfed out in favour of something more akin to Uefa’s Financial Fair Play rules. (You’ll be delighted to know that were that system in place today, Everton would fall foul of those rules this season as well, but only just!)

Everton social media has been alive with anger, confusion and indignation about the fact that Forest have been deducted four points while Everton were docked six; and that the Premier League wanted to throw the book at the Toffees with the recommendation of a 12-point penalty but only recommended eight for Forest, even though the Trees’ breach was £15m higher than that of the Toffees.

Their commission judgement failed to use the benchmark used by the Appeal Board that heard Everton’s complaints — indeed, they explained that they couldn’t figure out the rationale the other panel used for pegging a PSR breach at six points — and came up with an entirely new framework that started at three, settled on six for a “serious breach” but gave two back because, unlike Everton, Forest admitted the breach early and co-operated fully with the Premier League’s investigation.

So rules that are supposed to be black-and-white and implemented to a transparent, open and fully understood sanctions framework are anything but. In fact, you get off lightly if you simply don’t put Richard Masters and his cohorts’ collective noses out of joint.

Of course Forest admitted their breach and co-operated. It was obvious to anyone who watched them amass an astonishing number of players across two transfer windows and spend around £250m in the process that they would breach the spending limits.

Despite the size of Everton’s losses before COVID exemptions and the like, the Blues’ case was not nearly so cut-and-dried. Despite making a royal mess of trying to remain compliant, Farhad Moshiri’s administration clearly felt that there was sufficient validity to their heads of mitigation that they could convince the League that they were under the ceiling and refused to plead guilty on that basis. Both the original Independent Commission and the Appeal Board clearly thought otherwise.

And here we are… with three different frameworks for doling out sanctions by three different entities and nothing to suggest that the commission that hears the second charge against Everton will adhere to any of the precedents set by those that came before it… or that the subsequent appeal panels won’t have entirely new interpretations of their own! The greatest league in the world, Ladies and Gentlemen…

None of it should matter, though, because, just as it was at times in 2021-22 under Frank Lampard, and when it came down to the potentially bitter but relief-laden end last season, Everton’s future is in their own hands. There are predictions and assumptions that can be made about how many points the Blues will get docked when the second commission’s verdict comes out in the first week of April but, unless the penalty is as severe as the first (in which case, a massive injustice has been perpetrated), it should be immaterial.

Everton have enough winnable games and, by extension, enough points on the table to render the vagaries of the Premier League’s PSR sanctions irrelevant. But it does require them getting their act together in most areas of the pitch and rediscovering the form that propelled them out of the relegation zone in the wake of the initial points deduction last November.

Anyone who has watched Sean Dyche’s men in recent weeks will know that there’s a big difference between identifying the problems and rectifying them. Lately, the manager has appeared to be bereft of solutions to his side’s attacking failings while seeing the defensive solidity for which he is renowned start to falter as well.

But with the benefit of a three-week hiatus, which will hopefully allow some bodies to heal and see the likes of Arnaut Danjuma and Idrissa Gueye return to fitness, and a team-bonding trip to Portugal, the players and coaching staff have had the opportunity to search some souls, reconnect as a group (inadvertently robust slaps to the head of Scottish full-backs notwithstanding), and return refreshed for the work ahead.

Again, translating that to the pitch when it matters in the heat of Premier League battle is the challenge but it is one Dyche needs to meet head-on if he and his team are to capitalise on a run-in that is, statistically, the most favourable in the Premier League over the final 10 matches.

They can afford to write off the final-day trip to the Emirates Stadium where they probably stand as much chance as they did hungover from the events at Goodison Park against Crystal Palace three days previously in May 2022 while also anticipating more misery in the Merseyside derby and concentrate on eight other fixtures against teams currently sitting in the bottom 11 of the table.

That inevitably means crucial games against our relegation rivals — indeed, the Blues have yet to play all of the other five sides that currently make up the bottom six around them, with four of those games, against Brentford, Forest, Burnley and Sheffield United, being at home.

That, of course, presents its own pause for thought given Everton’s home form this season (the Grand Old Lady has played witness to just three Premier League wins all season), the team's psychological barrier when it comes to matches they're expected to win, and their current woes in front of goal. (It's why this author would have them train at Goodison, running attacking drills over and over again to instill the muscle memory of scoring goals in an actual stadium again.)

But there are points to be won on the road as well, starting at Bournemouth at the end of the month (when there will be no better time to register our first Premier League win on the Cherries’ home turf) and later at Luton. Even trips to Stamford Bridge and St James' Park shouldn't be written off. Dyche’s side is certainly set up to do better away from home, providing it can start scoring again.

Put simply, Everton have no excuses because they couldn't ask for better circumstances outside of that pending second sanction from the Premier League.

Two clubs are effectively already down in the form of the Clarets and the Blades, meaning the Toffees only have to finish with a better record than one other teams to stay up. They play every team around them between now and the end of the season. They’ve been handed a three-week break to rest and get their heads right and, potentially, they could come out of it with only Dele Alli as unavailable. And even Dyche, as infamous as he is for not using all his options, must surely see the need to start leveraging every choice available to him.

There is talent in this team; they’ve shown that in flashes under Dyche. Now they have to believe it, internalise it and translate it into results on the pitch. If they can do that, independent commissions and points deductions be damned!

The Run-In

Brentford (26 pts)

Manchester United (H)
Brighton (H)
Aston Villa (A)
Sheffield United (H)
Luton Town (A)
Everton (A)
Fulham (H)
Bournemouth (A)
Newcastle (H)

Everton (25 pts)

Bournemouth (A)
Newcastle (A)
Burnley (H)
Chelsea (A)
Nottingham Forest (H)
Brentford (H)
Liverpool (H)
Luton Town (A)
Sheffield United (H)
Arsenal (A)

Luton Town (22 pts)

Tottenham (A)
Arsenal (A)
Bournemouth (H)
Manchester City (A)
Brentford (H)
Wolves (A)
Everton (H)
West Ham (A)
Fulham (H)

Nottingham Forest (21 pts)

Crystal Palace (H)
Fulham (H)
Tottenham (A)
Wolves (H)
Everton (A)
Manchester City (H)
Sheffield United (A)
Chelsea (H)
Burnley (A)

Burnley (17 pts)

Chelsea (A)
Wolves (H)
Everton (A)
Brighton (H)
Sheffield United (A)
Manchester United (A)
Newcastle (H)
Tottenham (A)
Nottingham Forest (H)

Sheffield United (14 pts)

Fulham (H)
Liverpool (A)
Chelsea (H)
Brentford (A)
Burnley (H)
Newcastle (A)
Nottingham Forest (H)
Everton (A)
Tottenham (H)

This article has been updated to reflect the reported scheduling of Everton's second PSR hearing for next week

Reader Comments (105)

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Paul Ferry
1 Posted 19/03/2024 at 06:33:32
Not a word to add Lyndon, apart from thanks. My every thought is in here but calibrated in your narrative and systematic way. This is now my/our argument for the weeks and months ahead.

Well, perhaps the welcome news that independent regulation is on the way and that is in large part, I think, down to the select committee's reaction to the North Wharf Road arrogant turd.

Peter Mills
2 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:08:48
There it is, Mr Dyche and players. Read, digest and act.
Danny Baily
3 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:16:50
There's may be 12 points available from that run-in, which after a 6-point deduction will leave us on 31 points. And that's if we don't slip up in the remaining winnable fixtures. I don't think that will be enough to stay up, even this season.

12 points is simply too much to come back from.

Danny O’Neill
4 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:17:29
Good write-up as always, Lyndon.

