21/10/2023 63comments  |  Jump to last
Liverpool 2 - 0 Everton

Ashley Young was dismissed for a second bookable offence, leaving Everton to try and hold out for almost an hour

Ashley Young became the latest Everton player to be sent off in a Merseyside derby and the Toffees' stubborn resistance was eventually undermined when Michael Keane's handball allowed the reds to break the deadlock from the spot with 15 minutes to go.

Young was already on a booking for a cynical check on Luis Diaz in the 18th minute and he received his marching orders from Craig Pawson seven minutes before half-time for fouling the same player near the byline.

It ruined yet another Merseyside derby and reduced the Blues to a gameplan of simply trying to hang on before they pivoted towards attack late on after falling behind and were caught two-against-one on the counter-attack deep in stoppage time and Mohamed Salah completed his brace.

Despite Idrissa Gueye being fit again after withdrawing from the win over Bournemouth with a foot injury, Amadou Onana and James Garner kept their places in midfield, with Young again preferred to Nathan Patterson at right-back and Jack Harrison lining up ahead of him in right midfield.

Article continues below video content

Dominic Calvert-Lewin had the first chance of the game when Dwight McNeil swung in a cross before a minute had elapsed but the striker could only head straight at Alisson Becker.

That would the visitors' best of the game because, as expected, Liverpool had the lion's share of possession and chances even before Everton were reduced 10 men.

The reds' best chance appeared to be on the break as Dyche's side left themselves open from attacking set-pieces, with Young getting back well to deflect Diaz's shot behind when the Colombian looked odds-on to score in the 12th minute.

Five minutes later, Liverpool raced away from defending a corner at one end to almost score at the other but this time Onana made an excellent covering tackle to break it up in his own box.

Harrison was fouled by Kostas Tsimikas in the 20th minute for what looked to be the same kind of challenge as the one for which Young was fouled but the referee was nonplussed by James Tarkowski's protestations.

Tarkowski's trip on Diogo Jota gave the Portuguese the chance to try and beat Jordan Pickford from a direct free-kick but could only drive his shot into the defensive wall and when Salah barged McNeil off the ball three minutes later, he could only sweep a curling effort over the crossbar.

The complexion of the game changed completely, though, when Young jumped in recklessly on Diaz and chopped him down just outside the area and, after a pause from referee, was shown a second yellow card.

Trent Alexander-Arnold smashed a shot a couple of feet over at one end and McNeil forced Alisson into tipping the ball over his own bar at the other but it was goalless at the halfway stage.

Sean Dyche switched to a more defensive posture to start the second half, withdrawing Harrison and McNeil and throwing Keane and Patterson on in their stead and for half an hour, the Blues were holding steady.

Tarkowski's excellent block denied Salah a clear shot at goal from about eight yards out and he followed that up by repelling Jota from the rebound in the 52nd minute.

Dyche then replaced Calvert-Lewin with Beto but, naturally, it was Jürgen Klopp's men who continued to threaten, Patterson surviving howls for a penalty when Diaz went down in the box under his challenge but a minute later, Keane gave Pawson, who had earlier waved away appeals for a second yellow card for Ibrahima Konaté, the pretext to award the decisive spot-kick.

Diaz's cross had struck the defender's out-stretched hand and while the referee had opted not to blow for a penalty, Video Assistant Referee David Coote advised him to take another look on the pitch-side monitor and he duly reversed his decision.

Salah drove home the resulting penalty and it was, effecitively, game over with 15 minutes of the 90 to go.

Pickford saved from Jota, substitute Darwin Nunez's centre ricocheted off Jarrad Branthwaite and narrowly behind, Pickford did superbly to push Harvey Elliott's stinging long-range shot onto the bar and over, and Jota fizzed one into the side-netting as the reds tried to kill the game.

They did that as Everton tried to force an unlikely equaliser and were undone on the break as Nunez and Salah tore away and the Egyptian converted the Uruguayan's pass to make it 2-0.


Reader Comments (63)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer ()

Tim Greeley
1 Posted 21/10/2023 at 19:43:43
First read I saw it as Keane's handball “allowed the refs to break the deadlock” and I think it should actually be that…
Jack Convery
2 Posted 21/10/2023 at 19:45:39
It was ever thus.

Pawson a disgrace. Everton and the other also-rans are a disgrace for going along with the awful officialdom of matches when playing the so-called big teams. The Premier Leaguefor not having the balls to do anything about it either are a disgrace.

Until a team walks off when an obvious piece of biased referring has taken place, ie, Konate not getting a second yellow, nothing will change. Refuse to carry on the game. Face up to the powers that be – otherwise, it will continue to be ever thus.

Barry Hesketh
3 Posted 21/10/2023 at 19:57:57
I've just watched the highlights on Everton TV, if every player was booked twice for the 'offences' that Young committed in today's game, it would be five-a-side by half-time, in most games.

