Late goal defeats a determined a Everton display

Burnley went ahead off a soft goal after it looked like Everton were taking control of the game. Bolasie stole the ball off Lukaku to equalize with a great shot but the visitors could not get the second, yet Burnley did in the final minute.

Michael Kenrick 22/10/2016 314comments  |  Jump to last
Burnley 2 - 1 Everton

Burnley went ahead off a soft goal after it looked like Everton were taking control of the game. Bolasie stole the ball off Lukaku to equalize with a great shot but the visitors could not get the second, yet Burnley did in the final minute.

Kevin Mirallas and Ross Barkley returned to the starting XI as Ronald Koeman rung a couple of changes, with Lennon, Cleverley, Deulofeu, and Funes Mori on the bench. Leighton Baines is out injured.

Neither side looked in control from the off as possession was squandered freely, leading to Bolasie making a run and stumbling over the ball that ran free and Mirallas nipped in, turning brightly to fire but straight at Heaton. Nothing came from Barry's short corner.

The visitors got forward and won another corner that was delivered poorly by Mirallas. Bolasie tried an overhead kick from the edge of the area that flew wide. Ward came in too strongly on Williams and hurt himself, somehow winning a free kick that Everton had to defend.

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Barkley tried to get the attack going with a couple of crosses from the left but nothing came of them. Coleman and then Gueye tried from the other side but Burnley were marking tightly and shutting down the spaces. Some incredibly scrappy play finally saw the ball drop for Lukaku who fired hard to Heaton's left but the keeper parried it and Mirallas could not get to the rebound.

Barkley then made great space and fired but again it was within reach of Heaton's punch. Everton were doing much better, though, stringing together passes and running with purpose at the home side. But a poor Barry giveaway put them under immediate pressure. Stekelenburg had to be alert to punch away a cross off Vokes's head. Arfield was in cynically to stop Coleman.

In attack, Coleman, Bolasie and Gueye contrived to play silly triangles while Lukaku stood and waited for the cross that never came. Lukaku then seemed to get a glimpse but was immediately closed down. At the other end, Vokes did well to turn and shoot under pressure from a group of yellow shirts, and Everton reverted again to slow build-up passing, Bolasie winning another corner that Mirallas put into the mixer.

Gueye got carded for absolutely nothing as Arfield lost his balance and crumbled in front of him. Barkley then ran into Kightly and got a free kick that was swung deep to the back post where Williams was penalized for climbing all over the defender.

A dreadful free-kick taken by Jagielka led to a foul and free-kick to Burnley and unwanted pressure that Stekelenburg thankfully stopped. At the other end, Mee somehow prevented Lukaku from getting a shot in. Gueye's dreadful forward ball, wildly overhit as Hendrick came in, saw another ridiculous card shown to the Burnley player this time.

Arfield, already on a yellow, kicks Barry as he passes back, a clear yellow card that the ref bottled. Burnley attacked and got in a decent cross that Williams was able to defend but the break stopped at Lukaku's clumsy hold-up play that lost the ball.

Burnley drove through after a fine touch from Gudmundsson and Stekelenburg looked to have saved a soft shot by Arfield but his weak parry just set up an easy tap-in for Vokes. Shocking goal to give away.

It was painfully frustrating stuff at times, Coleman getting a card for holding back Arfield. Gueye had a chance to cross in but put it sloppily behind as the half ended poorly for the visitors.

Better play from the restart saw Bolasie cross but it was too high for Lukaku. A shot from Barkley followed Mirallas's corner, saved easily enough by Heaton. They looked to work the ball around the Burnley area, but Oviedo's touch for Barry was wasteful.

Lukaku did well in the hold-up role and Barkley stutter-stepped across the area, finally getting sandwiched flinging himself down. No chance of a spot-kick, said Mike Jones, but he was keener to give Coleman a final dressing down as the Everton mand could not get out of Arfield's way. That free-kick led to a corner that was defended away and led to something of a counter-attack that was just not fast enough, allowing the impenetrable Burnley defence to reform for the throw-in.

Everton looked to construct more incisive passing moves but they were having a tough time of it chiselling anything out until Gueye played a great first-time ball to release Mirallas whose cross really should have been meat and potatoes for Lukaku but was 2 feet in front of him and went harmlessly through for a goal kick.

More Everton pressure won a corner but Williams was called for his role in the far-post mêlée. But the ball did break thanks to a fantastic forward ball that Lukakau picked up and strode forward with but Yannick Bolasie literally stole the ball off his toes and lashed in a fearsome shot that beat Heaton all hands down, a tremendous goal that Lukaku will feel was his all along! Very strange!!

That goal turned the game, and raised the tempo all around. Arfield clashed with Barry as he seemed to be looking for a second yellow. Everton pressure built relentlessly, a great touch from Bolasie giving Coleman rare access down the channel and a lovely cross to Lukaku's feet was just nicked away by Keane to deny the Big Man a simple tap-in.

Lots of Everton pressure as the visitors went for the winner with some decent attempts to vary the play and the point of attack but the finesse and close control needed to beat a resolute Burnley defence seemed lacking at times. Another fantastic inviting cross, this time from the left, got a vital touch from Heaton to deny Lukaku at the far post. Deulofeu replaced Mirallas who had done little to impress.

Deulofeu won a corner but no-one had held back for the second ball. Gueye fired in a low shot straight at Heaton. The yellow shirts swarmed into the Burnley area, with Jagielka joining the attack, but the ball just would not fall for them, Bolasie firing in a great effort in a surprise attempt that forced a good fingertip save from Heaton.

Deulofeu played in a corner after a long break for treatment to Ward, followed by subs that included Cleverley on for Gueye as the minutes ticked away, Burnley's rearguard determined to resist all challenges. Burnley saw a little more of the ball, Everton unable to string together the passing accuracy needed to break into the spaces created. But Barkley then Lukaku could not make meaningful shots when in good advanced positions.

A free-kick for Burnley, Everton couldn't clear... a shot from nothing, lashed against the bar by Gudmunsson bounced off the bar and sat nicely for Arfield who powered it first time into the ground, bouncing over Stekelenburg and into the Everton net to stun Koeman and the travelling Blues. Valencia on for Jagielka with 2 mins of added time remaining but the game was lost in the final minute.

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Reader Comments (314)

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Christy Ring
1 Posted 22/10/2016 at 15:10:49
Surprised McCarthy is not on the bench, after his performance last week.
Colin Hughes
2 Posted 22/10/2016 at 15:33:51
This is pretty mundane stuff with no urgency from us. Need to show them less respect and just commit men into the box to get ahead then they will have to come out, leaving us to bring on Deulofeou to run in behind them on the counter-attack. Too many stoppers on the pitch just now.
Ciarán McGlone
3 Posted 22/10/2016 at 15:38:01
Thoroughly unimpressive.
Colin Hughes
4 Posted 22/10/2016 at 15:41:38
Another Bournemouth/Norwich result coming up here by the looks of it. Let's face it – we are still utter shite.
Mark Rimmer
5 Posted 22/10/2016 at 15:45:53
Started off well, but starting to look a bit clueless, these are going to be even harder to break down now they have the lead, frustration will set in and lead to a Burnley second. 2 - 0 I think.
Tom Roberts
6 Posted 22/10/2016 at 15:46:59
I'm sorry but Burnley are THE WORST team I've ever seen in the Premier League.

Jagielka has taken 3 free kicks and given them straight to Burnley players. After his double penalty whammy last week, I'm not sure why he's even in the team, never mind the captain.

Ronald Koeman has a lot of work to do to right this ship. We truly are very very poor from 1 to 11.

Phil Jeffries
7 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:01:37
Martinez type crap still being served up by Jagielka. Free kick at the back... pass it to a marked midfielder! GET IT UP THE PITCH!!!! After the 2 mistakes last week, it's almost hypocrisy not to play Funes Mori after the example made of Barkley.

COYB... Second half comeback... Jags to net the winner! haha!!

Peter Hadwin
8 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:08:57
Surprised nobody mentioned how shite Lukaku has been. Lazy in and out of possession. His lay offs are terrible and his movement in the box utterly terrible.
Peter Cummings
9 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:08:59
I can see a red card and or a penalty coming up in this one. We dominate possession and hand them a potential winner, literally.

The Clarets beat the other crowd across the park with the same tactics, changes needed, asap.

Ciarán McGlone
10 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:11:21
Bollasie is a tube.
Ciarán McGlone
11 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:17:45
I'll get my coat.
Ralph Basnett
12 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:51:44
Bubble has definitely burst, more clueless shoite!!!!!

Billionaire owner – bollocks!!!!!

£100 mill war-chest bollocks!!!!!

Back to normal for Everton!!!!!

Peter Jansson
13 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:52:57
This is just fucking useless.
Colin Hughes
14 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:53:02
Boooooooo, come back Roberto all is forgiven!

No points at Bournemouth or Burnley... Martinez would have got destroyed for that.

Next away is Chelsea so another defeat there. Koeman and Moshiri out.

Steve Hartwell
15 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:53:21
Winston Williamson
16 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:53:58
This is last ever post and thought concerning Everton and football...

I'm currently leaving Turf Moor and have decided to return my season ticket to Everton, addressed to the overpaid, pansies currently wearing a shirt steeped in history.

I'm done. Football was once a man's game! A game for working men and women to enjoy. As I look around the ground, all I see is a bunch of players so far detached from the supporters it's indescribable.

This Everton team (including the board and management) just don't get it – they don't understand and the way the game is going, they never will...