It's a simplistic view, but just beat those around you. And them of course!

It's been said many times. The Premier League is making this up as they go along. Get a truly independent regulator in to hold them accountable and dig into their alleged frameworks.

Fat cats milking their positions… It's almost Stalinist.

Ken Kneale
5 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:17:44
This should be posted on the walls at Finch Farm.
Eddie Dunn
6 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:17:58
Of course, today we also have had the announcement that Government Regulators will oversee football.

This might not turn out to be a great move as other bodies like Ofcom, Ofgen etc have been less than perfect but anything that takes power from the PL and the FL is surely a step in the right direction.

The payers and staff at Everton really need to get their act together. Never mind uncertainty. They have had a nice holliday and rested injuries etc and like all of the other clubs in the Bottom 6, they will have to put external worries about further charges and appeals to the backs of their minds and get on with their jobs.

Personally, I think we will continue to struggle for goals and we will be in the mix until the last game and then we will have to wait, like everyone else, to see the final league table.

The answer, of course, is to win a few games. If we are back to full strength and Coleman can play right-back, then we might be okay.

Brent Stephens
7 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:22:09
Lyndon, perhaps you can check this for me.

Does para 9.20 of the Commission report into the Nottm Forest case show that the Forest Commission did in fact use the benchmark used by the Appeal Board in Everton's case??

Paul Hewitt
8 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:23:17
Like the headline says "No Excuses". It's now time for the manager and players to stand up and fight for this club.

Looking at the run-in for the clubs, I'd say we have a relatively decent run-in. Apart from Liverpool and Arsenal games, I think we can take points from the others.

Forest have a relatively good run-in and are strong at home. Luton's next four could be decisive; I can't see them getting anything from Spurs, Arsenal, or Man City.

If they were to lose at home to Bournemouth as well, I think that would probably be them gone, particularly if we were to win at least
two of our next four.

Jerome Shields
9 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:36:44
Down to the manager and team, as Lyndon says. As for the management of the club, they may as well not exist for all we will hear from them.

Good Luck, Everton.

Donal Armani
10 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:41:37
Yes, Brent, I think it did, and so did the Premier League itself when it initially proposed a bigger sanction for Forest of 8 points (vs 6) to reflect the greater financial breach, albeit one reducible by 2 points on mitigation grounds.
Ernie Baywood
11 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:45:50
Brent 7, they go through it in depth in section 14 (Quantification).

I don't think it's right to say they didn't follow the benchmark from our case. They did.

Where Lyndon is right is that there is no transparent framework for sanctions in place. The original commission had nothing to go on, our appeal commission used the EFL guidelines to some extent, and then Forest's Commission used the benchmarks from our appeal. All 3 independent commissions have had to use their own judgement to fill in the gaps.

The main gap is whether we got the additional 3 points for the £19.5M breach. They've ended up assuming it was an extra 3 points for a 'significant breach' including aggravating factors (telling porkies). And Forest got an extra 3 points for a more significant breach without aggravating factors.

That feels about right, but there wouldn't be any 'feel' required if the Premier League could do their job.

Tony Abrahams
12 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:47:23
It's a long time since I felt sorry for any footballer, but I do feel sorry for the shite that everyone connected to Everton FC (bar the ghost owner) has had to put up with this season.

My belief is that the 10-point deduction was designed to put the club under a massive amount of pressure,and this is exactly what has happened to a small squad, that had been getting weakened over the last few years by the Premier League before they came in with such a massive punishment. (I think this has been proven now we have seen Forest's, punishment.)

The players are still under pressure because they must feel that there's a big chance our club will be punished again but none of them will want to be relegated and I'm sure they would all like to stick two fingers up at the Premier League.

With everyone fit, Everton have simply not been a relegation team this season, so after a 3-week break, then everyone should be fit and refreshed enough, to pull us away from danger.

The world is a brutal place, which means that all the excuses in the world mean absolutely nothing, unfortunately, so the quicker the whole club adopts this truth, then the quicker we will finally move forward.

Brent Stephens
13 Posted 19/03/2024 at 07:58:03
Don #10 and Ernie #11, thanks both.

I'm as "exercised" as everybody else about certain elements of our case but I think it's also important to be honest about, for example, what the Commission and Appeals reports are and are not saying.

John Keating
14 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:11:26
As the Forest commission halved the Premier League's recommendation of an 8-point deduction before an appeal, I expect the Premier League will appeal this decision on leniency.

Then again, seeing the total amateurism, incompetence and yes, corruption of the Premier League and its commissions, it might be that Forest finish up with no points deducted!

Ernie Baywood
15 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:19:16
Brent, I think we could write pages of frequent misinterpretations from the rulings. I've seen everything from us not being allowed stadium costs to be excluded, to the Commission stating we didn't get a sporting advantage, to us now being vindicated as having acted in good faith. None of those are true.

Likewise Forest didn't get their mitigation regarding Johnson accepted.

I'm all for challenging points deductions. Certainly the first one was excessive and all judgements have had a subjective element. Likewise the sanctions are poorly administered and absolutely not transparent.

But I think we have to turn our attention to the club's leadership and to the pitch. Both are of incredible importance to our ongoing existence. And both are currently failing massively. And making changes in those areas is something that the club does have control over.

Where is the pressure on the manager to try something to arrest our dismal form? Where is the pressure for Moshiri to sell to someone who can actually afford us? That's all stopped in favour of lamenting our bad luck on the pitch and brandishing 'Corrupt' posters to lament our misfortune off the pitch. Don't tell me there isn't someone out there - it's just a matter of the price. And it's far more important than this stuff.

Tony Abrahams
16 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:23:27
I would argue that the much bigger issue with regards the future of Everton, is taking forever, and believe that this is putting a massive amount of pressure on our supporters?

Hopefully soon the league will make a decision on 777, because the fear of administration grows daily, when you consider they are allegedly going to stop lending the club money, at the end of this month, and if we can’t pay the players, then this is usually another automatic point’s deduction? Or do clubs receive a suspended penalty first?

Paul Hewitt
17 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:24:52
Looking at the remaining fixtures I've worked out we get 13 points, forest 18 and Luton 7. So we should be ok.
Ernie Baywood
18 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:33:36
Tony, that's the very discussion point that doesn't seem to be that high on the agenda.

Honestly, it terrifies me. It's an existential threat. Isn't it?

Brent Stephens
19 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:41:08
Ernie #15 "I think we could write pages of frequent misinterpretations from the rulings..."

I'd add the misrepresentation about our Appeal hearing - we weren't shown to have acted in good faith (we just shouldn't have been found guilty of not acting in good faith as that charge was never brought against us).

Michael Kenrick
20 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:47:57

So rules that are supposed to be black-and-white and implemented to a transparent, open and fully understood sanctions framework are anything but.

This is perhaps the clearest explanation for the cry of 'Corruption' howled to the rafters by distraught Evertonians these past months.

I just wonder how true this is? I mean, the "transparent, open and fully understood sanctions framework"? There never was such a thing – and never such a claim or presumption, within the Premier League framework at least.

Yes, all right-thinking fans and even disinterested observers would reasonably assume that's what should be in place… but as Joe Thomas says: "There is no formula to decide the sanction for breaches of profitability and sustainability rules because the clubs did not want one."

Also, "rules that are supposed to be black-and-white"? Same considerations apply. They should be (obviously)… but that's not what the Premier League clubs agreed to.

For me, the 'Corruption' charge still comes down to whether the Premier League's rules were implemented correctly, as written, or not? If they were, then the charge of 'Corruption' seems difficult to sustain — despite all the incomprehensible inconsistencies that have now been exposed.