First one doesn't even seem to me to be a foul, the second one, possibly a yellow, but that happens about a dozen times in a match without a card being shown.

Ernie Baywood
4 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:08:42
We have a genuine complaint about Konate. And about Tsimikas not being booked.

I thought they were pretty lenient with Patterson's challenge in the area just before the handball.

I don't think you can credibly complain about the Young second yellow or the Keane handball. I reckon the vast majority of objective observers would give both of those.

But there's a reason that we don't get the rub of the green. We don't have the ball. The team that has the ball isn't committing offences.

I'm not advocating for all-out possession. I'm advocating for just wanting some of the ball. You can't play this game with no regard for retaining the ball. From half-time we seemingly made a conscious decision to not contribute to the game. McNeil is the one player who can do something with a ball – and we took him off. If the opposition are playing in your third then something will likely give... might be a penalty, a deflection, something. They could push there because they knew nothing was coming back.

This result means little. No-one expects us to get anything there. You don't judge a season on that match. But the same issues pervade – we always have less intent than we should have. It's been true in most games this season.

And the ones that got away at Goodison against relegation rivals are the more telling. In those games, we had more intent than at Anfield – but far less than we should have had given the strength of the opposition.

Tim Welsh
5 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:15:58
Absolutely agree, Jack.

Since Bryan Hamilton's disallowed goal in 1977, I have witnessed more and more mystifying decisions benefit the RS, or compromise us. A sending-off for Rodwell... none for Kuyt... Hutchinson's injury time winner... Alan Hansen's handball – the list goes on... and on...

Have the media ever tried joining the dots? Never.

We should hand a video document to the authorities and tell them enough is enough.

A couple of weeks ago, Klopp threw his dummy out of his pram, and look at the refereeing since. They are running football, probably because 'they sell the Premier League brand around the world.

I am sure that we are not the only team to suffer like this, which should only mean that all the other teams should collectively revolt against the hegemony of those clubs who are running our game.

If football had started like this in 1888 it would have lasted about 3 years.

Will Mabon
6 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:18:20
I didn't study Keane's handball earlier; now I have, a dozen times.

Forget all the balance and running style stuff - it was frankly terrible. Watch the angle from the outside/corner flag area. He extends his arm unnaturally high and way out in front, basically asking for it to be hit.

You could sell that move in a corruption plot for a movie.

Brendan McLaughlin
7 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:25:39
Will #6,

"asking for it to be hit"

Exactly what I thought as I watched it.

Will Mabon
8 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:40:07
I'd like to hear what Dyche and the other players said to him, Brendan.
Derek Thomas
9 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:52:05
Is Dyche the only person who doesn't know that Keane is always a mistake waiting to happen? That Young gets booked almost every game?

If you defend you have to be lucky all the time, they only need to get lucky once... well twice in their case; but - most of all - form like this at Anfield will always bite you in the bum.

Anyway, by now I sadly expected nothing else, these County Road Casuals consistently find their own failings... both on and off the field... aided and abetted by PGMOL and their Premier League paymasters - yet another way to hand it to them.

Hey Ho, West Ham next... did Dyche, with very early for him subs, have half an eye on this too?

Will Mabon
10 Posted 21/10/2023 at 22:56:17
"Hey Ho, West Ham next...did Dyche, with very early for him Subs, have half an eye on this too?"

I hope we're not reduced to that quite yet, Derek :-O

Ashley Roberts
11 Posted 22/10/2023 at 00:20:33
I see that the folks on MotD said that Konate was a stone wall second yellow and so he should have been sent off.

I hope Pawson gets benched for his biased officiating today.

Without the penalty, I don't see Liverpool scoring either. We just never get the rub of the green.

Bob Parrington
12 Posted 22/10/2023 at 01:04:50
It was clear from the first few minutes that the ref was against Everton. Just needed to watch his body language. Guy should be benched by the Premier League for his bias.
Don Alexander
13 Posted 22/10/2023 at 03:32:55
Tim (#5), you're 100% right.

Such travesties destroy the so-called sport.

It's long since been beyond a joke.

Ernie Baywood
14 Posted 22/10/2023 at 06:45:42
Ashley, it won't happen.

Liverpool's and Klopp's job is to get decisions in their favour.

The problem is that they're being enabled by the FA and by the PGMOL. Refs get sidelined, removed from future Liverpool games. The message is really clear – make a big call against Liverpool and you'd better be bloody certain you've got it right because they'll damage your career.

The rest of us make do.

The Blue Room made a very good point on their podcast. Imagine the decisions against the teams being reversed, ie, the Liverpool player is sent off, the Everton full-back not booked, and the Everton centre-back not booked a second time ahead of two late Everton goals. It's hard to do because it just wouldn't happen. But could you imagine the uproar if it did?

Mark Andersson
15 Posted 22/10/2023 at 08:34:42
This is why I don't invest any time or emotion in the derby games...