Brian Williams
17 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:53:58
That was absolutely disgusting. People get stick on here for having a go at Lukaku but today he looked uninterested, lazy, and fucking shocking. There was one attack where we went close and then it broke to Deulofeu on the wing and the big lazy twat couldn't even bother to get back onside.

He wasn't the only one who was poor, but, when you have his undoubted talent and can't be arsed to use it, he wants fucking! Some of them need to take a long hard look at themselves tonight, Lukaku especially!

Patrick Murphy
18 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:54:00
Ralph (#12), what more could the players have done second-half, apart from score more goals obviously? That was a robbery and anyone even bitter and twisted blues must see that.
Alan McGuffog
19 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:54:47
Truly a side that will grace the Kenwright Stadium in Gillmoss. Onwards let the mediocrity continue!
Mark Rimmer
20 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:55:16
Has Moyes found employment yet?
Brian Williams
21 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:56:34
Patrick are you for real, a robbery? For fuck's sake, man, we got what we deserved for not having the nous or gumption to put the ball in the net. It wasn't robbery it was lack of guile, lack of intensity, and in Lukaku's case lack of fucking interest.
Paul Conway
22 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:56:53
Is it me or, does anyone else think that Barkley, Mirallas and Dulofeu are prolific shite?
Patrick Murphy
23 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:58:01
OK then I must be on my own in my view, but it was nothing like the Bournemouth debacle, where the team truly stunk the place out.
Ralph Basnett
24 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:58:58
Patrick (18), that's the whole point!

Tried in the first half!!

Give the manager the war chest,if it was ever their!!!!!!

Score more than a shoite team and win the game (no wins in last 5)!!!

I have said time and time again Koeman is not the man for us, he is defensive minded and we can't defend, he knew we needed another forward and failed to get us one, he used youth in other teams but won't give ours a try...

Peter Jansson
25 Posted 22/10/2016 at 16:59:32
I think Coleman is a shadow of himself... I would give Holgate the chance instead. Mirallas has also gone down. Barkley still inefficient. Lukaku won a lot of balls in offensive midfield, he was not the worst player today. But how come we never win any headers in the air in the opponent's penalty box?
Michael Kenrick
26 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:00:26
Oh how we laughed when Liverpool came unstuck against this rum lot after dominating play...

Barkley painfully slow and always needing that second touch... just maddening to watch.

The tempo of play rarely reached anything like what is required to beat sides like this. The intensity, desire... it's just not there.

Andy Walker
27 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:00:51
I agree with you, Patrick, just one of those days, it happens. We battered them for 70 minutes of the game. I think that will be obvious to most.
Ralph Basnett
28 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:00:56
Forgot to say, cheers Everton for fuckin my weekend up yet again!!!!
Chris Williams
31 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:03:46
Doom and gloom. Time to open a vein. Pack it all in and retire to a convent.

A poor result for sure. Beaten by a worse team. Absolutely.

I'm afraid there will be more of these days until Koeman get his players in and we improve in all areas, but I've decided the only way I can maintain sanity is to exercise patience and perspective.

Serenity now!

John Graham
32 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:03:54
It's a game we need to be winning. Especially if we are going to park the bus against the big teams. It's not about having more of the play – it's about creating chances and getting the ball in the net. At the moment, we just aren't up to it.

I think the team looks a bit disjointed. Midfield just doesn't seem to flow. Barry is solid and Gueye seems a very good signing but, after that, there is no-one taking the game by the scruff of the neck.

Might be a difficult time to bring the kids in but I would like to see one or two given a chance and then we should go out and buy a couple of game changers in January.

It's going to be a long hard season by the look of it...

Peter Jansson
33 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:04:01
Just face the facts. We need to buy 4-6 new players to be good enough for European football.
Craig Fletcher
34 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:04:08
Burnley must have an angel on their shoulder. Outplayed by both us and the reds at home, yet somehow they come away with six points.
Paul Kossoff
35 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:04:15
I am not past caring, but I feel that way. Poor transfer window not rectified our lack of a goalscorer, eg Austin, to put pressure on Lukaku who thinks he's better than he is; no central attacking midfielder; average players in the squad.

I hope Koeman gets the funds to buy in January and then has a clear out in the Summer... we will have to wait and see.

Dave Ganley
36 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:04:45
Oh dear. Just not good enough. Panic at the back at times, no composure in the final third, not enough desire to win 50/50 balls, to be honest it's only what we already know and have known for a while, most aren't good enough.

Gana and Barry provide a good axis in midfield but sadly there's just not enough top quality around them. Sadly Jags is starting to make plenty of mistakes, maybe it's time to give Funes Mori a go instead. Unfortunately we have little options for the final third but Del Boy pissing around in the final minute Instead of getting the cross in just sums up the fannying around the front 4 do.

We all knew how big the job Koeman had when he came in. Having a few good results early doors fooled a few people, this is just a reality check to emphasise what a job he has. Vast majority aren't good enough and are showing Koeman exactly how poor they are. Important transfer windows in January and summer.

Tony Hill
37 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:05:38
The enduring problem is that we have no ruthlessness and no winning mentality. Indeed, we have no winners in the team. It's been our disease for years and years, no reason why it should change now I suppose. Good old Everton, chugging along and polishing our memories, threatening nobody.

Andy Walker
38 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:06:29
I just wish this site had the function of being able to click on a posters name and see all their past posts. Reckon we'd see a marked reduction of the "I've been saying for ages" hindsight posts.
George Cumiskey
39 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:06:48
Another really poor performance from the team and the manager. How Barkley stayed on for 90 minutes is unbelievable – he was woeful, and bringing on Cleverley when you are trying to win a game is mind boggling. And Jagielka couldn't pass wind!!!
Ian Riley
40 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:07:07
Think of the positives. Another 25 points and we are safe!!
Colin Malone
41 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:09:40
Can Stekelenburg dive to his left?
Peter Jansson
42 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:10:39
The problems are too many.

Barkley is just not good enough and will never be. Sorry but true. He just can not keep the pace up. Caught in his hold on and dribble.

Mirallas is going down. He was good for 2-3 seasons ago... now, I don't know whats wrong with him.

Coleman – not good enough.

Cleverley – not good enough.

Lukaku – he needs competition.

We need two offensive midfielders and a striker. I don't think the defense is the biggest problem. If we scored more goals, we would not be in this kind of trouble we are.

Richard Dodd
43 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:10:55
Another season over by October. Very average players bossed by a jobsworth manager. Team selection and substitutions baffling.
John Graham
45 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:11:42
Players not up to it... Oviedo, Cleverley, McCarthy, Barkley, Mirallas, Deulofeu, Lennon, Robles, Valencia... must be one or two of the kids who could be given a try instead of these.
Andy Walker
46 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:11:58
We just needed a break today but didn't get one. If we'd had that bit of luck the whole narrative would have been different. Some perspective called for I think.
James Watts
47 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:11:59
Another shocking result following Bournemouth a few weeks back. However, look at this way. We were extremely lucky last week and gained a point, we were extremely unlucky this week and lost a point. Certainly evened out in my eyes.

As for the performance, I thought we did ok. Yannick generally impressed me but Lukaku is such a lazy twat. Ross, really don't know what to say anymore but right now shouldn't be anywhere near the first XI.

Big Ron's performance??! No idea why he took Gana off when Barkley should have been off for Valencia to push forward to give that lazy twat up front some support when we were well on top for the last 30. I'm 50/50 on him right now. Not been too impressed if I'm honest the last few weeks, especially with some very strange subs at times.

Still the most worrying thing for me is the amount of non-movement off the ball. Hasn't improved at all under Ron.

*Sigh* ... another weekend ruined. FFS, Everton. When will you give us something to cheer about?!?

John Graham
48 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:14:30
Didn't want to put Jags in but maybe his performances are not what we are used to from him.
Andy Walker
49 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:15:34
Second half today we played some really good stuff but they put 11 behind the ball, rode their luck and then got a break at the end to steal the points. We've all seen it before and it will happen again, but it doesn't lead me to form a long term opinion of our team and manager.
Joseph Mullarkey
51 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:16:57
Build up play is too slow with too many touches, opposing teams have plenty of time to organise and swamp us.

Having one recognised striker to aim at makes the task even harder especially when he can't be arsed to run half the time or even get back onside for the second ball.

I dream of the old link up play that we used to see when Baines and Pienaar used to fly down the left to unlock defences, Do we have no-one capable of this style of play?

Bolasie is the only one with any flare.

Lee Whitehead
52 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:17:23
Andy (#46)

Fukin Perspective!!!


Tony Twist
53 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:18:48
Embarrassing, unprofessional and second rate. Koeman needs to get his finger out, I don't think we have improved that much from the Martinez era, on the pitch. Koeman needs to prove his quality rather than trying to preserve his reputation as a straight talker. It's all talk from him at the moment.
Jimmy Hogg
54 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:21:28
I agree, we need 4 or 5 new players, but where do you get them from? £30 mill buys you Bolasie, how much will old players cost?

Today's players just don't have passion. To see them leave the pitch smiling and joking knocks me sick. Pity games aren't "no win, no fee".

John Daley
55 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:21:45
Ralph @24,

That entire post is just gibberish and no amount of superfluous exclamation marks are going to help it make any sense.

"Scored more than a shoite team..."

Who did? Burnley?

"I have said time and time again Koeman is not the man for us, he is defensive minded and we can't defend."

So, you're actually arguing he is the man for us then? Seen as though you say we can't defend and his strong suit is getting the defensive sorted?