Niall McIlhone
21 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:53:20
Absolutely right, Lyndon. There can be no excuses, especially if the second judgement results in a “manageable “deduction of 2 or 3 points ?
I would add another factor into the mix: there have been numerous occasions this season where Everton have benefitted from favourable outcomes in games involving our relegation rivals, most recently with Luton equalising at the death against a Forest team who should have snuck away with all three points.

As much as I am sure we all feel aggrieved by the seemingly endless conflict with the PL, I feel Everton have been buffeted to some degree by other results “going our way” and as such, the manager and the team should now start to deliver and lift the club away from the drop zone whilst having complete focus upon what we can achieve in the field of play. A win on the south coast on March 30th would go a long way to that end.

Christine Foster
22 Posted 19/03/2024 at 08:55:38
Ernie, I understand where you are coming from, but some things need explaining, somethings are not right, they are just plain wrong. It's not a woe is me reaction, it's confusion and anger at the total lack of consistency of the commission(s) interpretations of the rules and the utter lack of any natural justice. If the benchmark is set, then stick to it. Everyman and his dog understood that 6 points was the starting number for a breach, but this latest one had split into a 3 + 3 and then added a 2 point deduction for admitting the breach.
Everton, depending who you believe, tried to argue their viewpoint but were accused of deliberately misleading the league. Everton FC it should be noted has not admitted anything of the sort, in fact they have not responded publicly to the appeal report, other than to express disappointment, no doubt they do not wish a public spat before another commission hearing.
In the absence of the owner, a board, or even a spokesperson, we are left floundering in the darkness between truth and conjecture. No one is in our corner Ernie, just the team and fans. We are fighting with hands tied against an opponent who changes the rules as they see fit and a referee who looks the other way.
Without doubt the card protests have embarrassed the league world wide. We haven't got any allies, we haven't got many bullets but we use what we can to put pressure back to highlight the injustice. It's worked in that sense but the utter arrogance of the league in its attempts to punish in the harshest manner, both Forest and Everton, for failing to comply with a set of rules that they and every club know, are outdated and unfit for purpose, for no other reason than to ridicule and punish, make the Premier league administration, it's board and CEO, guilty of a wilful abuse of power. Intending to cause harm. Vindictive in its portrayal of offending clubs. That's Forests view as trusts are broken.
No wonder City told them where to go.

Danny O’Neill
23 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:04:43
Very well articulated Michael and Christine. No more to add, you've said it all.

It feels like an eternity until we go to Bournemouth and focus on the football again.

We will win enough games and the eternal optimist in me fancies us against them.

We're in a corner blues. Come out fighting.

Peter Quinn
24 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:17:51
I have read the decision again. Fundamentally the Commission failed to realise there was an enormous aggravating feature which was the deliberate breaching of the rules. The Forest owner rode a cart and horse through PSR. Their guilty plea was because they knew they were in deep trouble and had no option but to accept their guilt. To take two points off the 6 and reduce a penalty for a very serious and deliberate misdemeanour was ridiculous when the Forest owner effectively stuck two fingers up at PSR. Johnson played for Forest in August before his sale to Spurs yet they argued they had no sporting advantage. Their PSR trend was going up yet in terms of PSR losses ours were going down. We have to argue at the next hearing it is ridiculous that a £19.5 million overspend ends up with two points more than a £34.5 million overspend especially when Forest perpetrated a deliberate act and Everton did not. We received no reduction for our guilty plea. The next tribunal has to be asked to rectify the injustice of this. So that is for our lawyers. As we go into the last eleven games we have to turn Goodison into a bear pit again. Forest chose to attack Everton in their representations at the Commission. We and our team need to respond to this attack and injustice. Let's forget attacking the Premier league, it is pointless especially when their case was Forest needed an 8 point penalty, let's attack the teams we are playing, concentrate on winning points on the field and get out of this mess. We did it in December the same group of players can surely do it again.
Ernie Baywood
25 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:18:12
Christine, punishing teams who broke clear rules isn't arrogant. It's what is supposed to happen.

Our Appeal Commission made a comment along the lines of it being very obvious to clubs that any breach would result in a points deduction.

The 3+3 wasn't tabulated by our Appeal Commission but it was there.

Absent any particular mitigation, three is therefore the minimum points deduction prescribed by the EFL Guidelines, with an increase in that minimum to reflect extent of breach in money terms of one point per £2m-£2.5m up to a maximum of 12 points leaving aside any particular aggravation. On the information available, the EFL Guidelines appear to us to suggest that, without descending to precise numbers (which would be over-mathematical), where there is a significant overspend in percentage terms beyond the upper loss threshold, such as of the order of 20%, without other factors, it is appropriate for that to be reflected in an additional three points sanction.

John Keating
26 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:24:23
Michael 20
Michael there may well be no hard and fast rules and sanctions laid down in the PL rulebook, however, surely once an independent commission has set guidelines, the Everton commission, and the PL have not challenged that in an appeal, does that not lay down a baseline?

I mentioned yesterday afternoon on another thread I found it amazing that the Forest Commission noted point after point both Everton's initial charge and their appeal, thereby obviously using us as a guideline. Finally when actually determining the Forest decision they didn't have a clue how our deduction had been arrived at.
Not only did they not have a clue about how our point deduction had been derived but they strangely used our position to ascertain that Forest should get an 8 point deduction and then ignore the calculation.

As with Everton, any deduction should have been obtained on appeal. It appears in this case the commission agreed 8 points could be justified and then immediately pre-empted an appeal and reduced it down to 4

An equal playing field is all we can ask for. When this is not applied then incompetence and/or corruption surely, can legitimately be called

Ernie Baywood
27 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:37:16
Sorry John but that is all incorrect.

It's not true that they didn't have a clue as to how we got our deduction. They made an assumption as to whether our additional 3 points included aggravating factors (misleading the PL). That's all. They knew it was 3 as an entry point and 3 for a significant breach.

It's not true that they justified an 8 point deduction for Forest. They stated 8 points would be the maximum for a breach given administration is worth 9 in the PL framework.

And it's certainly not right that they would ignore all of that history and give them a higher punishment to make them work a bit harder for a reduction in the punishment. They're supposed to reach what they believe is the right decision - not set a mark to be reduced on appeal.

We didn't get our reduction just because we appealed. It's not a parking fine. We got it because we demonstrated in the appeal that the punishment was not consistent with the PL's rule framework and did not take into account existing benchmarks.

Andy Duff
28 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:46:39
It's all well and good issuing rally call. What the tribunal outcomes have proven results really do not matter.

Everton face another charge, Forest can appeal this.

The outcomes of Everton and Forest's final ruling will not be known until after the season.

If they had been consistent you'd have some faith that it's in Everton's hands. The fact Forest were hit for 4 not 6 or 10 gives you no confidence at all in the next charge Everton is facing.

We could get an "independent" panel that decides we need another 10. We appeal Forest appeal and only one of us goes down. Would you trust them to treat Everton fairly?

This needs stopping now. Everton should use whatever they have in their power to take the Premier League to court. If they can't then the fans need to.

This league will ultimately be decided by who the Premier league wants to relegate and not on results and points earnt.

Kevin Edward
29 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:48:06
Unfortunately the new government regulator will not help the situation.
I hear the EPL are concerned that it may impact the competitiveness of the league…
Ha, Ha, Ha.
Regardless of Forest, and whether we survive the points deductions, EFC should appeal, kick and scream about this unfair highly subjective process for ever.
I’d be amazed if 777 gets approved, so we are likely to be in this mess for a while. How can Mosh bail out with an unfinished BMD?
Danny Baily
30 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:49:18
Peter 24, that was my take as well. Forest blatantly ignored PSR rules, as well as a warning from their own Director of Finance in January 2023, and proceeded to spend to gain a sporting advantage. In contrast, we were caught in the eye of a storm (sanctions, player ineligibility) that was entirely unforeseeable. And yet we receive the greater sanction. And we'll be the the only club ever to be subject to multiple sanctions in a single season.