I would not get any satisfaction out of winning if I were a Liverpool supporter but they do because they, like their team, are cheats.

Paul Birmingham
16 Posted 22/10/2023 at 08:48:09
In view of the FFP review, perhaps Everton won't challenge the PGMOL over the performance of the cack house referee and the VAR.

It was written in the stars that this would happen after the Spurs game. Everton won't be asking for a replay.

Now to detox from the RS and beat West Ham.


Rick Tarleton
17 Posted 22/10/2023 at 09:03:19
Young wasn't unlucky, Konate was.

Funnily enough, it seems "big" teams get more lucky decisions than teams in the lower half of the table. Referees know which side their bread is buttered.

The penalty was routine in the modern world; Arsenal's at Chelsea was similarly judged and was equally wrong. The arm is part of the body, it is totally natural that when adjusting your position it is separated from the body for purposes of balance. There used to be a saying "ball to hand, not hand to ball". That is common sense.

The very strict refereeing means that nowadays two heavy tackling fouls means a dismissal which seems ridiculous, yet it happens so often nowadays. However, certain offences: pulling, holding, obstructing are totally immune from punishment.

The VAR has solved nothing since it is a tool run by referees whose primary purpose is to support referees' decisions. If the referee in the eyes of the VAR has got it wrong, he sends him over to the monitor and talks to him to get him to change his mind; rarely does the VAR directly intervene.

Ironically yesterday, Pawson's instinctive decision over the penalty was probably correct, but the referees' current dictat regarding balls and hands was not met so he was instructed to change his mind.

Consistency is the mantra, but Konate's escape suggests that it is never the case. Home sides and "big" sides, especially when the two are combined get the favourable decisions. Pawson is a referee who favours big sides, but he isn't alone unfortunately.

Christine Foster
18 Posted 22/10/2023 at 09:09:14
I said on the pre-match thread that commitment and attitude can counter skill, all things being equal. I forgot; they're not. Not when you have a referee such as Pawson. When does incompetence cross the line to bias or corruption?

Is it pre-planned or discussed beforehand? Is it analysed and discussed afterwards? Privately I mean? Is there an unspoken understanding?

Because it's not just bad luck, not just random errors of judgement, it's gone much further than that.

Did Young deserve both bookings? Possibly. Did Konate by the same measure? Stone cold right.

Did we deserve to win? No, but neither did they. It was a gift-wrapped 3 points, an early Christmas present. Courtesy of the PGMOL.

You see, it's so blindingly obvious, we miss it. We don't believe deep down it could possibly be true. That it's fixed, a planned bias.

Every single referee is smeared because of it. The game has given up the premise of a level playing field. So, as we await the findings of an independent commission for god knows what, I feel like a sacrificial lamb being led to the slaughter, an offering to appease truth.

I am falling out of love with the Premier League; top flight? Not for me.

Paul Hewitt
19 Posted 22/10/2023 at 09:27:35
Christine @18.

The Premier League has been corrupt for years, you would have to be blind not to see it. If Everton ain't playing then I won't watch it. I even watch non-league first. The sooner the Super League arrives and the corrupt six go away, the better.

James Newcombe
20 Posted 22/10/2023 at 09:39:54
Happened to me a long time ago, Christine - during the Manchester United years of dominance. There was even an ongoing joke about Fergie Time as if it's all just a funny coincidence.

I do often ask myself why I even bother anymore. You may as well watch wrestling these days, especially with the VAR. I have a big mood lift if Everton win, and that's it.

Tony Everan
21 Posted 22/10/2023 at 09:41:09
Imagine Ashley Young is on a yellow card, then hauls down a breaking away Mo Salah.

Pawson would have his yellow out immediately and send him off. I can even see his facial expression to Young, saying ‘You've given me no choice'.

Well said Christine, 18, the referee incompetence or ‘Konate was a lucky boy' comments don't wash any more. It's more than that.

Mike Doyle
22 Posted 22/10/2023 at 10:08:01
Plainly Konate should have gone. However, 60 years of watching these games makes me think the RS would have found or been given a 99th minute winner or another of our players would have been sent off (Tarkowski was on a yellow so probably him).

But, as other posters have mentioned, we never help ourselves with our pathetic ball retention figures – and our passing, particularly against the better sides, is appalling.

Can I make an early but safe prediction that next season we will lose at Anfield – and have a player sent off.

Brian Harrison
23 Posted 22/10/2023 at 10:23:13
Look, Klopp knew what he was doing when he was demanding the Spurs game be replayed and the red cards be rescinded. He set the narrative that, in the coming weeks, referees and VARs would be bending over backwards to put a Liverpool slant on their decisions.

As for Ashley Young already on a yellow making that challenge, for an experienced player to make such a mistake was unforgiveable.

Also, there is no debate, not even from Klopp, that Konate should have been sent off for a second bookable offence, and I haven't seen anybody disagree with that.