"He used youth in other teams but won't give ours a try."

When has Koeman been lauded for loading his teams with youth prospects? Certainly not at Southampton. It was one of the very few gripes their fans had about his time in charge.

Tony Hill
57 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:23:57
I think we'll finish around 9th or 10th this season which is about right for the players we have and the form they're in. The glaring absence of a second striker is catching up with us, as it was always going to do.

I agree with those who say that we have to accept that we are an average team at the moment and let's hope that money can make some difference, if indeed we have it and are prepared to spend it.

I understand Winston Williamson's feelings (16) absolutely, but don't do it, Winston, it won't work. They're in your blood my friend and always will be. Plus, you're a good contributor.

Andy Walker
58 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:24:51
Can you believe some are saying based on today that Moshiri should leave? Can you believe how some people form opinions and make judgements? This was clearly an undeserved result.
Colin Hughes
59 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:25:19
Anybody who thought it was a good decision resting half of the first team in the League Cup against Norwich last month to prioritise the league may be eating humble pie now – we haven't won a game since.
John Daley
60 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:26:47
"..Another season over by October. Very average players bossed by a jobsworth manager. Team selection and substitutions baffling."

The season is never over in October and the "jobsworth" pop is embarrassing seing as though you spent over a decade dangling out the arse of the Scottish Smithers.

Eugene Ruane
61 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:27:56
My thoughts are exactly the same as they were after the Palace game - just more dumb.

And until we get some brains in there (one would be great) I see no real change on the horizon.

If there's a 'pattern', it's basically 'huff-puff-huff-puff-huff-puff-HUFF-PUFF-HUFF-PUFF...concede possession, nothing.

That or..

'Pressure pressure pressure PRESSURE PRESSURE...concede possession, then concede stupid goal.

I understand smart players aren't easy to find (and usually cost) but imo we desperately need a couple who are smart/canny/cute*.

We have players (and are a team) who, for the most part, work hard and can do a few fiddly bits and pieces, but to be consistent at this level, that simply isn't enough**

Gana reads the play well but is just one man.

Williams efforts over the last couple of games deserve better.

* the Irish cute (as in 'hoo-er') rather than the American one

**enough to achieve anything worth talking about.

John McGimpsey
62 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:30:40
I knew the 'blame Ross' brigade would be out. And those sucking the balls off Bolasie.

Today, Ross had a good game and that goal papered over the cracks of a greedy, standing on the ball useless gobshite who was also to blame for the second goal... but keep it up over Barkley and he'll be the money for January transfers and we will be conned again.

George Cumiskey
63 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:31:27
Is Andy Walker an alias for Bill Kenwright?

Tony @53 – spot on; if Koeman thinks Cleverly is an important part of the squad, we are in trouble!

Charles Brewer
64 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:31:57
Has anyone got the slightest idea why Cleverley was sent on? Everton were dominant in possession, but weak in attacking midfield and up front.

If Gana had to come off (and that may be the reason we lost), surely someone with an attacking frame of mind (Deulofeu, Valencia...) was the obvious choice.

Ian McDowell
65 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:32:31
Same as last season. Still conceding soft goals, don't have enough players with a goal threat.

We have played Norwich, Bournemouth, Palace, City and Burnley in the last 5 and scored 3 goals.

Peter Jansson
66 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:34:52
Idrissa Gana Gueye was maybe the best player on the field today. Why bring him out and send in Cleverley? Totally meaningless.
John Wilson
67 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:35:31
That summer transfer window just gone was just a joke – where Everton are, in form and in the crap place in the league, is testament to that.

Jobs for the boys: Koeman made even richer by signing for a very average Everton club. Koeman putting Enner Valencia on in the last dying minutes really does scream desperation. I half expected poor Niasse to be dragged on in extra time, or Koeman donning shorts himself!

The millionaires' club is what we should call the transfer window as that's exactly what it is. It's like the elephant in the room now, just a past headline, pick up another ridiculous high wage packet, pay Martinez off with silly money. Everton should have overpaid for talent in the last window transfer to at least gain their interest.

This board needs to be replaced by the Polish migrants – I bet they'd do a better job for a fraction of what these over-paid corporate staff get.

Everton just do not have the momentum, the motivation to win. How many times do we lose to a very poor first half then a change in the second half improves to Everton scoring then the opponent scoring within nano-seconds later?

Peter Barry
68 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:35:40
Why was our World Class Striker strolling around like a clown and why did he constantly give the ball away? We will never be a good team until we can get someone who can hold up the ball up front and a midfielder who can pass forwards not just sideways and back.

Oh, and Ross Barkley is not the answer to any question.

Mark Morrissey
69 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:36:34
Not the end of the world. We ought to have won. It's still early. We will improve under Koeman. We didn't look like losing it. The team is simply not gelling yet. Ross looks bereft of ideas and sluggish. I think he is under immense pressure and needs an arm around him.

A lot of disappointed Evertonians but it's not as bad as many are suggesting. I'm gutted because we should have won the game but let's not get too upset.

I think we are still short of players and January can't come soon enough but I think we are going to be okay. The team are simply not gelling but it will come. We are missing a foil for Lukaku who was lazy once again but he needs a foil.

Paul Tran
70 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:37:10
Plenty of near-misses in the second half. Mirallas's shovel-footed cross to Lukaku was a shocker. Bolasie had a pinpoint cross that Heaton just pushed away from Lukaku. He then hit that dipping shot that was going in till Heaton tipped it over Then there was that great move when their defender just nicked it away from Lukaku.

So we created enough opportunities. We got the breaks against Stoke; the breaks went against us today. It happens.

Of more concern to me is the non-performance in the first half and the baffling substitution of Gana for Cleverley. I'm waiting to hear he got a knock; otherwise, that's my first head-scratching moment under Koeman.

Anyone doubting the signing of Bolasie needs to look at what he did today and compare it with Barkley's, Mirallas's and Deufelou's efforts.

He's got to carry on polishing turds until he buys better players.

Disappointing all round.

Steve Brown
71 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:37:17
The players who have generally impressed me this season have been Gana, Williams and Bolasie. Of the 'Martinez squad' who has genuinely stood out? Barry is about all.

The rest are simply representative of what they were last season, inconsistent, arrogant, low work rate and lacking hunger. This WHOLE squad needs overhauling so it will take at least two more transfer windows to sort this out.

Jay Woods
72 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:37:50
There's a big, soft, flabby, jelly-like rotten core in this team that means it will never win anything, no matter who the manager is.

John Daley
73 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:37:53
Sorry, but if today was the final straw and a result that leaves you with no choice but to throw the towel in on the whole affair, then you never had your head screwed on right in the first place.

When the new manager took over, did you really think every problem this current Everton squad suffers from would be sorted out and corrected before feral kids starting banging on your door snarling 'Trick or Treat?'

It was obviously going to take a lot longer than a couple of months to drag us out of the swamp of turgid shite we've been neck deep and wading through for the past two seasons.

It was always going to take time and patience and playing the Puss King or throwing your toys out the pram every time we encounter problems along the way is just outright pathetic.

Steve Brown
75 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:41:19
We are simply not sharp enough in the attacking third. 66% possession, 8 corners, 8 shots on goals but no subtlety and wit around the box to open teams up. Go and get a clever CAM and stop playing Barkley there for god's sake.
Terry Jacobsen
76 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:42:20
Yet again, three points lost. Teams who can't win a game must rub their hands when they see us on the fixture list, lots of points dropped already against teams we should be beating. Don't want to hear the excuse "that's football" Not good enough.
Ralph Basnett
77 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:43:20

Read the post properly, if you can manage to work out I meant score not scored, by stating he is defensive minded and we can't defend means obviously he is not doing his job properly!!!!

Average age of his Southampton team was 24/25 to our 27, this after Southampton had sold what was then a relatively youthful LLana etc, etc.

I am not asking him to load the team with youth, just maybe ONE on the bench, might just send a message to the rest of the youth setup that opportunities are there!!

Trevor Powell
78 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:45:28
Yet another false dawwn!!!
John Daley
79 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:46:09
Read the post properly? I did. That was the entire point. Why not write it properly in the first place?
Steve Brown
80 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:46:55
We are in the bottom 5 for work rate in this league. That is something that should be fixable quickly at least.
Andrew Presly
81 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:47:11
I'm happy to give Koeman and maybe more importantly Walsh 3 years minimum to sort the Martinez mess out.

I just hope in the meantime we develop a spirit and togetherness than means results like today's actually hurt. Not sure how many of this lot really care deep down?

As a professional aiming for the heights you should be ashamed with yourself and with your teammates for losing to this Burnley side, especially with teams around us dropping points.

Bill Rodgers
83 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:49:10
That was inexplicable. We arsed around with corners for the first 80 minutes, our free kicks are generally clueless and every throw-in takes 30 seconds.

Barkley has had more wake-up calls than Rip Van Winkel – he looks thick, he plays thick, so maybe he is thick. As a direct result we have no link between Barry/Gueye and the forwards.

Koeman is making up his mind and now is the time to try the youngsters until January – he cannot continue with the overrated second-raters who allow this to happen.

As for those calling for Koeman's head – it almost makes me wish for a return of Moyes so that he can spend another decade lowering expectations and that we can all be grateful when we scrape survival. Looks like he'll be available soon.

Colin Malone
84 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:49:12
I'll will repeat. Can our goalkeeper dive to his left?
John Daley
85 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:50:05
" stating he is defensive minded and we can't defend means obviously he is not doing his job properly!!!!"