It's sending us down when we don't deserve to be, and it stinks. It's one of either corruption or incompetence of the highest order.

Alan J Thompson
31 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:50:56
It makes sense to say that the club that takes the most points from their relegation "rivals" should survive but I have this feeling that the survivors (other than Burnley & Sheff Utd) will be those (or one) that takes unexpected points from their 3 most difficult opponents and Bournemouth, although if we get a 4 point deduction then Burnley will come into the calculation.
Brian Harrison
32 Posted 19/03/2024 at 09:51:36
Had the Premier league set out not only the allowed limits of spending over a 3 year period, but also a table of punishments that clearly set out what points deductions or fines would be metered out then everybody would have understood the consequences of an overspend. But they didnt stipulate what the punishment would be so we now have different commissions deciding different outcomes for similar cases. I also think they hadnt given any consideration to the possibility of a club transgressing the rules based on 2 previous seasons overspend. So where in their rules does it show how this anomaly should be viewed, so we are left with a commission deciding do they still apply the 3 year rule which for 2 of those years the club has already been punished, and do they treat the 3rd year as a stand alone figure.
Danny Baily
33 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:06:02
Alan 31, we're most likely going to be hit with a 6 point deduction, as our mitigating factors have already been dismissed. Even so, I think the relegation battle is limited to ourselves, Luton and Forest.

To stay up we'll need to pick up around 15 points, which could leave us on 34 points. That's 4-5 wins, with 4 winnable games remaining. There is absolutely no margin for error

Kevin Prytherch
34 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:06:43
Anyone else think this is the first stage in letting Man City off?

They will now be charged with…
3pts for breaching PSR
3 pts for a “serious breach” (we now know it doesn’t matter if you’re £19.5m over or £500m over - it’s still just a “serious breach”)
2-4pts for not initially complying with the premier league.

Man City should therefore receive somewhere between an 8-10pt penalty for their 115 charges based on what has been published for us and Forest.

Jerome Shields
35 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:09:46

In dealing with the Premier League, Everton were weak from the start.The whole process was not based on rules, but negotiation.Everton did not engaged in any negotiation from the start.They were rudderles and the whole Club was run that way.Dyche has attempted to lead, without help. He has limited ability.The Club is being still run the same as always, so the players are use to it.

Mal van Schaick
36 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:11:23
I agree with Peter#24. I think that this I’ll thought out Pantomime is too far down the road now, in terms of handing out decisions on a level playing field.

Precedence has been set in the tribunal decision making, and all ready it is making a mockery of the whole situation. Fools rush in, where Angels fear to tread.

The PL have not clearly thought out all the implications, not only affecting the clubs that have allegedly broken the spending rules, but also those who allege that because clubs have allegedly broken the spending rules, those actions have impacted upon their PL survival, and/or they have been disadvantaged.

I think that this mess will rumble on for months, and whereas some clubs accept the findings and take points deduction, albeit after appeal, other clubs who claim that they have been disadvantaged will continue to question the fairness of any decisions.

Bobby Mallon
37 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:11:43
If we go into administration then moshiri won’t get all his money back so I don’t think that’s an option he will take. Moshiri will bankroll us ( with loans ) he won’t want that ground sold for peanuts.
James Marshall
38 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:20:33
So the independent commission is likely to happen now, and is also likely to be about as effective as Ofcom, Ofgen, and Ofwat - mostly entirely useless, and lining the pockets of Tory cronies. (Offoot? Ofside?)

The Premier League will probably stay untouchable, everything will be weighted in line with keeping The 6 at the top and we'll carry on scrabbling around pointlessly year on year in the vain hope that one day we'll win something.

I'm 51 in the summer, and my best guess is that we'll never win anything again in my lifetime because the doors are shut and the drawbridge has long since been pulled up with us locked out.

Football has become solely about matchday victories for a club like ours now - the days of being top of the league, or winning a cup are over.

It's not the winning that counts, it's the taking part.

Bobby Mallon
39 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:22:45
Also can we just get one thing straight. Man City have only breached PSR (ONLY) 7 times not 115. The others are for different things. They are being done by Eufa this year and the findings will be out in 2025, but that’s not PSR. The premier league have not set a date yet for their 7 breaches ( c**ts).
Ernie Baywood
40 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:24:39
Kevin, City probably have a host of charges relating to things that will be considered to have not conferred a sporting advantage. ie admin/reporting/accounting stuff.

For example I don't think we know how many charges actually relate to overspending the PSR.

It's hard to believe there won't be some though. Realistically they don't need that many 'sporting advantage' charges to be well and truly relegated if punishment is applied evenly.

Tony Abrahams
41 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:24:55
You would like to think that this is what Moshiri, will choose to do Bobby, and although I’m still very confident that some others are up to date and waiting, I think what Ernie says, about administration being an existential threat, must be in a lot of people’s thoughts right now?

Another thought has also crossed my mind because of what I consider to be unbalanced punishments, and that is that the league have been embarrassed by the Evertonians, who never took their clubs punishment, lying down, and have got the commission to wangle some kind of reward to the supporters of Nottingham Forest

Danny O’Neill
43 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:35:53
Interesting reading through the comments, we will probably be debating this a lot more come the verdict on our second case as it's a long wait until Bournemouth.

Sorry to bore everyone with my military analogies, but rules and regulations should be black and white. No question or debate.

Guidelines are different. They are vague and ambiguous. Open to interpretation.

We used to have "harmony guidelines" to try and avoid sending people out into conflict zones within 18 months of returning.

Guidelines. We often had to send people within 6 months. I, myself spent most of 2007 through to 2010 deployed in Helmand.

Anyway, I digress. Get this shower of a Premier League properly regulated and held accountable.

Tony Abrahams
44 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:37:01
Unscrupulous owners who voted against giving the EFL, a greater share of the wealth, or unscrupulous owners who have got loads of money to spend on their football club, to make them a lot more competitive, but are not being allowed to do this, even though some other Clubs can be a billion pound in debt, and be left alone.

The laws are a shambles, and these new rules that have been proposed are only going to close the shop a lot further. Especially when you consider how many of the biggest clubs in Europe are still allowed to keep entering the competition where these new rules are coming from (Europe) – despite having astronomical debt.

John Keating
45 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:54:20

"The Commission does not know how the three extra points were arrived at by the Appeal Board for Everton, but some part of those three points must relate to the provision of incorrect information."

Ernie, to me, that sounds like they didn't have a clue how our extra 3 points were inflicted. Assumption is definitely not "knowing" Assumption is a guess.

And, as they say, the 3 points may not have been all for a breach but for incorrect information. So how many for the breach and how many for incorrect information? All wishy-washy.

14.4: If the Commission applied the same approach to Forest, this would also result in five points being awarded for the breach of £34.5 million, to be added to the minimum of three points.

They didn't just mention the 8 points in reference to administration, they actually calculated how they arrived at 8 points in section 14.3

It is fair to say that Forest determined that all PSR breaches should not inflict more than 8 points as a breach was far less serious than insolvency. That being the case, why did not the Commission agree with Forest and give them the 8 points??
Why did our commission totally ignore that argument and inflict us with 10 points???