Our best and probably only chance in the game came in the first few minutes when Calvert-Lewin had the chance to put us ahead.

I thought that the players put in a shift and their effort couldn't be faulted, I know Salah scored twice but I can't remember a game were he was less effective which was all down to Mykolenko, who I thought was our best player.

I was hoping that Garner playing more central would have a bigger impact than he did, and while defensively Onana made some great tackles and defensive headers, neither showed any ambition to want to get forward when it was 11 v 11.

Also, worryingly we looked very vulnerable when we had a corner as they broke with pace and often outnumbered us by 2 to1 while we tried to get back into our defensive shape.

I do wonder why we don't win more headers from corners given the height of Branthwaite, Onana, Calvert-Lewin, Tarkowski, Doucoure and Mykolenko.

Most opposition sides target Young as they obviously see him as a weakness, but Dyche has preferred him to both Mykolenko and Patterson this season. I thought Dyche had brought him in as a back-up, not as a starter in most games.

What our academy full-backs must think, I have no idea, when they have a 38-year-old ahead of them as well as a current Scotland international full-back, and neither will start when our 36-year-old captain is fit again.

I think that Dyche not only changes players on a regular basis but also changes systems on a weekly basis, so how any team is going to build up understanding and cohesion when there are so many changes, I don't know.

Also, I wish he would stop putting his hand in front of his mouth when talking to any of his assistants. I just think he looks stupid. Just pick a team you believe is the best and stick with a formation they all understand, surely that shouldn't be too difficult, even for Dyche.

It's obvious that Dyche, not Thelwell, signed Young as he plays him all the time but doesn't seem to like Danjuma, who wasn't Dyche's choice, as he seems to prefer McNeil and now a fit Harrison.

Rick Tarleton
24 Posted 22/10/2023 at 10:33:55
Let's be careful how we label referees. They aren't consciously corrupt, but they have an enhanced sense of enlightened self-interest.

A young referee has made progress and reaches the dizzy heights of the Premier League. He's determined to be honest and impartial and in his first game at Old Maine Road, he gives a penalty, not a clear cut, but one rather like Keane's yesterday, against the home side.

In the next week, he meets a senior referee, or a just retired referee, let's call him Howard Deane (sic), and the well respected senior figure has a chat.

"Good game you had last week at White Heart Highbury (or wherever). But let me give you a bit of advice from an old pro. You want to get to ref the big games at Wembley, Cup Finals etc and you want to get on the FIFA list. Then it pays to go easy on the 50/50 decisions against the big teams.

"When I was doing the job at Trafford Lane (or wherever), I always wanted Arsene Ferguson on my side for future occasions. If you get a decision wrong, the VAR will back you and, if it's a real howler, they'll tell you to go over to the monitor and you'll be a human who can change his mind, not inflexible." Wink-wink, nod-nod.

So our referee joins Pawson, Mariner, Attwood et alia making sure he's looking after his career.

Corrupt? Not exactly, but Bournemouth, Wolves, Everton aren't going to get many 50-50 decisions.

Barry Rathbone
25 Posted 22/10/2023 at 10:34:23
Had a quick look at the highlights and it was the usual fayre from us but what struck me was Liverpool didn't look arsed. It wasn't a derby as such more a run out against Coventry or similar in their eyes.

Their #7 tore us a new one and they outnumbered us charging through on several occasions as we huffed and puffed like Billy Bunter.

They didn't bother getting out of first gear, such was the disparity, and the bleating about Young getting sent off and Keane's handball are laughable. The 2 yellows were spot on as was the penalty.

The Liverpool player got away with one but does anyone seriously think they wouldn't have upped their game at what they would have deemed an "injustice"?

As predictable as night following day.

Kevin Turner
26 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:08:01
Young let us down but Dyche was wrong not to give him the hook after the first booking.

Keane should not pull on a blue shirt again. He's worth a goal a game to the opposition.

Danny O’Neill
27 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:14:20
To the naked eye, Christine, it does border on corruption and even match-fixing.

Ashley Young deserved to go. By the current laws of the game, it was a penalty. Although I wouldn't say it was deliberate handball.

The Liverpool player deserved to go. They knew it, hence him being hastily withdrawn. The ref will know it watching that back. Why isn't the VAR used for those decisions if the ref decides he can't make it?

I can't put too much fault on the players' effort yesterday, but by the end they were tired and the strikers cutting a forlorn isolated hope.

Tactically, the manager played his cards with those changes at half-time and cut out any form of attacking intent we had.

Rob Dolby
28 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:16:34
Barry 25,

Are you not giving any credit to our team for keeping the game even until the penalty?

The best chance from either team up until the penalty was Calvert-Lewin in the first minute.

Dyche set the team up to frustrate and it worked. We are shopping in the bargain bin, what do you want?

Did you actually watch the entire match or just highlights?

A lot of our players did great work for the full 90, mostly off the ball against a team that have lost a handful of games in a couple of seasons.