So, he hasn't improved our defence one iota in the short time he's been here? You think it should simply have been a swift five-minute fix from sieve-like porous proclivity to tighter than Tinkerbell's pussy?

Jack Convery
87 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:54:56
The effort was there today as it was last week. The difference is it's easier to close a team down, than it is to open a team up. We need a key player – pun intended. There is no-one in this squad who can do this job for us.

We need to get ahead in games like today, so the opposition come out and we have space in the final third. Walsh must have been told that his priority is a central midfielder who can gel the attack together. Koeman has a squad best designed to play on the break for now.

Next summer, we must get in players to give us an all round better team/squad to give us more options of how we set up. We were unlucky today, we deserved at least a point but the EFC I want to see gets 3 points from games / opponents like today – not a hard luck story.

John Daley
89 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:57:01
"I am not asking him to load the team with youth, just maybe ONE on the bench"

Holgate, there's your one. Does he not count as 'youth' for some reason?

Ah, wait. Maybe it didn't register, seen as though it was missing a million exclamation marks at the end of his name. Holgate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (That any better?)

Ciarán McGlone
90 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:57:09
I'm struggling for a upside to that.

Koeman's substitutions were baffling... both in terms of timing and personnel.

What transpired on the pitch was the usual middle-of-the-road, plodding, pedestrian performance that we have seen all season (with the exclusion of the first half against Spurs).

Two of the most frustrating players (Lukaku and Bolasie) make watching Everton at the moment a particularly unpleasant experience.

Oviedo acquitted himself well today. That's about all I have.

Daniel A Johnson
91 Posted 22/10/2016 at 17:58:25
Look at Spurs struggling at Bournemouth and Arsenal failing to beat Boro at home.

No easy matches in this league. Wins are not guaranteed they are earned and we didn't do enough today.

Peter Laing
92 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:00:16
Koeman has a massive rebuilding job on his hands and the fine margins that where seemingly going our way prior to the Norwich game are now going the other way.

I agree that the three new signings have been our best players this season – no surprise given that they are Koeman players.

Jagielka, Mirallas, Barkley, Deulofeu, Cleverley, Gibson and quite a few others need to start looking for new employment. Hopefully Moshiri has the stomach and cheque book needed for the job ahead.

Frank Crewe
94 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:02:47
Oh for one decent attacking midfielder. See what Coutinho just did there?

@Mark69. What Barkley needs is dropping for a month. Not on the bench either. Put him with the U23s until he gets his act together. Show him he's going backwards. Maybe Unsworth can liven him up. Or give him the push in January and bring in some attacking talent.

Oliver Molloy
95 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:02:52
Charles @ 64

Deulofeu was already on the pitch when Cleverley came on for Gana!

George Cumiskey
96 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:03:49
It's not about other teams struggling – it's about us keep playing the same way and with the same poor players match after match!
Jay Harris
97 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:08:50
As Jay said, there is something fundamentally wrong with this squad. We lack appetite and determination but most of all movement. I have never seen collectively a bunch of static lazy arses.

There are no partnerships up front either. No one is opening up space for another player. They are all individuals playing for themselves.

Jags and Oviedo weren't at their best today but the main problem is further forward. Get that alleged £100m ready to spend.

John Hammond
98 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:10:45
Well done to Burnley – they have heart.

Too many long pointless balls today when what we needed was to be getting it down the wings and in behind their packed defence.

In the 3 games we've lost this season, the opponent's 5 goals have come from 6 shots on target.

Steavey Buckley
99 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:12:15
Everton, basically, have the same players this season who underwhelmed and underplayed last season. Even worse than last season, the only Everton player who looks like scoring is Lukaku. Looks like this season will be another 'mare.' Roll on next.
John Daley
100 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:12:17
"Jesus John Daley grow up, you are still having a go at others opinions, get your own and let it go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Grow up? You're the guy going into meltdown because the manager hasn't turned a mid-table side into fucking world beaters after fourteen weeks in charge.

You posted your opinion on a forum where other people are going to see it and have a right to respond. My opinion (highlighted so it will actually sink in) is that you are talking ill thought out, reactionary shite (again, highlighted so it will hopefully sink in).

My opinion = your opinion, as expressed in your original post was akin to a pissed-up monkey flinging magnetic letters at a fridge. It made little to no sense and I pointed out the parts I disagreed with and why. Your response: whinge and wail. Pretty much the same as your post-match response.

Ralph Basnett
101 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:12:42
Jay (97), I think the issue we will have in January even if the money is there, and I don't think it is, is that we will have slipped so far behind the pack that we will not be very attractive (unless the new stadium has been announced) and will have to pay well over the odds.
Darryl Ritchie
103 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:14:14
Ouch!! That'll leave a bruise for a days. If we insist on losing to clubs that we "shouldn't", we had better turn it around and pick up full points against clubs that we "shouldn't".
Kunal Desai
104 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:15:49
Koeman said the other week that there will be defeats along the way. He clearly said it will be a two-year project and you have to believe in him. He's inherited some real shite and to get rid of rubbish can take time.

A clear out will happen over the course of the next two summer transfer windows (Jagielka, Oviedo, Mirallas, Deulofeu, Barry and Barkley). Patience will certainly be required.

Hopefully the club have identified the players they want to bring in next summer and perhaps even the summer after. It's about planning ahead long-term with an achievable strategy in place.

Phil Walling
105 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:16:43
Didn't see the game but very disappointed. Backed us to win and have already wagered we'll finish 8th.

Have I said goodbye to my money already?

David Barks
106 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:19:00
Jay Harris,

Thank you for pointing that out. It doesn't take great players to play in a system that demands constant player movement. When in possession our players are static. The ball just dies in possession of whatever player has it, regardless of who it is.

Watching Liverpool they are just in constant motion, players making run after run and the ball being played. Everything we do is individual. Bolasie gets the ball out wide and tries to go one-on-one. Mirallas the same, Deulofeu the same, Barkley the same. If every single player is doing it, at what point does that settle in that it's not the players but it's the tactics?

Similar to the past two seasons when, in defense, nobody closed down the opposition. People berated this player or that, but it was clear it was the instruction from the management.

This season, we are slow and static in attack. Overlapping runs have been limited in favor of being more safe defensively, but when they do occur the pass is rarely played to the overlapping defender. When the ball is in the middle of the pitch in the attacking third, everything comes to a stop. Every player ahead turns their back to goal and tries to block off the defender on their back.

It doesn't take great skill to have a team moving and making runs without the ball. But that doesn't seem to be Koeman's philosophy in attack. The problem is I have no idea what exactly is his attacking philosophy other than hoping the wide players can beat their man and hope a second defender doesn't simply step in to win the second battle. That, and sending a lot of aimless balls into the box with only Lukaku available to get on the end of them, usually being sandwiched by at least two defenders.

George Cumiskey
107 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:19:49
Kunal you never mentioned Cleverley – do you (like Koeman?) think he is good enough for Everton???
Andy Crooks
108 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:19:57
Ralph, it seems to me that John does not see what was an unlucky defeat as the end of the world or as a reason to burn his season ticket. Fuck me, David Moyes had eleven years. Martinez left the club in a mess and Koeman will take time to sort it.

I like a moan after a poor result, it is what we do, but who in God's name expected Koeman to clear up the mess without some setbacks? Arsenal fans must be gutted too.

Ian McDowell
109 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:20:54
As said earlier, there is a problem that's been with Everton for years. We lack confidence, courage, character, mental strength. We have a major problem with belief. We can't seem to defend under pressure. In big games, we freeze and have done for years.

Despite Liverpool have been relatively poor for the past few years (except this season) we still play them and cower with fear like the 2011 semi-final. When the chips are down and you need a result you look around and see Barkley, Deulofeu, Mirallas – you just know they don't want to be in a fight.

George Cumiskey
110 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:22:53
Ian @109 – absolutely!
Don Alexander
111 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:23:00
It seems to me that the Premier League is just a place where shysters the world over can get rich quick for next to nothing. Leicester last season did what any team should do with professional application and little more and, fuck me, won the league! That says it all.

I'm starting to go to Rugby League instead of football because there is no hiding place there, the effort is perpetual and, fuck me, it's exciting to watch from start to finish, and especially at the finish.

Rant over... for now!

Gary Reeves
112 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:23:28
We're never going to get anywhere whilst we indulge the "Dozy Kid", we're playing with 10 men. And I don't believe anybody who sees something in the "Dozy Kid" can complain about bad losses, draws or form.

The evidence is all there before you – slack in possession, slow in thought, poor shooting, no tackles, no closing down and most of all – what fookin position is he supposed to play??

Someone compared the "Dozy Kid" to Bobby Charlton on here last week. My Dad used to say that Charlton was like a Rolls Royce, which would make "Dozy Kid"... well... it would make him an ermm ... Raleigh Tomahawk... (with a slow puncture).

Eugene Ruane
113 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:23:36
Ralph, I'm curious, do you have a business card?

I'm picturing a simple, classy light cream card, with a central (helvetica bold, 28 pt) Ra!!!!!!!!!!ph

Maybe on the back 'For a quote on an angry unhinged opinion - football/politics/weather - call me on...'

James Byrne
114 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:23:37
Get a grip, fellow Evertonians – it's not pleasant to watch but we are work in progress.

We have the right Manager for the job and he is part of a long-term plan.

We've been sold a load of bullshit prior to Keoman arriving that we had a decent team. This time next season, the majority of these players won't be here.


