I'm sorry, Roberto, but this team IS under-achieving... massively

I cannot argue with any of that and as you know so many of us have been saying the same thing now for the past 18 months. It has taken you quite a while but it seems the penny has finally dropped.

From warning us not to send negative posts and sending some of us to the naughty chair, it seems you have now joined the great unwashed

Watch the exodus of our better players between May and August turn into a steady flow, they ain't mugs, and can spot a loser a mile off.

It's criminal that we have between 8-9 very very good players, but we will never see them mature in a blue shirt.

Hoping for a win today but also hope its a great day out for all the supporters of the home team. They have suffered over the past couple of months and their woes put our problems in perspective.

It's not going to do any good though, because no one at the club is listening; and even if they were, they're not going to change anything. Martinez believes that his "philosophy" is THE way. He either won't, or probably more accurately can't, alter the way he manages. Dead slow going forward and wide open at the back. Disastrous!!

As you've pointed out, we have some truly talented players, but were stretched extremely thinly at every position excepting midfield. We're spineless also. There are only two players who play with anything other than total respect for the opposition; Barry and Besic. Naismith would get in someone's face, but he's gone.

As has been pointed out endlessly, we're not balanced. It used be Baines and Pienaar up the right, exclusively. Now it's Deulofeu (when he's not pooped) and whoever happens to be fit, up the left. The goalkeeping situation is a farce.

Once again, well said, Lyndon. Hopefully the next manager will take heed, because I'm pretty sure this one won't.

Couldn't agree more.

All three of these managers play similar systems, playing tippy-tappy, playing sideways from the back, the centre halves splitting to the full back positions, a midfielder dropping into the gap, the full backs advancing to the halfway line, everyone out of their natural positions then the ball is lost and immediately the teams are under pressure.

This relentless belief in retaining the ball no matter how many passes go backwards or sideways bores us, it bores Man Utd, and it bored Liverpool. This system does not work and it turns supporters of whatever colour against the team. Liverpool have already addressed their problem; Man Utd will address theirs in the next few weeks; we need to address ours.

Martinez must go and allow another manager the remainder of the season to galvanise the current players, get them winning games, and then he might have a chance of convincing them to stay in the summer.

My take on the problem is a little different. I see a manager who has too much time for impact players. We have Mirallas, on his day a very good player; Deulofeu, the same: Kone, plays one in three; Barkley, great when it works but often it doesn't; Osman, way past his best, Oviedo, not fit when he plays and Pienaar (who I love) nowhere near ready.

All these we can use but not lots at the same time. We need Besic types that will give it all, all day long – not fly-by-night players who blast it over given a chance.

My only hope is that this another 1983-84 season and it will come good in the FA Cup.

Much better for him to be at a club that is 'happy' to allow him to dictate the style of play and 'teach' the fans and players how to play the game, irrespective of results.

Roberto's teams play like he speaks, eloquent but lacking in substance, flowery but without grit, easy on the ear and eyes, but out of synch with reality. In other words, it looks and sounds good, until you realise that most of it is impractical and unfathomable rather than plain, simple and understandable.

The manager is very unlikely to change, therefore we are better off changing the manager. Who replaces him is immaterial, because if Roberto Martinez's CV can get him the Goodison gig in the first place, then the list of possible replacements must run into the millions.

The fans are fed with Martinez and so are the press. Everyone is to blame but him. A new manager is required and quickly. The players have had three years of Roberto's methods! It will take a new manager three to six months to implement his style. We are in a mess! Martinez said Champions League for Everton got the champ right. He meant the Championship.

On a business level season ticket renewal forms will be with us soon! Take some magical advertising to sell that...

Great article, very reasoned and balanced. I dislike football supporters who call for a managers head a the hint of a few poor performances. But Martinez has tried my patience well beyond its limit; I have kept on hoping things will change but they won't.

Everton are such a soft touch at the moment. We will have to score at least 5 goals to win a game. It's time for a change in manager, the board should see that it is not going to work under Martinez, we as fans should DEMAND a change in manager.

Alternately, if we have this world class team, why don't we go shit or bust for a world class coach like Simeone, Bielsa or similar, and really see where we can go.

Excellent article, Lyndon.

RIP, Sir Terry. Enlivened many a Eurovision bore whilst pissed!

Of course we are under-achieving. This side should be challenging for a top 4 position. The glaringly obvious lack of defensive organisation is the reason.