How would you have set us up differently to get a result there?

Dave Abrahams
29 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:45:04
Brian (23),

In every game that Everton win a corner, I always worry about the opposition making quick breakaways from it. happens every game and Liverpool were ready to do that the few times we won a corner with five players breaking quickly to attack the fewer number of Everton defenders.

Doucoure made one retrieving tackle, Onana a terrific tackle and Young did the same – all from Liverpool's fast attack from Everton's corners.

I couldn't understand McNeil coming off, one of the few players who can hold the ball and IS comfortable with it, he did his share of defending as well.

Harrison didn't cover Young very well, although not denying Young was very foolish with those two tackles. I understood Brian Wilkinson explaining what we would have thought of Young if he hadn't made that second tackle, the first one was the most stupid further up the fIeld and less danger.

Neil Copeland
30 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:49:30
I am not saying that Ashley Young didn't deserve 2 yellows but why did Pawson hesitate before giving either? To me, he played to the baying Mordor mob. Also, he put his hand to his earpiece (clear as day in front of the away support) before deciding to brandish the second yellow.

The Greek lad for them committed 3 fouls without punishment before Young's first.

Pawson didn't even consider a second yellow for Konate's challenge – no way was he giving a card. Having both teams on 10 men may not have made any difference, of course, and may have even resulted in a more open game which could have helped them more than us. We will never know, of course, but it would be nice just for once to not have the officials showing blatant bias.

Corrupt? Normally I would say no; yesterday was different though, particularly the hand to the earpiece moment. Fuck them.

Did we deserve to win? No. Overall, we battled very well without creating much but still missed the best chance of the game. To get anything from there, we have to raise our game to a whole new level and even then it may not be enough.

Moving Keane on would be a good step I think but who do we play in his place if Tarkowski or Branthwaite pick up an injury or suspension? Centre-half is No 1 priority in the January window, imo.

The away support showed its appreciation to the team that gave everything; that says a lot. We are improving most definitely although there is a long way to go.

The best moment for me came before the game. I had walked up through the edge of Stanley park and along the road that leads to the Main Stand (Anfield Road?) when the 2 RS team buses came along.

I took great pleasure in walking along with one finger in the air to the buses which were moving at a similar pace. I turned away from them so I could watch the faces of the RS supporters – the looks were priceless on the mostly foreigner faces taking pictures. Not sure how I didn't get arrested though!

Christine Foster
31 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:58:24
Danny, yes, Dyche made the decision to hold out for a draw.

He tried it against Arsenal; we lost. Again yesterday; we lost. We can point to 10 men, but we had already thrown in the towel at half-time. The disappointment I felt when both wingers were withdrawn for a back 5 was indescribable.

Just a little note for Sean Dyche: we are incapable of defending like this, we make too many unforced errors. Why? Because the players are just not good enough. He knows it but is too frightened to go with the old maxim: the best way to defend is to attack.

In short, he lacks the wotsits to go for it. 2-0 and a game where we just turned up and did nothing except try to stop them. We are not good enough to defend or attack… but Everton are better attackers than defenders, so what the hell – just try.

Neil Copeland
32 Posted 22/10/2023 at 11:59:18
Something else about yesterday; I always park off St Domingo Road where it is £8 but safe and not too bad to get away from.

Yesterday, the charge was £10! I asked the lad why and he just shrugged and said "Well, it's Liverpool, isn't it?" I said "That just means you are robbing bastards!" He laughed and said "Well we are the better team!"

Sums up those horrible twats very nicely, they even over-charge their own.

Rob Dolby
33 Posted 22/10/2023 at 12:04:05
Rick 24, I kind of agree with you.

It's probably the same in most leagues, the big teams that have the power get the decisions.

You're not going to bite the hand that feeds you, I suppose.

Cricket had an issue with home umpires for similar, being polite, unconscious bias. International umpires made a massive difference then technology has taken it to a new level.

Maybe we should be looking at using international refs, can't be any worse.

Rob Dolby
34 Posted 22/10/2023 at 12:13:01
Christine 31,

You wanted us to go all out attack away from home with 10 men at nil-nil?

If we would have got beat 6-0, would you have had some satisfaction knowing Dyche put on an extra 2 attackers and took 2 defenders off when the game was still in the balance?

Dyche has a reputation of hard-working unspectacular football. He isn't going to change that at half-time in a derby. You said it yourself, we aren't very good at either end of the pitch. His job is to keep us in the Premier League – nothing more, nothing less.

It's frustrating and it isn't going to change any time soon.

Brian Harrison
35 Posted 22/10/2023 at 12:27:45
Sadly, I think yesterday just highlighted how far we have fallen as a club. The only ambition the manager had was to defend and, apart from the Calvert-Lewin header in the first few minutes, we were never an attacking force.

Maybe some will say playing a top 6 side away is all were capable of but we have been 2nd best in possession stats against teams not in the top 6. This is a mindset that is always there when we go to Anfield. Our manager, our players don't go there with any belief and it shows.