Ian Riley
115 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:26:25
Until the board back Koeman with real money, then a top ten finish is all we can hope for. Our expectations can't be any more than that. Stuff the new ground. Success on the pitch first.

The draw against Man City means nothing. Draw against Palace and loss against Burnley are poor results. I just don't see a run of wins with this squad.

Kunal Desai
116 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:26:55
Yes you could perhaps add Cleverley and Lennon to that list along with Kone and Niasse. Then you're looking at around 10 plus players but that will happen over three to four windows. Hopefully two or three move on in January.
Mike Green
117 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:28:02
So predictable we'd fuck up again today. It's our MO. Sort it out, Koeman, FFS. I couldn't give a bollocks about dominating games – it's about winning them. Something too many of our players constantly lose sight of. Shite.
George Cumiskey
118 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:28:17
What's with all this "work in progress" bullshit?

It would sound better if there looked like any progress was being made!

Ian Hollingworth
119 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:29:44
We just have to face facts and realise we are not as good as we hope we are.

Our current players are not good enough and if we do have money then we need to make some real harsh decisions.

To progress you have to buy better players than you already have. Everton need to do that for 2 or 3 players in the next couple of windows

In the meantime, we have to accept that we are not at the same level of Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and that we are competing with Stoke, West Ham, Palace and Southampton. Like it or not, guys, that is where we are.

If you want to blame anyone, it's not the manager – it's how we have been run for far too long and the blame has to lie at the feet of the greatest ever Evertonian.

Mark Morrissey
120 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:29:50
Frank at 94, you might well be right there. Build him back up and get his confidence back.

Jay at 72, 100% spot on but I think Koeman will exorcise the ghost. You are right though, the desire to go for the jugular and attack is not there. I'd start with giving the captaincy to Williams. Jags is too quiet, too nice

Chris Gould
121 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:30:18
Patrick Murphy, Andy Walker and John Daly, thank fuck there are a few sane and rational Evertonians out there. Don't bother arguing with the many that throw a wobbly every time we get beat (It's football, it happens to everyone – and it was a robbery).

Ralph, it is you that needs to grow up. Having a "I said time and time again, he's not the manager for us!" tantrum after 9 league games is pathetic. You will end up looking like a right numpty when Koeman gets in a few players.

What exactly did Koeman do wrong? Most people agreed with the team selection. Whatever he said at half-time galvanised the team and he pushed them forward for a winner. It's football, it happens. Take it on the chin like a man and stop being a baby.

Ralph Basnett
122 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:30:26
Eugene (#113), so close, I'm actually a serial funeral attendee for hire, for those deceased with small families, I can be hired at a moment's notice.

And it's actually Ralph!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike Powell
123 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:30:28
The defending today was abysmal – what was that first goal all about?

Oh well, another weekend ruined.

Ciarán McGlone
124 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:32:48
This constant reference to a three-year period is all good and well... but it shouldn't take Koeman 3 years to coach his players to close down off the ball and find space on the ball.

Either they're too thick to coach or he's not telling them to do the basics.

Max Murphy
125 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:35:53
No team spirit, no cohesion and a dreadful malaise that has become endemic in the club and the team. Every now and then individual players show sparks of talent, but this not be enough to save us from the inevitable slide to mid-table and beyond.

New players, new managers will not solve the problem. We have become a mediocre club, bereft of ideas, and as supporters, we have to accept that – and then each successive dreadful performance becomes less painful.

Ralph Basnett
126 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:38:09
Chris (#121) if what he said at half time galvanised the team in the second half, why the fuck couldn't he have said it before the game?

No wins in our last 5 games and you're happy – wtf!!!!

George Cumiskey
127 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:40:49
Does anyone think like me Bill has lent his big mate Philip Green the war chest to plug the hole in the BHS pension fund?
Chris Gould
128 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:41:02
Thanks for that, Max. Don't be offended if I dismiss it as utter bollocks. So much bloody negativity.

I believe Koeman is the right manager. I also believe he will bring in new players in January and revamp the team. On top of this, call me gullible, but I actually believe that we will get a brand spanking kick arse new stadium and be the envy of our dear neighbours!

Try a bit of positivity. It may take you a long way in life.

Ian McDowell
129 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:41:03
What's the big thing with "we deserved this or we deserved that"? You get what you deserve in football. Look at the '85 title-winning side. We had plenty of game where we rode our luck, defended resolutely when under pressure and took our chances when on top. Every winning team does.

The fact we lost today isn't luck. Its a lack of fight and determination to keep a clean sheet and a lack of ability to create and finish or score goals when on top.

Chris Leyland
130 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:44:15
Chris Gould – if you don't think Koeman did anything wrong – can you explain the substitution of Gana for Cleverley because it struck me as 'something wrong' at the time?
George Cumiskey
131 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:48:22
Chris, mate @128 – there's a difference between a bit of positivity and living in cloud cuckoo land!
David Greenwood
132 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:53:20
Chris, bang on mate.

Long term we will go places. Short term, this hurts.

I'm convinced Koeman is the man to take us forward. He won't get everything right every time, but as long as he learns from his mistakes, we'll be fine. The previous guy didn't, this guy will.

Brian Williams
133 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:55:19
All this "calm down", "put thing into perspective", "things take time", "there's no easy games in the Premier League", "it's just a bad day at the office", ad infintum...

The obvious and undeniable fact is that Burnley were poor, very poor. There was a period where we must have had 99% possession and each time we lost it on the edge of their box, through lack of ideas, they cleared it to the half-way line and had no outlet whatsoever but were just happy to get it way from their goal. That's how bad they were.

They scored first when Stek decided to lie down for a bit, before the weak shot even reached him, and couldn't get up in time to stop a simple tap-in. That was more or less the only time they threatened other then their second goal.

The point I'm trying to make is that, as awful as they were, we lost to them. Forget about them beating the RedShite, forget about Spurs struggling against Bournemouth. The fact is that, on the day, they were poor and we were SHITE.

Not complete shite but shite where it counted. Shite in the simple task of scoring more than a poor team who tonight won't be able to believe their luck at having gained three points today.

Alan Bodell
134 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:57:03
One good thing came out of this game, we had 75% possesion and fuck all product so Koeman knows that we need a creative player (or two) so although our weekend has been...(where's that fucking cat gone?) awful, then hopefully things will improve next transfer window.
Kevin Rowlands
135 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:57:47
Terrible decision to hook Gueye when he did by Koeman, we had all the momentum at that stage and, let's face it, Cleverley is a decent Championship player at best.

As for Jags, I hate to say it, but it's starting to look like he's this season's Tim Howard, a season to long, that free-kick... I mean WTF??

Also Ross, he's never going to be the player we all thought, is he? Big changes needed in the next couple of windows; I'd start with making Nathan Redmond a top target.

Brian Williams
136 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:57:51
ps: If some of you aren't too miffed about that, then I don't for the life of me understand why!
Christy Ring
137 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:58:11
Disappointed to say the least. Koeman's selection and changes didn't help. Mirallas has been a huge let-down this season, and got caught in possession for the first goal, and his work rate is abysmal. Deulofeu flatters to deceive. Away from home, would Lennon on the right and Bolasie on the left not be a better option?

Bringing on Cleverley for Gueye was a disaster. I wouldn't even have him on the bench ahead of McCarthy. Valencia for Ross would at least have given us a chance of getting a winner.

Charles Brewer
138 Posted 22/10/2016 at 18:58:37
Oliver (#95), oops, but you get my drift!
Clive Rogers
139 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:00:06
66% posession and 20 shots tells a story. There are not enough goal scorers throughout our team. End of story.
Kim Vivian
140 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:04:30
Blimey - John Henry's milf is all right.

Mark Daley
141 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:06:07
Work in progress? Where is the progress?
Hywel Owen
142 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:06:21
There was a time, maybe it still happens, when a new manager would come into a Club and motivate the players already there to play much better, or in a different way and achieve results that the previous incumbent could not.

If this is not so, then there is no point in changing the manager without doing the same with ALL the players. If you accept this principle, then Ronald Koeman is no better than Roberto Martinez.

Dave Lynch
143 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:06:46
Anyone (and I mean Anyone!) who thought Koeman would turn this mess around this season is singing from the land of the fairies.

He has at his disposal the journeymen players that Martinez bought in, except for a couple of his own.

He took the post too late to put his own stamp on the team and I await the big bucks promised, not in January but next season.

I'll judge him this time next year.

Peter Jansson
144 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:07:17
Seriously you can talk about strategy but we do not have the players to play much differently!!!

Where are our central offensive midfielders?? We have one, Barkley, and he is not good enough!

We need to change this squad. It would not help having Klopp or Pep Guardiola as a manager with this team. We need new players!!!

Stan Schofield
145 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:10:56
Disappointing result, but not surprising. We obviously need someone threatening up front besides Lukaku. And we're not gelling very well as a team. But hopefully Koeman will sort this out.

Must admit though, I'm not clear what all the talk from Koeman (and others, like Klopp) about a 'pressing game' is all about. There's another TW thread, about Colin Harvey, which prompted me to look at a YouTube video of Everton v Man Utd in 1967, a game I went to at age 13. Alan Ball and Alex Young both playing. It's only 15 min long, but says a lot. Firstly, an 18-year-old Joe Royle is very good, but Ball and Young are also a constant goal threat. Young scores a cracker, very skillful. But he's also constantly tracking back to help Tommy Wright deal with George Best. Then he's upfield again threatening the Man Utd goal. There's constant movement, what we might call 'pressing', and the team gels. And the game looks no less fast than nowadays.