My solution will not be popular with the majority.I would leave John Stones out of the starting 11. In today's age it is simple to look back on video at the goals we have conceded this season.In my opinion Stones is the problem. The lad may well develop into a top class centre half at the moment he is miles away from that.

I have said it for most of the season,his lack of awareness of space,players running off him and his inability to sense danger is obvious.

His undoubted ability and calmness on the ball is masking his defensive frailty for some.

Underachievement apart, the thing that makes my blood boil is the constant refusal to face reality, the incessant positivity where it's not justified, the constant bigging up of players, the failure to address issues (even acknowledge them!), the lack of organisation, the relentless drivel that he spouts. I'm afraid that he's been very much hoist by his own petard.

The sad aspect is that when he goes it will be the end of this team. But we'd be fools to reflect on the last two years and think that somehow it's going to change when the causes are unaltered.

The sad thing is these things are what the club should be pointing out to him.

Firstly, I don't agree with the assertion that he should have been given this season after his "wobble" second season. For me, I never wanted him, although once he was here I got behind him as the manager and I started to think I was wrong in the first season.

However, his second season syndrome did not start second season for me; it started around March of the first season when we got walloped by the RS. 4-0 and lucky to get away with that and mostly because he failed to either see or address simple issues that absolutely should have been addressed in game. The turning point for his dismissal for me was the 3-0 defeat by Swansea in the LC the following season when he was not at all bothered clearly. It has been obvious he is not the right manager long before this season started in my opinion.

Beyond that, I don't agree that "Get tight at the back" can ever work with him. Why? Well, in the 1980s, the 'Dark' Lord Alan Sugar realised that computers were put together from expensive individual parts so he hit on the great idea of building the electronics from a single component which drastically reduced costs and therefore price to the consumer, making himself a huge fortune (from knocking out 'tut' to use his own expression).

When his devices failed though, which was often, you couldn't replace it. You couldn't fix or upgrade it even if the cheapest component failed, it was all or nothing, and you had to get a brand new one. It's the same with RM's Amstrad football philosophy. You can't just tighten up at the back, it's all or nothing. A fullback can't be in two places at once and ours are usually around the opposition 18 yard line.

Tighter at the back in this philosophy means we don't attack the same way. We have no defensive cover for centre halves and no recognisable shape – the Martinez way cannot be tweaked. What he has done in the past at Wigan is play three centre halves and that's as far as he goes. It didn't work then either. Balance can't exist in his teams in my opinion.

Secondly, and as pointed out in the article, we do not test opposing keepers. I don't see the great attacking football that I am constantly being told we are playing. It's a myth. We scored at will against Villa and Sunderland and it seems to be built on that. We are ponderous and hesitant, and, in games when we are on top, don't convert enough. More than half of the goals we score are from Lukaku (the majority) and Barkley.

So when the inevitable form dip occurs (and I am convinced Lukaku is carrying an injury from the first leg of the SF), suddenly we are not scoring. Besides which, goals don't mean that much anymore because we always concede. We have, I think, probably the lowest points to goals ratio of any team in the top division. When the goals dry up we are in serious, serious trouble because we will always continue to let them in at the other end.

If there was one thing I would change which is simple it would be to tell Barkley to shoot on sight. The only thing is, people would get on the kid's back for missing but, as you state Lyndon, if you don't shoot you don't score. We only have one player who shoots on sight currently and that is Lukaku and he doesn't really get any stick for missing. That's because the law of averages means that a good proportion of those go in. Playing the ball out wide yet again and again just does not test opposing keepers.

Both are now pretty poor defensively on a regular basis and are inconsistent. As a unit we are shambolic.

Xmas last season put major doubts in my mind as it was the worst I'd seen since Walker. Nothing ive seen this season has eased my concerns.

He isn't, he isn't, he won't. He's just an underachieving football manager lucky to keep his job. And I didn't like the barrage of personal bile against his predecessor neither.

Sorry to be a pedant, but that game against the not so loveable neighbours came at the end of January 2014. Fair enough, it started a mini run of away defeats including to Spurs and Chelsea but the team did get back on track before it floundered once again in early April against Palace.

But the rest of your post is accurate and fair by the way.

"Director of Football" ... interesting, so long as it's not at Everton.

I'm interested to know who you'd hire as manager. I can't help but think Benitez would do a good job. Like's the area, generally does a good job wherever he goes and odd exception apart he's been quite thrifty in the transfer market.

I think they are hoping we stay clear of relegation and leave it to the new owners to decide the fate of RM. Failure to beat Newcastle on Wednesday could see us overtaken by Chelsea and WBA, and then slide down the league even further.