14.5 Mentions a mitigation of co-operation and early plea in a reduction of two points. So that's 6 points.

Sorry, Ernie, in my book, I just repeat: incompetence and/or corruption. The Forest commission had more than enough of a guideline to work from from both our charge and appeal in which to guide their decision. They quoted us often enough and, at the end, went their own merry way.

3 commissions 3 separate decisions from 3 different processes.

We did get our points back because we appealed. If we hadn't appealed, the 10-point deduction would have remained. Our appeal was won on 2 legal grounds.

One, the original commission was wrong in saying we were "less than frank" regarding new stadium debt;
Two, the Commission were wrong in not using available benchmarks such as EFL guidelines.

The whole bloody thing is a complete shambles and there has to be some legal path for whoever gets relegated to fight this charade.

Dave Abrahams
46 Posted 19/03/2024 at 10:57:51
Danny (3 and 33), Why do you say we will be hit with another 6-point deduction while arguing very sensibly (30) that the way we have been treated is very unfair and it stinks that these loss of points will send us down?

I will be absolutely amazed if we get another 6 points and if we get a 1-point deduction, I will be surprised. The 6 points was far too much but it forewarned all the other clubs what lay ahead for them and they have and will benefit from watching us being the guinea pigs and scapegoats in the future.

You could argue that Forest already have although I would say that neither club should have been charged under rules and sentences that were not fixed firmly in place.

Jonathan Haddock
47 Posted 19/03/2024 at 11:03:51
I've seen a lot of people assuming that our second charge is going to result in a minimal points deduction. In my judgment, this is false optimism.

It's pretty clear now that any breach is a minimum of 3 points. Anything that is considered to be a ‘significant' breach is going to get a further 3 points (based on the Forest wording), ie, not a sliding scale.

I'm thinking that the definition of 'significant' could easily be anything more than +5% or £5M say.

I'm guessing that we are more than £5M over, so we can assume a 6-point deduction could easily be applied. Everton may get the benefit of cooperation like Forest did, but I don't think there's a cat in hell's chance that the Premier League would advocate for us in the same way as they did for Forest.

So, in my judgment, we're getting a further 6 points. So far, the commissions have rejected almost every mitigation both clubs have put forward and have taken a very black-and-white view with minimal subjectivity. This means that I feel that we have very little chance of any mitigation being successful and that includes any argument on double jeopardy.

Points deductions are being applied immediately and our argument that you can't be punished twice in the same season is going to fail for 2 linked reasons. Both are related to Forest.

Firstly the 2022-23 breach for Forest is being applied this season, so Everton's should be the same.

Secondly, Forest absolutely stuck the boot into us in their submissions by claiming that Everton deliberately delayed the first hearing to avoid relegation last season.

How they can claim that is beyond me but this clearly gained some traction based on the commission's comments. These two factors will make it difficult to avoid the second punishment being applied this year.

We need to assume that we're currently on 19 points, 2 behind Forest and 3 behind Luton and we're going to have to fight for every single point to avoid the drop.

Jack Convery
48 Posted 19/03/2024 at 11:09:07
I find it very ironic that the Good Ship Everton is heading into a dry dock on the River Mersey come 2025. I just hope, it's not as a display of a once-great historical football team.

The prevailing winds are against us. We have strikers who can't score – not even, in the Grafton.

Calvert-Lewin has not looked the same since Martinez refigured his cheekbone. He's also pissed with Evertonians for booing him that day as he was substituted and, in my opinion, he's right to be so. He's also become a father and as us fathers know trying to get enough sleep can be a problem, when a baby arrives.

Beto is a trier and will give all he has but all he has, is so far nowhere near what we require right now. I'd love to see him score 7 or 8 goals before the season ends – but will he?

Chermiti and Dobbin, who knows. We just need someone to hit a rich vein of form in front of goal and it needs to start at Bournemouth.

It's administration that scares the hell out of me and I don't trust Moshiri one bit.

Paul Hewitt
49 Posted 19/03/2024 at 11:11:32
We won't get 6, the Premier League won't want us to appeal, that would only be heard at the end of the season. That's something the Premier League won't want. I can see 2 at most.
Brian Harrison
50 Posted 19/03/2024 at 12:08:58
I have been watching Sky Sports News and listening to TalkSport and both keep saying Everton were deducted 6 points and Forest 4 points.

That is incorrect: Everton were deducted 10 points and got 4 points back and the appeal commission gave 2 back because they said that Everton didn't obstruct the investigation. Also, Forest were given an initial 6-point deduction but got 2 back for being very helpful through the process.

As I keep saying, this is not a civil trial, this is a commission set up by the Premier League, and Everton by appealing proved that the initial judgement was wrong.

Again, some reporters on Sky Sports News are saying Forest might get an additional 2 points deducted if they appeal — where does it say that in the rules?

Like most of the rules brought in by Uefa and the Premier League, they are there to facilitate the wishes of the rich and powerful clubs, and it's no coincidence that it's the clubs at the wrong end of the table who have been found in breach of the rules.

Bizarrely, it's being rumoured that, if Leicester City get promoted, they will also be deducted points.

So basically these rules were brought in to keep anyone bar the Top 6 in their place.

Without being extremely lucky, promoted clubs have very little chance of staying in the Premier League and those at the bottom of the Premier League table will struggle financially until eventually they fall through the trap door.

Danny O’Neill
51 Posted 19/03/2024 at 12:21:11
Big Brother, Brian.

It's like a Russian election.

If you protest, you get arrested or punished!!!

Ernie Baywood
52 Posted 19/03/2024 at 12:24:42
Sorr,y Ernie, in my book, I just repeat incompetence and/or corruption.

And I'm sorry, John, but I just repeat that you're misinterpreting the document.

The sections you quoted are not the Commission's decision. They are the Premier League's proposed deduction. The Commission then goes into detail about why it is not accepting that, just as they didn't accept the Premier League's proposed deduction in our case.

You have stated that the Commission 'didn't have a clue' as to how our deduction was worked out. Well, they did – the appeal report. They used assumption to fill in the pretty minor gap that was not explicitly called out. That gap was the extent to which aggravating factors had been incorporated. They considered that the size of Forest's breach was comparable to the size of Everton's plus the misleading conduct we engaged in. In the absence of documented rules (which as Michael points out, neither the Premier League nor the clubs insisted on) that's a pretty reasonable interpretation and absolutely aligned to the judgement of our case.

Yes, the Everton Appeal Commission accepted two grounds. The available benchmarks one, and the 'requirement to act in utmost good faith' one.

But when they tore up the deduction and started again based on available benchmarks, they still considered that we had misled the Premier League and considered that to be an aggravating factor. Even in Everton's own words, we 'objectively misled' the Premier League.

To clarify my earlier point – we didn't get points back just because we appealed. As you seem to think Forest should need to do in order to get the right penalty. The points deduction was changed because the Appeal Commission agreed that the punishment was disproportionate and did not take into account available benchmarks.

Ernie Baywood
53 Posted 19/03/2024 at 12:30:32
Brian @50,

The appeal commission gave 2 back because they said that Everton didn't obstruct the investigation.

When? Where?

I'm feeling pretty confident that it didn't happen.

Brent Stephens
54 Posted 19/03/2024 at 12:50:32
Ernie #52 and #53 - agree on both points.
Danny Baily
55 Posted 19/03/2024 at 12:51:16
Dave 46 and Paul 49, we'll most likely get 6 because i) we've breached allowable losses (3 pts) and ii) it's likely to be considered a significant breach (3 pts). There's no scope for a 2-point deduction. I doubt that any mitigation would be considered against that first count, so a 3-point deduction is best we can hope for.

3 points off and we can stay up. 6 points off and I think we'll go down. Only Top 4 chasing form would likely be enough to keep us up in the latter scenario.