So there's all this talk at the moment of the need for a 'pressing game', but we were doing this very well 50 years ago! Is a translation required, where 'pressing' actually means commitment from players? That game in 1967 was chock full of great players, and they were all putting a shift in to complement their consummate skills.

Looks to me that Koeman's main task is one of getting commitment. We seem to have enough ability, but lacking in commitment.

Charles Brewer
146 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:11:51
The fact is, we have players as good as anyone apart from, possibly, Man City. Leicester, who won the Premier League last season, don't have a single player better than our corresponding player. Chelsea have a couple of goons who get away with it, and Man Utd are a busted flush. The RS don't have anyone of the quality of Suarez from few years ago.

Why are we so poor? Well, Lukaku, who may well be one of the most talented strikers in the Premier League sums it up: lose the ball upfield and wander back, frequently being offside if the ball comes back quickly. There is no energy in the Everton team.

The best of Man Utd's Ferguson period was shown by the fact that they always seemed to have loads of space because players were constantly in motion, and the man with the ball always had fairly easy options; when the Everton midfield or wingers get the ball, mostly their potential targets are standing still, the wrong side of an opposition player.

I understand that modern military infantry tactics involve a sort of "shoot – move fast", "shoot – move fast" approach. "Shoot – hang around" apparently gets you killed. "Lose ball – hang around" seems to be the Everton tactic, and the result, while less actually fatal, is not actually any more successful.

The team needs to get far more mobile, unfortunately, the last 3 seasons have imbued the team with a dreadful approach where possession was counted as useful; sadly, this approach is about as effective as the Maginot i.

Tony Hill
147 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:15:52
Jay (#97) and David (#106), the lack of movement is mysterious. It's the point John Daley made the other day talking about Barkley.

Movement is what all good sides have, of course – it's "pass and move" for God's sake which is what you're told when you move up from baby football.

I am putting it down, at the moment, to entrenched behaviour post-Martinez, lack of confidence, and lack of fitness. It's deadly though, not least to watch.

I agree with those calling for patience but there is truth also in the view that we had better get our next big decisions as a club spot-on, and deliver on them. I am not convinced that time is altogether on our side.

Damian Wilde
148 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:16:01
Yrs, we were robbed in a way and Burnley clearly scabbed it, but that Burnley are shite and the fact we got beat shows how we are not good enough (a pattern now, not a one off e.g. Norwich, Bournemouth, Palace, Burnley).

We all knew we needed players in the summer, especially strikers and a creative midfielder, that we didn't buy them (don't say Valencia) is an absolute DISGRACE. Are we full on skint??

Damian Wilde
149 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:17:57
This was typical Everton and I'm sick of it. Cheers for trying to put a damper on my day! Everton! I'm off on a river cruise here in North Carolina, I may not come back!
George Cumiskey
150 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:18:34
Lukaku is great running at defenders but his positional sense in the penalty area is very poor... that is why in my opinion he will never be an out-and-out great goalscorer!
Dave Abrahams
151 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:21:13
Listened to the game on the radio and, while we were not very good in the first half, we had a enough chances to win it in the second half.

I will not give up on Koeman, certainly not after nine games, but the two things that bother me are the number of times we put the opposition on the attack with very poor passing; unbelievable and not acceptable.

The other point has already been picked by a couple of fans on this thread, the complete lack of movement by most of the team – they are a very static team and both these points, poor passing and lack of movement, have been very clear for the last two seasons before this one.

I think Koeman will improve the team; it is going to take time... and plenty of it.

Albert Jones
152 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:22:09
Take the blinkers off: we were crap. Koeman can't seem to get it through their thick heads what is required, maybe too many instructions for their feeble brains to process???

Let's try going back to raw talent and instinct, can't be any worse.

George Cumiskey
154 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:26:28
Chris @146 – you are joking, please tell me you are just trying to stir things up on ToffeeWeb?
Andy Meighan
155 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:30:44
Charles (#146) – the biggest load of shit I've ever read in my life. We've got players as good as anyone...? We haven't. We've got a squad full of shit.

And this season's results will bear that out. We aren't good enough, full stop Miles behind the top 5 or 6 – and nothing soon is going to change.

Julian Exshaw
156 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:34:31
The general consensus towards the end of Martinez's tenure was that we had great players but a crap manager... but, once said 'crap manager' was gone, all things in the garden would be rosy. I never saw it as black and white as that and always felt the players had to accept their fair share of the blame for the rotten performances last season.

Two months into Koeman's reign, I ask myself whether these players have improved with new coaching, new ideas, and better fitness/discipline. The early games would suggest they haven't.

Let's see what Koeman does but the instant boost the arrival of new managers often brings has faded rather alarmingly. It's not time to send up the flares yet but there is a worrying air of negativity hanging around...

Eugene Ruane
157 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:36:50
Brin (136) - 'If some of you aren't too miffed about that then I don't for the life of me understand why!'

Well... what is not too miffed?

What exactly is your definition of miffed?

Hard to respond without knowing.

Terry White
158 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:37:08
Kevin (#135) and Christy (#137), on the surface I agree with you, it seemed strange to take off Gueye at that time. However, earlier in the half he spent a lot of time on the ground while we, with possession, played the ball around him.

He did seem okay after that, I agree. But, until we know the nature and extent of that injury, would it not be better to wait before, in typical TW fashion, we throw mud at the manager for his decisions???

Brent Stephens
159 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:40:38
I was in with the home fans today. They couldn't believe their luck when they got the winner – all second half they were anxiously on their team's back, given that we'd upped our game in the second half after a disappointing first half. I suspect Cleverley (strange substitution) was at fault in letting their man run unchallenged onto the free ball for their winner.

Not pleased but it's still early days. I have a distinct dislike for Deulofeu – he's not the only one to underperform today but I get angry at him failing to make the simple pass to keep the attack moving.

Trevor Peers
160 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:40:47
If we are going places, it will take us completely by surprise. On the evidence of today's game, we're stuck in a rut, that will take mega bucks to climb out of.

Lack of investment in the creative, goalscoring part of the team during the summer is now starting to take it's toll.

Barkley, Mirallas Deulofeu are nowhere good enough. Bolasie, does at least, have promise though.

Mick Davies
161 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:48:38
I was chuffed to see the back of Martinez, and, although Koeman wouldn't be my ideal choice, I think he was the best we could hope for. His first few games offered reasons for optimism; we were hard to beat, defending better and looking like a team – then came Norwich, and the needless changes upset our rhythm, and it hasn't been seen since.

A hard fought draw at Man City looked like a turning point, but then we see two changes, including the almost instant return of a player so publicly dropped for being out of form! (Is sitting out one game really going to change a player's form/attitude?)

Added to the continuing captaincy in the hands of one so obviously not captain material (his defensive partner definitely is), and the replacement of our most capable player. (possibly due to his booking?) by someone like Cleverley, and it makes me wonder, were the first few games the 'new boss' syndrome, and does he actually know what he's doing?

I am 100% behind any Everton manager until he's been proven unworthy of the privilege, but if Koeman doesn't replace Jags with Funes Mori and Barkley with Davies or someone equally more capable, he will be sliding down my estimation chart. I accept that he can only work with what he has, but if he can't see there is better than Jags and Ross, I fear for our league status this season...

No fight, no joined-up tactical play, no bottle, no team spirit = no points. Burnley didn't have to win today: they were given it on a plate, and if McCarthy wasn't on the bench for any other reason than being unfit, then that means our manager doesn't like hard working players who provide the team with guts, drive and aggression... something we lacked today

Joe McMahon
162 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:53:28
The second half, Barkley, Mirallas, & Deulofeu (although a late sub) just don't bring to the table what is required in Premier League football. I would have liked to have seen Lennon, but hey-ho.

We need that many new faces to replace Jagielka, Baines and Barry, I just worry Koeman will leave at the end of the season.

The Everton job is too big a task, we need at least 4 quality ready-for-the-team players, and no Europe and an awful stadium don't help.

Why won't our players shoot? I said to my wife on the 86th minute, I hope we don't regret all the domination and not taking the lead. It's so bloody predictable, year-in & year-out.

Peter Jansson
163 Posted 22/10/2016 at 19:56:23
Charles (#146),

I disagree about having good enough players. I have played a lot of football in my life and some people never learn, and it does not matter what you tell them. Now we talk about a pressing game. Just face it. For example, Mirallas or Barkley will never be very good at what you call a pressing game. They are players who want the ball, they do not want to chase it. And I think trying to teach them doing it has its limits. This comes natural on good players.

Like, for example, Mirallas: it feels like the only reason he is chasing the ball is to show Koeman that he is running, not that he has fighting spirit to get the ball. On the other hand, when he presses, no one else is following, meaning the joint pressure, or the will to bleed to get the ball back is not strong enough.

We have too much of the same wool, as we say in Sweden. Too many of the same kind of players. And just face it, we have too few of the fighting-spirit players.

Bolaise and Gueye are great at both the pressing game and playing football. Lukaku is good when he makes the effort, just it seems that the effort is not there all the time.

Brent Stephens
164 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:03:45
And was that Stek's first significant mistake, for their first goal?
Chris Gould
165 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:08:00
Terry at (#158): very well said. Unfortunately, many on here like to moan and point fingers.

Gueye may have been carrying a knock. Koeman may have been concerned that the card-happy ref could have given him another unwarranted yellow. Or it could have been that Burnley had shown zero attacking threat and Koeman felt that Cleverley was more of a goal threat. ut some on here will jump on anything to whine and criticise.