Unfortunately Martinez knows only one way. He showed it at Wigan and is now doing it again at Everton. I suggest that the players are not going to go against him as the will be dropped to the bench or worse not be part of the squad. Also if they did rebel against him then surely that would be time for the hierarchy to get rid of him.

It pisses me off when I hear him bigging up these players only to witness them failing again at the earliest opportunity.

No, no everything is fine, the players are world class, we are nearly there etc.

Roberto, we are neither blind nor stupid, mate!

Last season, I posted exact same as yourself that our downfall started with the 4-0 hammering from the RS. Brenda sussed Martinez's tactics by packing his defence and hitting us on the break. Other managers quickly picked up on that and Roberto was exposed with no Plan B.

He still finds it difficult to accept that the beautiful game cares not for joined-up stuff if that does not result in goals. He even complained that opponents had not tried to make a 'proper' game of it.

However, the article could (largely) have been written at any point in the past year with minor changes.

Combined with that, the current TW poll shows about 25% still want to retain RM for the time-being. 25%???

There is our problem as a football club.

It takes us too long to suss out when change needs to be made. We need higher standards from the board down and the fans up.

RM should not have started this season as our manager. It was patently obvious after LAST Christmas (2014-15) despite some on this very website even cheering/celebrating our concession of 6 goals at home to Chelsea because of the 'brand' of football apparently on display.

We still have 25%-ish who see last season and this as acceptable.

Are those 25% new fans with no skin in the game (cash-investing, time-served Evertonians) who drone on about 'the beautiful game' and ... (sorry I've just thrown up coming out with that term).

Are they new fans who have only seen a mid-table team and therefore this current situation isn't too bad?

Are they genuinely 'old school' who want to be decent about it and give RM time on the basis that he's apparently a nice bloke?

Surely they can't have gone the RM way and lost their marbles believing in this dross as well?

No other ambitious club in the modern era would stand for such a poor performance and such a waste of talent.

We need to learn to fail quicker as a club so that we can start again.

Currently this is a slow, painful death.

Yes you are correct, my post was from memory. January is even worse.

Dick 36 yes I recall. Martinez was rumbled then and has never really countered the big picture in my opinion.

Obviously this was just smoke & mirrors on his behalf to deflect criticism from his & the squad's performances, but we should be used to him spouting a load of bolloocks by now. That will never change.

How times have changed. The people who couldn't wait to elevate him to such an exulted status, now seem to be more anxious to get rid of him than those they had labled "haters" for not subscribing to their beliefs... Poor old Roberto appears friendless.

Everton's results will improve and because they have been so bad recently, the margin for improvement is greater. I believe they will improve dramatically... but I have never subscribed to Lyndon's belief that you can "make your own luck". Sure, you can influence the shape of games, but luck/fate/fortune is out of the hands of us mere mortals, if we could make our own luck, you lot would be in the bookies instead of reading this shit. Our luck will turn.

I do agree that we offer a very easy option to referees, unseemly as it is, we have got to make them feel as much heat as the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool.

The question is; Have things gone too far for Roberto to regain the faith of his supporters? ... I don't think so. Some people are just to desperate to believe in him – I blame Moyes for that.

Senior players have been increasingly vocal of late. They are embarrassed, their pride is hurting. They will do everything they can to salvage it... Then I fully expect the people who have turned on Martinez and are calling for his head, to turn right back again and give all the credit.

I continue to back him.

I agree with Lyndon about making your own luck. If a team is set up correctly and giving 100%, then I believe things even out. Defending as we do invites bad luck.

Also, I will give Martinez absolutely no credit for turning round a situation created entirely by his ineptitude. It would take an unprecedented run of victories and a jaw-dropping change in his approach for me to change my view that he should be sacked.

Paul Tran, I do not think it is personal bile to voice the concern that Martinez will relegate us. I think he is a probably a lovely man and would never criticise him personally. However, professionally he is paid a fortune and I believe him to be a fraud and a charlatan. He, in my view, arrogantly adheres to a dead philosophy of football that has us underachieving.. I have no respect for him as football manager and maybe that is too negative to you, but it is never personal.

Excellent riposte to the claims that we are not underachieving although it will fall on deaf ears because the man doesn't listen and, even if he did, I believe confidence in him by most supporters – and I would think quite a few of the players – has been shot beyond redemption.

We need a new man asap to rekindle enthusiasm and expectation.

We don't need to get lucky, we only need to stop being so depressingly unlucky.