John Keating
56 Posted 19/03/2024 at 13:01:23
I think our second conviction from the "independent" commission will give us the 3 points because of the breach and then additional points depending on the amount of the breach.

Apart from being good boys and agreeing to everything, there appears to be no other mitigating circumstances considered.

Also appears to me that, based on Forest's replies to their points decision, they were under the impression if they behaved they would get a slapped wrist.

The fact the legal eagles representing the Premier League went after them I think came as a complete surprise. I think they'll appeal though I doubt they'll get anything further off.

I still hope the scumbags at the Premier League appeal on the lenient points deduction.

Andy Duff
58 Posted 19/03/2024 at 13:31:41
I think as they are now using the EFL as a benchmark, the second charge will be based on one year only.

My guess is they will say you can lose in total £105M, let's divide that by 3 so your allowable losses for Years 1 and 2 are £70M. So, if we are over a £35M loss for Year 3, then we will be hit.

My second guess is they could say you've been hit for 2 of the 3 years already so 1 third of the charge so 2 points.

Most likely, they'll make it up as they go along and it will all depend on which team upsets them the most as to which goes down.

The fact Everton have been very silent on the Forest decision makes me think there is something going on behind the scenes regarding the second charge.

Dave Abrahams
59 Posted 19/03/2024 at 13:32:54
Danny (55),

Thanks for your reply. I live in hope that the two charges in one season is very unfair as pointed out by our barrister at the appeal to the commission. If he hasn't made that point forcibly enough, he will have make it stronger if another appeal is needed.

Apart from that, I just hope that you are wrong.

Barry Rathbone
60 Posted 19/03/2024 at 13:34:13
People need to read Ernie Baywood @ 27 — the powers that be now have a framework of sorts in place and those transgressing now have precedent to work with.

Yes, we were probably used as the R&D prototype but the model is now up and running and fully explains why Forest got a reduced sentence for good behaviour and we didn't.


Because the authorities effectively said we were playing for time, obfuscating and telling lies, so in that respect we are very lucky to be only 6 points down.

On reading this report and the terse snippets about Everton, the second investigation could see us hung, drawn and quartered

Tony Abrahams
62 Posted 19/03/2024 at 13:49:06
I believe Everton will get at least 15 points from our remaining games, now that the squad has had a chance to regroup, refresh and recuperate.

I also believe that the Premier League will take back the four points they gave us, so I just hope that getting to 36 points will be enough!

Tony Abrahams
63 Posted 19/03/2024 at 14:00:10
A framework that appears to be riddled with inconsistencies.
Jay Harris
64 Posted 19/03/2024 at 14:00:48
I think we will get 3 points adjusted by two thirds to 1 point but that is only conjecture at this point.

More importantly, I think we have 15 very attainable points from our remaining games and at best estimate, Forest will get 13 and Luton will get 10.

Of course, as I always say, the only thing that is certain is that nothing is certain and a lot will depend on confidence and motivation.

I just hope our supporters can create another siege mentality to stick two fingers up at this warped and corrupt Premier League administration.

Brian Williams
65 Posted 19/03/2024 at 14:08:03
6 to 2 is my guess.
Brian Harrison
66 Posted 19/03/2024 at 14:14:52
Ernie @53

I quote Joe Thomas Liverpool Echo's Everton correspondent who said today the original commission stated that Everton purposely misled the commission, but the appeal commission found that we hadn't misled the commission.

The commission dealing with the Forest case say they don't know how the appeal board deciding on Everton's case came to an extra 3 points.

Also probably the most damming part of the 52-page document released on Monday was the experts on the commission say they do not know how Everton's punishment was formulated.

Tom Bowers
67 Posted 19/03/2024 at 14:20:02
Shit happens and Everton have had their share of it last season and this. Time to get things sorted on the pitch.

The Forest deduction is good and the reduction of Everton's even better. This is a sort of wake-up call to get some redemption from the last 10 games.

Okay, we know there are some games they will be lucky to get something out of but others are there for the taking if no silly mistakes are made at the back.

Brent Stephens
68 Posted 19/03/2024 at 14:25:19
Brian #67.

If that's about the new stadium debt, then the Appeal board only said the original Commission were wrong to introduce that point at the end of their report, as those allegations hadn't been made against Everton.

That's not the same as saying we hadn't misled the Commission; the Appeal board drew no conclusions on that point.

Raymond Fox
69 Posted 19/03/2024 at 16:28:40
The form we are now in, we will be fortunate to scrape 12 points from the remaining games and there's every posibility we will be hit with a 4-point deduction, leaving us with only 8 more points. We have only averaged fractionally over 1 point a game at this point.

It is impossible to predict but nevertheless, if we do get another deduction, it's going to be a right scrap between Luton, Forest and ourselves to avoid going down with Sheffield Utd and Burnley.

Oh sweet joy.

Bill Hawker
70 Posted 19/03/2024 at 17:00:08
In reading the posts above, I'm shocked that not one person has mentioned Brentford as being pulled into the mix.

While their remaining matches aren't hard, they aren't easy either and their form as of late has been almost as poor as ours. A couple more losses by them and they'll certainly be feeling the pressure as well if they aren't already.

Charles Ward
71 Posted 19/03/2024 at 17:27:25
Twelve cup finals with some points coming from unexpected sources.

If we go up against Liverpool with them needing a win to stay in with a chance of winning the League, I can see them playing the way they did against a poor Man Utd side (their away form isn't great) with a touch of complacency and arrogance.

The danger will be if they are out of the running for the League and their players are relaxed and playing for possible Europa League Final places.

I can't see us getting anything against Arsenal but again, tension could get to them as well. All the other games – just defend and take our chances!

Andy Crooks
72 Posted 19/03/2024 at 17:37:36
I think we need to stop fretting and moaning about our points deduction. We are not in a relegation position and, if we end up down there, it will be entirely down to Dyche and his squad.

Our run-in suggests that this squad should make us safe. Over to Sean Dyche, do it or go.

Jonathan Oppenheimer
73 Posted 19/03/2024 at 17:56:44
I predict we'll be hit with an 18-point penalty, because these independent commissions are accountable to no one and they'll decide we deserve it for letting Moshiri and Kenwright run us into the ground. But we'll survive by taking all 30 points as Beto and Calvert-Lewin score 10 goals a piece to shock the world.

Seriously, though, this is an utter farce. And yet it's entirely within our hands to grab 15 points from our remaining fixtures. We didn't endure two relegation scraps to be taken down by this bullshit. COYB!

Danny O’Neill
74 Posted 19/03/2024 at 17:57:59
Well said, Andy. Exactly that. It's still in our hands if we win games.

Bill, I've been mentioning Brentford to anyone that will listen for the past month and possibly longer.

Charles Ward
75 Posted 19/03/2024 at 18:04:40

Brentford have gone to pot since Ivan Toney has returned.

Discontent in the camp?

Mark Ryan
76 Posted 19/03/2024 at 18:40:41
Andy Crooks @ 73 spot on. Stop hiding behind the points deduction fiasco.

The rest of the season is for Dyche to get it right or get it wrong. If he keeps us up then fair play to him but I can't see it happening, I think he's had his chance.

Ernie Baywood
77 Posted 19/03/2024 at 19:15:09
Brian @62. The Echo is a clickbait rag. It's actually very sad what it has become.

The Appeal Commission did not find that we had not misled the Premier League. They only removed the charge of not acting in the utmost good faith. They still stated that we had misled the Premier League with incorrect numbers and stuck to that story for a long time.