Nobody is happy with the result, but the negativity is beyond reasonable.

Alan McGuffog
166 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:09:55
Stan (#145). Agree with all you say except that the full version from Match of the Day was around 45 minutes. All without having to listen to the drivel of Murphy, Keown, Shearer et al.

We have watched, basically, shite from Everton since 1988 and so I live in the past, increasingly, convinced that we shall never improve.

The point you make that I endorse 100% is the tenaciousness in the tackle of one Alex Young. Most people who watched him would never think of him doing his bit to support the defence but, on that occasion, at least he pulled his tripes out.

Hope you got to see the tackle that Howard does on Georgie Best in the centre circle. Welcome to L4 indeed.

Back to the future!

Trevor Peers
167 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:14:41
Chris (#165) by Tuesday you and many others will be telling us Ross has everything in his locker to make Everton great again.

I don't think Koeman sees it that way, he looked well pissed off by the end.

Peter Cummings
168 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:17:14
Having just read of Koeman's further assessment and determination not to play Niasse, no matter how many goals he scores in the boonies, I am getting a sense that his attitude is getting more like Martinez who, to say the least, has the view "I am always right and nothing will change."

By all accounts, Niasse is starting to emerge as a real striking force under Dave Unsworth who has himself proved his credentials as a top class coach with a reserve team loaded with promising talent good enough for first team inclusion.

Meanwhile, Koeman continues with his Martinezque identity with 'wrong' subs who contribute nothing to the teams progress continuing to field players who are clearly not interested or good enough for the job. In short, in many Everton fans' eyes, Koeman himself isn't good enough for the job.

Jonathan Tasker
169 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:18:27
Everton Football Club is broken from top to bottom.

It's all over and will remain this way until Kenwright departs.

Joe McMahon
170 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:20:53
Alan (#166), don't forget, Kenwright has been Chairman for the majority of our downfall, sitting at his desk (when not in London) in a wooden dump stadium.
Patrick Murphy
171 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:22:07
Sack the Dutch Konman, let David Unsworth and Duncan Ferguson have a go! Seriously, perhaps Everton FC should have gone down that route seeing as they both realise what Evertonians require from their teams and both would have had a pretty good idea about the players already on the books, both within the first team squad and in the younger teams.

Bringing in a person from outside was not a cheap option –in fact it was pretty expensive. Obviously the level of player available throughout the first team squad lacks certain qualities that lesser teams seem to have, ie, hard-working, dogged players who realise their limitations but never say never.

On the other hand, those who believed that changing the results of the team would happen overnight, following two years of pretty damning evidence and results, were being overly optimistic. Yes, this lot can live with some of the better teams in the Premier League on their day, and that's the problem – only on their day, on most days they fail to live up to the expectations, no matter how low those expectations are.

Today wasn't a bad performance; it was a horrible result, but not a horrible performance. Whether Ronald can extract much more from this current group, we can only wait and see. He wouldn't be throwing the crockery all over the dressing room as a result of the performance but he will know as much as any of us that we have to start turning up from minute one and more importantly get a victory from somewhere, hopefully next weekend.

The trouble with managing a non-sleepy major city football club is that patience tends to be in short supply and, although it's not the current manager's fault, this will be the third successive season that Everton FC will likely fail to trouble the engravers or the passport office, unless of course everything clicks into place sooner than most of us expect. Don't expect the board to wave the magic pound wand in the next window; they usually don't, so it will be a case of the manager taking some risks on some youngsters or getting a great deal more out of his attackers and, for that matter, his defenders.

It's going to be a bumpy ride, but we're used to that, or at least we ought to be. Having written all of that, if the team match the current points ratio for the remaining 29 games, we'll be sitting on something like 60 points; not good enough for Europe perhaps but good enough for a first full season?

John Daley
172 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:23:28
"Must admit though, I'm not clear what all the talk from Koeman (and others, like Klopp) about a 'pressing game' is all about"

Stan, you clearly do know what it means as proved by the rest of your post, but I myself share your mild bemusement at the continual stressing of 'pressing' as the be-all and end-all, as though it is a one-word, one-action quick-fix for any and all problems a team might currently be facing out on the pitch. 

Personally, I think we also need to shift the ball quicker, look to move into space to receive it rather than standing still, be more decisive when in possession,and have to (somehow) find a way of creating chances other than funnelling it out wide for a hopeful cross into the box. It also seems shots from distance have become something of a dying art from the boys in blue and I'd be telling them (a team who struggle to score enough goals) to shoot on sight rather than only ever chancing your arm from inside the box. 

'Pressing', 'more pressing', 'faster pressing', 'we need to be better at pressing' is fine as a foundation to build upon, but it isn't going to improve any of the above. As Eugene mentioned earlier on this thread, it's crying out for some intelligence and nous to go along with the effort and improved work rate.

Paul Conway
173 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:23:40
Mick Davies (#161),

I agree with most of what you say, especially the Barkley - Jags theory. But don't shoot the piano player... Koeman. He can only play with the cards he was dealt.

He is going to change the whole decor. Honestly, do you think that he is excited to play the team he does? Would he have bought these players, if he was at another club and they were on the market? The answer, I think is no.

Are these players going to improve? The answer, I think is no!

Barkley has gained so much muscle that even his brain has become musclebound that he can't make an intelligent football decision. The worst is happening, because, these duds are fast losing their sell-on value. Not only are Evertonians witnessing a decline, but other managers and fans are seeing the weaknesses. They have been blagging it for far too long.

I couldn't help notice that MBD were sporting red boots. I think this was the equivalent of hi-visibility jackets, so you could spot them!... and it worked for me!

So, poor Koeman has to put up with this circus act until he can orchestrate a replacement. We have to be patient with the boss and only judge him when he rids our club of these over-hyped egos. And it's these egos who are going to bring us to our inevitable mid-table finish.

John Daley
174 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:27:27

Koeman catches his wife watching a super he ro movie

RK: A movie you are watching? You have completed your chores for today already? 

Mrs K: Yes, dear. 

RK: Is that so? 

Mrs K: Sit and watch with me, why don't you? 

RK: Okay. What is this film you have found the free time to sit and idly watch? 

Mrs K: It is Ironman 2. With Robert Downey the Jnr and man called Mickey with melted face. How about we watch together? Then, afterwards, we could open a bottle of wine, snuggle up, watch Fifty Shades of Grey and then go upstairs and fool around?

Mr K: No. Afterwards: Iron Woman

Mrs K: There is an Iron Woman now as well? Wow, I did not know! Is she going to be in the Avengers also?


Mr K. That was not me telling you the name of a super hero.

Mrs K: Oh.

Mr K: Pressing, wife. Pressing. Always! Be! Pressing! 

Mrs K: That was not exactly the kind of steamy I had in mind.

Mr K: Pressing is key. Without the hard work and the constant pressing, the happy home life, it can never come and... err... nor can the husband.

John Daley
175 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:33:46
"Don't expect the board to wave the magic pound wand in the next window, they usually don't"

WHAT? I bought my season ticket on the back of Moshiri's subliminal promise that he had one of these stashed in his slacks pocket:


Well, they can shove it if that's not the case. I'm mailing it back on Monday. Second class, like.

Barry Jones
176 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:37:51
I just checked my calendar and confirmed that it is indeed October ...2016. The content on this thread led me to believe that I must have dozed off and skipped 7 or 8 months. The considerable amount of premature and negative comments that are suggesting that nothing has changed and that Koeman is useless are absolutely mind blowing. Even the "positive" comments are suggesting that nothing will change this season.

Why don't we all settle down a bit and revisit this conversation around Christmas time or New Year? Those with season tickets in one hand and a cigarette lighter in the other need to sit down with a six-pack, relax and "look on the brighter side of life", Martinez could still be with us.

Yes, the result today was dreadful. The performance, while not stellar, was not dreadful. We should have and could have won that game, wrapping it up with time to spare, but we didn't. I concur that there were some poor individual displays and Lukaku's utter laziness galls me (why didn't we take the money when we had the chance?).

But... we should not panic and jump ship. Hang on for the ride. It may be a bit bumpy right now but I am confident that we are in good hands going forward.

Mark Wilson
177 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:39:36
Part of the anger at results like losing to Burnley, Bournemouth, Norwich is simply frustration that two seasons of Martinez madness have basically set us back years... probably three or four, tbh. I thought, hoped maybe, that Koeman might have had a quicker impact but the squad is just lacking in quality and the club's "performance" in the summer transfer window just not enough to make a difference quickly.

Obviously I'm out of step with some here because I find it amazing that this result is simply seen as a hard luck story and let's not be too critical... really? We played well-ish for 20 mins in the first half then let Burnley into it and eventually take the lead after a useless lunge from Williams left Burnley with lots of space to run at Jags who seemed to have lost sight of the ball or Vokes or both and Stekelenburg was as bad then as he was good last week.

In the second half, we appeared to dominate, creating a fair few chances but often the attacks looked chaotic and the final ball was rubbish... can we just beat the first man at corners a few times? Just a few would be great. We then failed to react at all to their lucky winner and okay the guy who scored should have been sent off... but then so might've Coleman, easily.

I thought we were supposed to be better organised at the back? I don't see it myself. We let Garbutt and Galloway leave on loan, get one player we badly need injured, and when his replacement looks out of his depth, we have no options left to try anything else. Why ?