1. Who is there, available, who is better?

2. Would that person come?

If they do this would surely be another another blow to his ability to bring in quality players, unless he goes then we will start again with more new players who will need to bed in then we will be phenomenal.

Still unfortunately believe if he is here next year then the championship becons, hope I am wrong but have no confidence in the result v Newcastle.

I think Martinez sees himself as a part of the school of coaches that places huge importance in entertainment. The school includes Keegan, Santana, Bielsa, purists who saw attack as the best form of defence.

110 goals in 61 games suggests that Martinez will need to swallow hard, accept his philosophy needs to be modified and start working on the basics you outline. Relying on sheer luck to propel us from this dire defensive rut is a gamble I would not be willing to take.

However, despite that, it doesn't change the fact our league position is bad, and will eventually not meet their expectations barring a turnaround in our defensive record.

That is what I don't believe RM will change. He has voiced rigidness many times on how he doesn't care about conceding goals, as if he doesn't care about the score and league position. We may have a lot of deflections and calls against us, but its our horrible defensive shape that is causing our players to make last-ditch tackles leading to the deflections. With RM still here, I see no chance in us improving defensively barring a defensive coach hire which, given his abstinence of defensive work, will not happen.

As much as I agree fully with Lyndon on his article, it will be another piece that falls to the deaf ears of our Everton regime.

I refer you to The King is Dead post.

There are thousands of good managers a number of whom I am sure could be attracted to Everton.

Regrettably Roberto has shown no inclination to change his approach and appears totally resistant to change. Some of us, albeit a rapidly dwindling number of us, would like to see him succeed but increasingly his 'my way or no way' methods look doomed to put us into a downward spiral.

His apparent indulgence of the flaws evident in the performances of the young players has done them no favours. The club and the players in his charge need more pragmatism and less hyperbole in his management of all football related matters.

It wasn't on the Main Forum that the term 'Haters' was espoused – it was on the Offside Forum where it was first coined by somebody other than me, by the way.

I've changed my mind about Roberto because I have witnessed the way we have played for nearly 18 months and I don't hear or see anything from him that will change our results dramatically. I have also done a great deal of reading and research of the man and his tactics whilst he was at Wigan.

The season prior to relegation they were in the mire, and he switched to three at the back which garnered a winning streak and enough points to ensure safety, the following season he reverted to type and they paid the price. Roberto has got much better players at his disposal but the systems in place are essentially the same; however, the competition has gone up a notch in the top-flight in the last couple of years and for me he'll never finish higher than mid-way, no matter how many goals Everton score in a season.

He has talked his way through a number of seasons of being in charge of Premier League teams which, generally, have performed badly. At Wigan, he got away with it for some time, then presided over their relegation. Now, he is overseeing the decline of Everton. He must not be allowed to do so.

I might sound crazy but I would let Martinez go and let Unsworth take it home. Give him a few months to see what he is made of.

Excellent opinion and based on reason and fact.

Martinez will NOT get sacked unless we're relegation threatened. Get used to him. :-(

Fact is, until the horrible defensive problems are sorted out, and Stones is taught how to freaking play center back, the farce that is the defense will continue. If it was all mostly down to Howard, then why didn't Robles keep clean sheets versus Man City (actual EPL competition) in either game? Sure he got one versus a league 2 team halfway out of that league and into the ranks of semi-professional football, but is that the level we use as a benchmark? Alarming that we only scored three isn't it when Chelsea scored 5 versus MK Dons?

Oh well, keep the blinders on and blame the keeper, but don't be surprised when, with a new manager and defensive organization, the numbers of goals against decreases back to acceptable levels no matter who the keeper is since that was never the real major problem to begin with.

"Assumptions, errors, Guesses" ? ... what?

The world does not revolve around Tim Howard you know.

Lyndon has put together a well researched, comprehensive article which echoes the views of Evertonians everywhere. Sure, a lot of it is opinion, that's kinda the point... but he has backed up his opinion with evidence and facts.

It's okay to disagree with some of the points, but in this superb article, Lyndon articulates the pain and frustration he is feeling; it will resonate and be discussed by Evertonians everywhere.

On the subject of the majority, I still see over 27% (I think it was TW poll) don't think Bob should be sacked! Jesus, how bad has it got to get?

I've wanted him gone for a long time but, after blaming the fans for the team's performances and "we're not underachieving" nonsense, I thought more would be swayed (or just damn-right outraged) at the charlatan.

Basing purely on his interviews I would give him a bash to end of season... Would love to see what he would do.