The Forest Commission did not say they did not know how Everton's punishment was formulated. They made an assumption that it included aggravating factors (specifically, the fact that we misled the Premier League). I suspect they already regret the words they used as they get picked up on by low grade news outlets and repeated out of context... before becoming silver bullets to supporters.

Why read the Echo when you can read the actual report?

Ernie Baywood
78 Posted 19/03/2024 at 19:21:33
And the reason this matters is that the news outlets know how to get their clicks... reading what a shambles we are might be interesting to some but nothing gets people clicking and reading like a bit of outrage.

This club is horrendously mismanaged. The pressure should all be on the owner. I actually wonder whether half of this reporting is Everton propaganda. It's certainly taken the heat off Moshiri.

John Hood
79 Posted 19/03/2024 at 19:30:09
Brentford fan here...

I've been following your discussions with interest. With regard to recent comments re The Bees...

Yes, we are on a terrible run, but it has nothing to do with Toney or discontent. The reason is simply that we have suffered from an unprecedented run of serious injuries. At the moment, there are about 7 or 8 starters who have been unavailable for long periods: Henry, Hickey, Pinnock, Schade, Mee, Da Silva, Mbeumo (who has been superb this season), Norgaard...

Thomas Frank has had to fill in with fringe members of the squad who are struggling. No blame attached to those playing who are trying but a small squad is stretched to the limit.

Best of luck for the rest of the season.

Danny O’Neill
80 Posted 19/03/2024 at 19:36:24
Thanks, John.

I hope Brentford scramble clear with us. I like my days out at Brentford!

I wouldn't wish relegation on anyone, apart from Lucifer's Children.

I've just watched with interest how a previously stable team has gone into free fall. I have a lot of respect for your manager.

If it wasn't for the Stasi (Premier League), we'd be relatively comfortable.

Charles Ward
81 Posted 19/03/2024 at 19:37:53
Thanks to John Hood for that contribution.

Noticeably none of the media outlets have covered those injuries, too busy backing up Ratcliffe's bid to get his mitts on public money for his “Northern Theatre of Dreams”.

Mike Doyle
82 Posted 19/03/2024 at 19:37:56
John @80,

Would you expect Brentford to try and keep or sign Maupay for next season?

John Hood
83 Posted 19/03/2024 at 20:07:14
First of all,apologies for the typos...I do know how to spell INTEREST and the the word SIMPLY got totally mangled.
As a Bee of 63 years' watching,just being in the P.L. and seeing them beat Utd,City,Liverpool,Arsenal etc over the past two and a half seasons is something I would never have dreamed of for much of those years,so thanks Matthew Benham,Dean Smith,Thomas Frank etc for making an old git happy. I've seen us bottom of Division 4 and nearly go out of existence on at least three occasions so the possibility of relegation I can approach with a certain sang froide.
I think we'll stay up with 5 home matches to come but for a club like Brentford, it is a conundrum...do you risk over-spending like Derby,Charlton,Portsmouth,Coventry, Bradford,Oldham etc etc and face the possibility of financial disaster in a season or two or do you not panic and maintain a "Steady as she goes " philosophy?The owner is very shrewd and I know he will not resort to spending the Club cannot afford.
Re Maupay: someone said to me recently that he is Everton's highest scorer in League and Cups this season..not sure if that's true but he's done well for us simply because Frank knows his strengths and plays to them.The way Everton used him was astonishingly misguided,no support,chasing hopeful punts and trying to outjump much bigger defenders.Whether or not he'll sign,who knows but I can't see him playing for the Toffees again.
I was very sorry to read of the deaths of John Hurst and Jimmy Husband,both fine players..I remember Husband being nearly murdered by a Greek team in the early 70s..European Cup,I think,must have been 1971.
For what it's worth,I think we'll both stay up.
And I really hope you beat Liverpool at end of season to spoil that nice Mr Klopp's farewell.
Danny O’Neill
84 Posted 19/03/2024 at 20:10:53
Your last paragraph John.

Get down to Goodison Park. You'll be welcomed with open arms.

Dave Abrahams
85 Posted 19/03/2024 at 20:19:09
John (84), Nice to hear from you John, I’m sure you’ve posted on ToffeeWeb before, regarding the injuries Brentford have suffered over the last few weeks I’m sure Brentford had quite a few players missing through injury earlier in the season when we won at your ground.

I hope Brentford stay up I remember Everton playing Brentford in the second division in the early fifties, and although I never saw them then I think they were in the old first division after the Second World War.

Brian Harrison
86 Posted 19/03/2024 at 20:24:21
John 84

Its always great to hear from fans from other clubs, and like you I am an old git so I can remember going to away grounds and being allowed to mix with the home supporters. There is no doubt your club has done very well and I think Toney being out for so long hasnt helped your cause this season. I think if Toney stays fit he will score enough goals to keep you up, wish we had a striker of that quality. Your right about how we used Maupay under both Lampard and Dyche, he needed to play alongside a main striker not as the main striker.

The Greek team we lost to in the European Cup as it was then was Panathaniakos ( sorry about the spelling) if my memory is working they were managed by the great Hungarian Puskas.

Andy Crooks
87 Posted 19/03/2024 at 21:01:26
Well done, John Hood. It's nice to see a another supporter take the time to join another site and offer well thought out, informed analysis, it is much appreciated.
I did myself taken the time to join another clubs site, some time back as I recall. It was the Westham site " Knees up Mother Brown".
My analysis, was pretty much, to call them a pack of cockney c**ts.
Edward Rogers
88 Posted 19/03/2024 at 21:16:04
Don't rule Crystal Palace out either. Brentford, I hope survive, but they're on a worse run than us.
Dave Abrahams
89 Posted 19/03/2024 at 21:18:17
Brian (87) Yes that Greek team was managed by the great Puskas, I was working in the Adelphi hotel at the time we played them and the morning after the game I bumped into him on the corridor of one of the floors, had a quick chat to him, I told him he had played for great teams, Honved and Hungary, Real Madrid and Spain and then asked how he felt managing those bunch of animals who played at Goodison last night, he just shrugged, maybe he didn’t understand me but he knew I wasn’t happy just by looking at my kipper.

That was the same night they showed the World Heavyweight Boxing match between Ali and Frazier which had been fought the night before, Ali got beat so it wasn’t a great time for me.

Peter Moore
90 Posted 19/03/2024 at 21:33:32
Spot on Lyndon, what a great summary.
Nice one John Hood, I believe Brenford will have enough to stay up comfortably.
It's in our hands as we know.
The ball is just a bag of wind isn't it. That professional, top league players can't leather it into the net for us of late (all season nearly) is quite ridiculous.
DCL, Beto, Garner, McNeil, Harrison, Chermitti, Dobbin, Gomes, Myko, Patto, The Duke all spring to mind as players who do have a shot on them.. surely at least some of them must find their shooting boots in the coming run in.
Performances have on the whole been much better than results of course.
May this break have broken the curse. UTFT.
Paul Birmingham
91 Posted 19/03/2024 at 22:06:15
In the PSR farce that has snared Evertons season, they must now get into full metal jacket mode, and fight to win every one of these games. This they can influence and control.

The EPL board must surely be declared null and void and the current private members club, be banned from all levels of football across the globe. They are not fot to govern the EPL.

A massive couple of months and Everton must start scoring goals.


Paul Kossoff
92 Posted 19/03/2024 at 00:00:45
Sorry Lyndon, "no excuses, couldn't be any better circumstances?" If we had any worse circumstances thrown at us, i, even as an eternal pessimist couldn't bare to think of them. What ever you eat for breakfast please tell me.