Yes, Konate should have gone but, even if it had been 10 v 10, does anybody really believe we would have gone on and tried to win the game?

They exude a massive superiority complex when they play us and we all know that isn't going to change for a long time, when all this club's ambition is to try and survive in the Premier League – and it seems our managers believe the only way that's achievable is to set out to defend.

Christine Foster
36 Posted 22/10/2023 at 12:30:41
Rob, not stupid,mate.

Patterson had to come on, sacrifice Doucouré but we had no outlet. Calvert-Lewin on his own, no midfield to hold up for or winger to lay off, the ball came straight back.

The tactic was to pack our box and we clearly are not good enough to do that.

David Hallwood
37 Posted 22/10/2023 at 12:32:13
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, far from it, in fact one of the more disturbing aspects of Covid was the amount of people I know that went down the rabbit hole. However, to counter that, to quote the old saying: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

So are referees corrupt, incompetent, or a mixture of both? I go for corrupt.

Next question: how can they be in plain sight of millions of people and god knows how many cameras?

Let's split the pitch into business and non-business. In the non-busines, here the corrupt official can give the soft decisions to the team he wants or needs to lose so he and they can argue, “I'm only human and it's swings and roundabouts.” Or the penalty call, which was in Everton's favour but in the certain knowledge it was going upstairs and would be overturned.

What's needed is someone a lot more techie than me, to splitscreen the Tsimikas and Young fouls and of course the two second yellows, both hugely influential in the business end.

Obviously corruption needs to be smart, so if Calvert-Lewin had put the chance away in the 1st minute, and say Onana had scored a worldie to make it 2, there's not a lot they can do about that, but what they can do is put their collective thumb on the scales, so in the long term they will always get the desired results.

Paranoid? Possibly, but I challenge anyone to sit down and watch the game without the passion and heat of battle, with a notepad and just observe and note down the corruption in plain sight.

So what will happen to Pawson? Well the short answer is nothing, he'll be back reffing next week, with the full support of the Politburo, who as we know, never make mistakes.

So what needs to be done? I think clubs should bypass the formal channels that are less than useless and go online possibly using fan channels on the QT, and have a post-match analysis with not only the game-changing decisions of these bent fuckers but how and why they decisions, especially favourable ones to the team that's being dumped on, and where they're being given.

Frankly, I'm fuckin sick of it and it's never going to change while the FA are accountable to no one.

Mike Connolly
39 Posted 22/10/2023 at 12:48:04
I was not sure the ref was officiating the game, he appeared to be listening on his headset before making any decisions.

However, I think Dyche has to take some of the blame for bringing on that numpty Keane. How many goals has he cost us over the seasons? Yet Dyche looks for any excuse to get him on the pitch.

I think he got dropped last time because pressure from the fans wanted Branthwaite in. Hopefully our luck will change when we move to the new stadium.

Robert Tressell
40 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:01:22
Sadly, we are always playing both the team and the referee at Anfield. Nothing new. A Liverpool player probably wouldn't have got a yellow for Young's first offence, and that obviously changes the nature of the game. There was a good chance of a nil-nil with 11 men on the pitch.

After the sending-off, let's be honest, a poor 10-man team did okay with a rear-guard action for about half an hour or so but defeat was probably inevitable. I don't think a single one of our players would have got in their first XI yesterday.

All this talk of substitutions etc is pointless. There were just a series of really bad options available after the sending-off, such is the severe weakness of our squad.

Infuriating and unfair, but we move on. We'll have better referees, performances and results etc over the course of the season.

If there is one positive to come out of this, it might be that Young may lose his place to Patterson from now on, because Young has been pretty awful generally and Patterson definitely needs more games if he's to improve.

Tom Bowers
41 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:05:51
I suppose we have to say it was another non-event in the Everton season and, as far as derbies go, so typical of what we have to expect these days.

Who knows how the result would have ended up being had it not been for Young's ineptitude?

The 10 men were within 15 minutes of normal time when RS got their usual slice of luck that has given them so many Derby victories.

On paper, they should win 90% of these games given the endless bank account allowing them to lure in a huge depth of top players but it still comes down to a sending off and a penalty to get all 3 points.

We now have to hope that Everton knuckle down and scrape out a few points against the likes of Bournemouth until big money becomes available (if ever) as winning against the top money teams will become even moore difficult.

Rick Tarleton
42 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:19:22
The referees aren't "Consciously Corrupt". They aren't taking a brown envelope of used tenners. But they are aware of wider factors that could affect their career and prospects. So they make the easy choice of backing the big boys or even the home side.

Everton were away against a perceived big boy. Pawson would vigorously protest that he was corrupt and in his mind he isn't. However, that doesn't mean he's totally objective or unbiased.

By the way, didn't Barcelona have a ref on the payroll? That's real corruption.

Richard Nelson
43 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:24:31
Not picking on the manager... but... did he select Ashley Young, a 38-year-old (facing the likes of Diaz, who is nearly as quick as Mbappe)...because Nathan Patterson got "roasted" by Mbappe in the week?

And then failed to do what Klopp (without a moment's hesitation) did, by withdrawing a vulnerable player already on a yellow?

James Hughes
44 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:32:24
It is unusual when even the pundits are saying that the decisions were inconsistent, as the RS are normally their favourites.

The referees need to held accountable and complete post-match interviews to explain decisions. If that means we have to pay them more, then fine by me. In the grand scheme of things they are paid about the same as a kid in the U21s.

Maybe higher pay means higher standards from officials?

John Kavanagh
45 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:49:47
I said on the the thread the day before the match that I thought we would show commitment, buy also stated that my biggest fear would be the refereeing because Klopp already had IOUs from Webb, PGMOL and the FA for the VAR decision. These will be worth up to 15 points for them this season.

And so it came to pass. I thought we could get up to two sendings off and two penalties, but we just got one of each. Had Calvert-Lewin scored in the first minute and not been VARed for an invisible infraction, then I've no doubt Pawson would have levelled things up for them within a few minutes. Had we posed any significant threat of an equaliser, then I'm certain Tarkowski would have gone as well.

An Everton museum should have a rogues gallery of all the bent refs who've done us over the years (especially against that lot), with videos of their most infamous decisions.

We did quite well with ten men, but an RS penalty was inevitable. I'm just very disappointed with the substitutions that obliterated any attacking threat in the second half.

Tommy Carter
46 Posted 22/10/2023 at 13:59:18
I have not commented for a while. I feel compelled to by way of trying to express myself.

Dyche has commented this week about metrics and use of data. And whilst saying he won't rely upon it, he also said he won't ignore it.

In that sense then I can only assume that the data somehow justifies the repeated inclusion of Ashley Young in the starting XI.

Because data and metrics aside, I can see that he is repeatedly targeted by the opposition as the weak link. And has been exposed as such both on the right and the left in instances that have cost us matches. Yesterday being another example of this.

Why Dyche has persisted with him for so long is astonishing really as his own job depends on it. And putting such trust in a 38-year-old attacking midfielder that has been converted into a makeshift full-back is going to be his undoing.

Clearly, Young, much like Michael Keane should be relied upon only as an absolute last resort. And as Keane showed us again yesterday – he is liable for a disaster in almost every fixture.

Yet Dyche has been insistent upon these players being part of his starting XI. He only picked Branthwaite when forced to do so.

He was absolutely intent on Keane being his Number 1 centre-back. He has been absolutely intent that Ashley Young is a starting full-back in his team.

He is a self-limiting manager, much like Moyes was. Only he sets the bar lower than Moyes.

Rob Dolby
47 Posted 22/10/2023 at 14:32:19
Christine 36, I never said 'stupid'.

You're as frustrated as the rest of us.

That wasn't far from our strongest team yesterday. Maybe Coleman for Young?

You can swap and change players and formations from the current squad but the reality of it is we aren't very good at either end of the pitch. Down to 10 men, I would expect a defensive mindset even at home to the bottom team.

Charles Brewer
48 Posted 22/10/2023 at 15:05:02
Yesterday's problems began and ended with the referee. If Young had received anything like equitable treatment - the first yellow was at least 50% RS seeing a leg to fall over and making the most of things, the second was a harmless poorly timed challenge worthy of a free kick but nothing else - he'd have finished the match or (and maybe and) Kounate would have received two yellow cards for very deliberate fouls, and neither of Young's were.

Dyche's problem was that playing with a man down against a team where you are going to be running about a great deal is going to be very tiring and the last thing you want is the entire team exhausted after 80 minutes, it's a guaranteed way to ship goals.

Perhaps leaving one winger on would have been beneficial, but deciding that the bent refereeing was going to have fatal effects and that parking the bus was the better (if not a good) option is an easy argument. Indeed the difference between the teams was Patterson failing to get his boot out far enough for a block and a momentary piece of stupidity from Keane. Other than that the RS never looked like scoring. (A 97th minute 2nd goal with 10 Everton players in the opposition penalty area would not have happened if it had been 0-0).

Dyche had an extremely difficult call at half time, and having seen the defence untroubled for the first 45 minutes probably reasoned that the RS had no serious threat (he was right) and that bolstering the defence was the most likely course of action for a successful outcome - i.e. a draw.

Andy Meighan
49 Posted 22/10/2023 at 17:07:25
Let this digest.

Pawson had reffed that crew 35 times before yesterday's game, and hadn't issued a single yellow or red against them.

Now call me paranoid but that absolutely stinks.

An absolute shit ref and an absolutely horrible human being.

And I'd stake my life that he'll be kept away from any of our games in the future. A la Clattenburg.