We couldn't be in a worse position than we are right now. Our only positive on the horizon would be the C P L only taking two points off us, and three teams actually being as bad as we are. We haven't won since December, we have a striker who is anything but and hasn't scored in what. 23 games, the two other strikers (?) are as bad as him if not worse. Now we are leaking goals. Our owner has disappeared, the possible new owners are apparently skint and as bad a deal as the current. Even a company fitting the outside cladding to the new stadium has just gone into administration!

Couldn't be in better circumstances? If I am the only negative post on here then the rest of you really need to stop eating Lyndon's cereal.I really do dispair.

Jamie Sweet
93 Posted 20/03/2024 at 01:43:13
I agree with Edward (88). It may be unlikely with them already on 29 points, but I would certainly still include Crystal Palace in the relegation conversation.

It's quite conceivable they lose their next two on the road to Forest and Bournemouth, they then face Liverpool and Man City.

Lose those and then they would still very much be in the mix with 6 games to go, none of which are against the current bottom 6 (4 home games against Villa, Newcastle, Man Utd & West Ham, and trips to Fulham and Wolves).

Lyndon Lloyd
94 Posted 20/03/2024 at 01:45:20
Context is everything, Paul (92). It's plainly obvious the club is in an awful situation in terms of league position, Premier League sanctions, the takeover saga, and the very real danger of administration.

What I meant was we could not have asked for better circumstances in terms of the run-in with regard to the form of the teams around us (with two teams seemingly already doomed, unlike last season where it was too soon to predict who might go down with 9/10 games to go), the break giving our players time to rest and recover from injury, and the comparatively favourable run of games we have left.

Do you disagree? Because it could be a lot worse! Or did you just not read the article? 😉

Danny O’Neill
95 Posted 20/03/2024 at 06:22:24
Lyndon, I'll keep repeating, just win games. That's all the team can do and control whilst the madness and circus goes on outside of the football pitch.

This three week break has felt more like three years.

Tony Abrahams
97 Posted 20/03/2024 at 08:04:16
Paul K, P>Read that very last sentence written by the very amiable John Hood @83, and say a little prayer for The Toffees!
Peter Mills
98 Posted 20/03/2024 at 08:41:45
John #79,

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on here. It seems to have become more difficult to have sensible dialogue with supporters of opposing teams over the years.

Ray Jacques
99 Posted 20/03/2024 at 09:08:13
I reckon 34 points keeps you up this season. If we are docked a further 6 points, I don't think we will make it. If it's 2 or 3 points, we can do it. The four home games against the fellow stragglers all need to be won. Odd points elsewhere welcome bonus.

We need to be safe before the final two games. I was hoping not to be playing this "How many points is everyone at the bottom going to get" game this season as it stops me from sleeping in April and May!!

Kunal Desai
100 Posted 20/03/2024 at 11:09:04
I think we've only won something like 24 league games at home or thereabouts in the last 4 seasons.

The home record is abysmal and we've been beaten at home in that time by the likes of Sheffield Utd, Norwich, Luton, Watford to name but a few.

History tells us it's unlikely we're going to win many of those remaining 4 home games based on past performances against opposition we're 'expected' to beat.

More chance of probably getting victories against Chelsea and Newcastle on the road.

Charles Ward
101 Posted 20/03/2024 at 12:09:30
Well hopefully Chelsea’s players won’t be able to sleep the night before we play them.
Mike Gaynes
107 Posted 20/03/2024 at 16:17:52
For anybody interested -- or even anybody who isn't -- WhoScored has done a statistical analysis of every England player's league performance this season to create their own Best XI.

And their numbers say Everton's center-back pairing should be England's.

Tarks leads the PL in blocks and is second in interceptions, 3rd in aerial duels won and 5th in clearances. Jarrad has 41 interceptions. And they're the top-rated English backs.

The statistical choice in goal, however, isn't Picks but Pope, which is kind of weird because he hasn't played in almost four months. But the article traces the Skunks' ongoing defensive collapse to the moment Pope was injured in December.

Anyway, the Guardian posted it

Danny O’Neill
108 Posted 20/03/2024 at 16:26:14
Without reading it Mike, those two have formed a great partnership.

Tarkowski the leader with experience. Branthwaite the apprentice playing above his years. So composed and comfortable on the ball.

I just wish the midfield would take the pressure off them now and again.

And me for that matter!!!

Charles Ward
109 Posted 20/03/2024 at 16:39:53
Let’s ensure we have our defensive solidity available for the rest of the season before putting BOTH our centre backs at risk during the International friendlies.

Call them both up for the Euros by all means.

Robert Williams
110 Posted 20/03/2024 at 17:43:16
I'll tell you what. IF Dyche manages to keep us in the PL after this fiasco, not only will he get a pub named after him, we should name the new Stadium after him - it's that big!!
Bill Gall
111 Posted 20/03/2024 at 18:05:52
Most of what we read is speculation with some facts that people interpret to their line of thinking. There is no harm in debate it is human nature. There is 1 MAJOR FACT that has come out of this ridiculous mess created by the P.L. officialdom.

And that is that S.Dyche and his squad now have to get the club out of a mess that they had no part in creating. We are in a relegation battle that the outcome is in doubt, and a major influx of the remaining points will help to alleviate the feelings of doom that the P.L. seem determined to portray.

Instead of sticking 2 fingers up at the P.L. officialdom lets get behind the team to improve on that with 3pts. per game.

Danny O’Neill
112 Posted 20/03/2024 at 18:42:09
George McKane. Yellow House.

Didn't know where to put this, so please move as appropriate Lyndon & Michael but I wanted it to get visibility.

Others may have received the message. Something George founded and is passionate about as much as he is about Everton.

For those of you who don’t know, Yellow House is a registered charity based in Central Liverpool with over 30 years’ experience. Most of the young people we work with are considered hard to reach for various reasons, however commonly all the young people we work with struggle with their mental health.

Our main aim at Yellow House is to empower young people, by utilising the arts to promote positive mental health and wellbeing.
Our founder George has dedicated his life to Yellow House, but also has a huge devotion to his beloved Everton Football Club, which is why we were delighted that Everton Football Club have donated to Yellow House, a signed 23-24 Everton Shirt.

To raise some much-needed funds, we are looking for donations of £5 per number to enter our lucky prize draw to win the signed shirt! All names will be added to our prize draw.
Entries are unlimited at £5 a go.

If you would be interested in taking part, please make your £5 donation to our local giving appeal at: Link

Here you will be able to leave add a message to your £5 donation.

If you would prefer to do it in person, please get in touch with us via any of our socials or email admin@yellowhouse.org.uk and we can
arrange for this to be sorted.

On 30th May at 5pm we will go live and hold the draw where the lucky winner will be announced - keep your eyes peeled and good luck ☘️

As always, thank you so much for all your support!

Mike Gaynes
114 Posted 20/03/2024 at 00:04:05
John Hood, thanks for your contributions to this thread, and congratulations on the accomplishments of your Bees in the past few years.

One of my closest longtime mates here in the US, an Irishman from Belfast, is a Bees supporter, and I suffered with him through the years as the club suffered one horrendous promotion playoff heartbreak after another before finally clearing the final bar into the Premier League. You've done it right and you richly belong.

I hope to meet you at a match sometime at one of the two new stadiums, yours or ours. My pal and I had hoped to make a trip together and watch games at Goodison and Griffin, but his health prevented it -- his survival from stage 4 cancer has been more complicated than mine -- so I'll stand you to a Guinness in his honor.

Jeff Spiers
115 Posted 21/03/2024 at 11:44:45
Slightly off topic. Interview with ex Blue Tony Grant, over 2 hours, but well worth the watch. You Tube.

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