Tony McNulty
50 Posted 22/10/2023 at 17:55:07
Tough playing against 12 men (when one of them holds the whistle) and you only have 10 men.

The explanation for the Konate decision could be that they decided to give Klopp his replay, handicap the opposition at the same time, thus ensuring a win.

I wonder if Pawson feels any embarrassment when he knows that fans, pundits and managers all think he is an incompetent plonker?

Tony Dunn
51 Posted 22/10/2023 at 20:32:07
Danny O'Neill, the Adelphi inside reminds me of the film The Shining
Tony Abrahams
52 Posted 22/10/2023 at 20:39:59
You wouldn’t get Jack Torrence staying in the Adelphi!
Alan McGuffog
53 Posted 22/10/2023 at 20:42:11
The Adelphi... only place I've ever stayed where the room doors opened outwards. Strange.
Tony Abrahams
54 Posted 22/10/2023 at 20:55:35
I think it was built by an Irish company, Alan!

Only messin….

Neil Copeland
55 Posted 22/10/2023 at 21:11:57
Good in a fire situation though…..,
Rob Dolby
57 Posted 22/10/2023 at 23:11:46
I know it's irrelevant now but any idea where the 9 minutes of injury time came from when the trainer didn't come on the pitch once in the 2nd half?

Anyone know how the extra time is calculated, it appears to be a bit of a dark art to me and so random. 2 mins in the first half was nearly 3 mins or until Liverpool stopped attacking.

Tom Bowers
58 Posted 22/10/2023 at 23:37:38
In all the derby matches I've seen in my 70 years of being a Blue, the only decision I have seen go our way was when Pickford did Rip Van Dijk.

I can never forget the goal that Clive Thomas cheated us out of at Maine Road and there have been many other incidents.

However, notwithstanding that we were never going to get anything yesterday once the ill-disciplined Young got the red. I think he was a bad acquisition to begin with and he is not up to Premier League standard anymore.

Yes, we were kinda optimistic with 15 minutes to go but somehow Everton always find a way to lose it late when other teams can shut up shop with 10 men.

Paul Birmingham
59 Posted 22/10/2023 at 00:09:39
Groundhog Day, as the most guaranteed bent result in the Premier League.

It's embarrassing, but yesterday's referee must be punished, he has brought the rules of the game into disrepute, no arguments. All quarters in the media have condoned his pathetic lack of control.

Except PGMOL.

Next season, we boycott playing the RS at our old ground as it is rigged.

Saturday's game was a new statistic in the last 50 years of this game at our old ground.

I hope the local media start smelling the facts…


Eric Myles
60 Posted 23/10/2023 at 02:36:41
I don't think you can credibly complain about the Young second yellow or the Keane handball/

Agree on the Young yellow. I read in the pre-match thread someone posting that Young should not start 'cos he'd get sent off.

The Keane handball used to be called "ball to hand" and was not an offence if the defender did not do it deliberately. Looked to me that Keane's arm was in a natural position as you would expect for someone running, you don't run with your hands in your pockets, do you! And it did not prevent a clear goalscoring opportunity.

This ridiculous rule needs reverting back to ball to hand and then the ref can look at VAR to determine if there was deliberate movement, not just an automatic offence 'cos it struck a defender.

Jerome Shields
61 Posted 23/10/2023 at 05:50:00
I thought Keane got caught out of position and too close to the defender in front of him. He extended the arm to block the ball to put off the crossing forward. He did this deliberately.

On his right side, he is never comfortable defending and is prone to error. Anyone looking at that extended arm would have given a penalty. It was careless what Keane did.

Charles Brewer
62 Posted 23/10/2023 at 09:55:28
I reckon that any ball-hand/arm contact in the penalty area should be a penalty, that would make matters simple and straight-forward and would reduce the opportunity for referees to get involved.

But then I also think that Arsene Wenger's view on offsidee is good – a player is only offside if there is clear daylight between the last defender and the attacker, having a nose or a shoulder past the heel of a defender is not an advantage.

Bob Parrington
63 Posted 23/10/2023 at 12:46:09

I've watched this time and time again. There was zero arm or hand movement by Keane. No penalty by any sensible analysis here.

If the rule book doesn't reflect this, then change the rule book, IMO.

Tommy Carter
64 Posted 23/10/2023 at 21:29:04
Tom @58.

That and the last-minute winner that was disallowed went for us.

Maybe it existed in the consciousness of the officiating, that with a world-class operator in the dugout, we were to be taken more seriously.

Anthony Hawkins
65 Posted 24/10/2023 at 12:54:59
Whilst it can be argued it was ball-to-hand as Keane's hand was already there, I'm pretty sure Keane pre-empted the cross which is why his hand was there in the first place. It was woeful and costly positioning.

There's also the argument whether 'pool would have won regardless. We'll never know as the opportunity was never afforded to us. Bias ref? 100%

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.

How to get rid of these ads and support TW

© ToffeeWeb