Results are all that matters and we are losing games to teams who I think will be bottom half at the end of the season, if not fighting relegation. But then we are a bottom half team right now with only a handful of players I'd honestly be keen to keep, and a new manager who somehow I don't think has quite yet sussed out what to do for the best in terms of shape, and is yet to sort the defence despite a new centre back and allegedly better organisation.

Hopefully we will pick up again but it's going to get harder than Burnley or Bournemouth very quickly.

Christy Ring
178 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:41:25
Mick (#161), Agree totally. If Gueye was injured, and had to come off, fair enough, but Cleverley is not the answer. He's not aggressive, won't do 50/50 challenges. If McCarthy, who got stuck in against Man City last week, was fit, it was a very bad call by Koeman.
Paul Conway
179 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:45:50
Patrick Murphy (#171),

I studied your post. Then I tried to read it while rapidly blinking my eyes... err ...emm...

Now, I am off to the pub – all because of Everton! And I am going to have another go at reading it when I come back!

Hywel Owen
180 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:47:40
For "pressing" read "depressing"
Eddie Dunn
182 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:55:41
After the disappointment has receded, and a good dinner consumed, I find myself reflecting on the game.

It is obvious that we lack a clever midfielder to open up stubborn defences. This will remain a problem until we sign one. The team improved in the second half, and Heaton kept them in it, just like Stekelenburg kept us in it last week.

We were caught when we pressed for the winner. It seems we can defend when we are set, but if we are committing men forward, we are more vulnerable. The fact is Barry, Jags and Williams are not blessed with pace, and once the wonderful covering efforts of Gueye were removed in favour of Cleverley, we just couldn't move quickly enough.

We are simply not creating enough clear-cut chances, so we don't take advantage when we are on top. We are work in progress, and expectations must be tempered after a cushy set of fixtures have given us false hope for the season. Anything above halfway will be progress.

Neil Sagar
183 Posted 22/10/2016 at 20:56:38
Don't overreact, everyone. Yes, it was a defeat but Burnley struggled to get out of their own half for the last 30 minutes and shit happens.

Like I keep repeating on various threads, we need 3 players immediately and in this order: No 10, right winger, centre mid. That improves the starting 11, then we need proper back-up for Lukaku. Let's just hang in there until January then hopefully the new owner and management will sort it.

Tony Hill
184 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:01:01
I wonder how Ronald's lack of easy public charm is fitting with the tried and trusted Charitable and Family Club ethos which is so much now part of Everton that one might almost say that it has become as important in some people's eyes as the football? Does he truly gel with Snods, Sharpy & Co, and with the Great Ham who still, I suspect, calls many of the shots?

Does he put an arm around Unsy, another long-standing Everton family man, to chat about their respective views of Niasse? Do all of the players still find him a bracing new influence?

I do hope it's all going smoothly there, behind the scenes.

Sean Patton
185 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:03:13
I was also at the game so had to endure that late fiasco surrounded by slack-jawed yokels. Burnley were lucky to win considering they barely crossed the half way line in the second 45 but that display was just nowhere near good enough against a promoted team.

Aimless long balls with no creativity in midfield, the service to Lukaku in particular was terrible. Koeman has got away with the "style" of play so far because the results have been good but, once they start to go awry, there is nothing left to hang onto.

Patrick Murphy
186 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:03:18
Tony (#184)... Are you suggesting that all might not be well on board the good ship Everton?
George Cumiskey
187 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:04:29
Chris @165,

Cleverly more of a attacking threat – oh my god!

Peter Jansson
188 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:04:37
Seriously. You guys that are complaining about Koeman – he is not to blame. He has been here for a couple of months, and he is not a magic wizard who overnight can change the minds of the players.

As I have said now several times, we do not have the player material to compete at the top of the table. Just face it.

What is irritating me is that it seems like several players do not really listen to what Koeman is saying, as this performance in offence looks like Martinez style bs.

I do not think the defence is to blame for this loss. The first goal was a mistake and the second was a lucky one, it could have happened to any team. The problems are in the offense. We cant get the most basic things done like winning a header in the offensive penalty box or getting shots at goal.

We cannot either pass the ball in a quick tempo, as many players keep the ball for too long slowing the pace down (Barkley and Deulofeu). When the central offensive midfielder slows the game down, it pretty much affects the whole team. Koeman does not have any other options here than putting Deulofeu or Mirallas on offensive central. But it has not worked very good either.

Peter Jansson
189 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:09:15
#184 Do you think it sound healthy to be a "family club". To me it sounds like a sickness.

Companies that go and hire only familiy do not tend to be very successful, so why should football clubs? What is key is professionalism.

Tony Hill
190 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:12:59
Yes, I am, Patrick. I hope it isn't true.
Paul Conway
191 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:14:05
All we hear nowadays is 'high pressing' as if it is the new black. What a load of bollocks. Pressing comes from the continent and it's their way of saying 'attacking'. I live in France and for donkeys all I can hear is the commentator saying 'bon pressing par PSG'! or whatever.

As there are so many foreign managers or 'coaches' in the Premier League at the minute, they almost all use the expression 'pressing', but this is attacking, as we have known it since we discovered football.

PRESSING! Well I never. Are these gurus trying to teach a chimpanzee how to grimace?

Colin Malone
192 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:19:14
Let's hope when playing the Red Shite, that they don't pick up on Stekelenburg is uncomfortable diving to his left. I think he's been playing great. But is this his Achilles heel?
George Cumiskey
193 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:21:48
Isn't it great we have Martinez to fall back on when we are crap. I wonder how long it will be before we realise that the players – along with the last manager – are also shit .
Geoff Evans
194 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:25:13
Sat in front of the screen for the last hour trying to compose a thread that would go some way to expressing my disappointment, frustration and anger at the way things are starting to pan out in the current campaign. I can't think of anything to add that I or others haven't already expressed here or elsewhere.

I don't expect us to be the best team in the world or even in the Premier League; what I do expect is to have a team that goes out and performs with pride and is worthy of the name of Everton FC.

To my mind, the club are employing too many people who are either not capable, or much worse, who can't be bothered to step up to the level expected of them.

I'd better go now before my feelings get the better of me and I say something that gets me banned, again, from the site.

Alan Bodell
195 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:29:36
The only good thing about today was the music when the teams came out – Arcade Fire – but we need a playmaker badly and Koeman has the money, so let's hope, eh?
Mike T Jones
196 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:36:52
i want to give Koeman and Walsh and Moshiri two years, not 14 weeks.

What more can I say?

Tony Abrahams
197 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:37:43
Got to post 73, which was off John Daley, and because it resonated with my drunken brain, I decided to post. because I remember losing to Man City in the semi's last season, and my posts after the game, about the senior players in the squad banging on Martinez's door, were met by some people as WHY? Why would they do that?

I had the same feeling today when Burnley scored the winner, only this time I feel it will be for the good of the team. Whereas before, I was saying the squad, should be questioning Martinez, tonight I had the feeling that Koeman will be questioning the squad?

What will he be saying? Anything I suppose, but what he's trying to create is so much more important in this case! Personality and a winners mentality; it's not the manager's fault that these were the two main ingredients that were lacking when he took over Everton FC!

Allan Board
198 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:38:07
Ronald Koeman is a proud man, a once-great player and a damn good coach. Talk of him being sacked is pathetic and childish.

For goodness sake, accept the fact that the players are of poor quality and that it will be a juggling act for Koeman until perhaps January, but more realistically next summer until he starts the clear out.

He will keep the team in this league no problem – and then promptly off-load the majority of the current team.

I am expecting some notable wins this season along with shit days like today – but not much else. Koeman will make Everton competitive again, given the time and the money, no problem.

As I have said before, the only fly in the ointment is the erstwhile Kenwright. He is the one who needs removing because, if he tries to stitch Koeman up over transfers, then Koeman will tell him to shove it and a chance of a better Everton will be gone.

Let's hope Kenwright goes soon.

John Raftery
199 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:46:37
This was a game we really ought to have won. We certainly should not have lost it. At the final whistle most of our fans including me were critical of the manager's substitutions. Deulofeu has done nothing in recent weeks to suggest he is a match winner while the decision to withdraw Gueye disrupted our midfield control. Stekelenburg must also carry a large share of culpability. After his heroics last week, his blunder to gift the opening goal was catastrophic.

It was in the final third of the field where our most serious problems were evident. The lack of cohesion and the failure to provide decent service to Lukaku enabled a very poor Burnley team to fend off numerous attacks. The fact Heaton had only one save of note after the opening 20 minutes says much about the lack of penetration in attack. Lukaku performed adequately as a target man but while that was commendable we really want to see him running at pace towards the opposition.

After a bright opening Barkley faded, playing innumerable safe balls out to the flanks and failing to strike at the heart of the opposing defence. Mirallas, at fault in the build-up to the opening goal, was inconsistent and appears to have lost the goal-scoring threat he posed in the early weeks.

Of the front players, only Bolasie could be happy with his performance. Despite his own inconsistency, he at least showed he can score goals and appears to have the hunger any attacking player needs. He was our Man of the Match.

So the good work at City last week was well and truly undone with this very disappointing defeat. The early season momentum has disappeared with a poor run of five games without a win.

Thus far Koeman has persisted with players who are out of form but unless they start to deliver very quickly they may soon find themselves out of favour with a manager who understandably looked less than pleased as he trooped off the field in front of the away section. The next match at home to West Ham can now be categorised as a 'must win' fixture.

Dave Abrahams
200 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:49:03
Sometimes you talk a lot of sense when you are drunk, Tony (#197).
Andrew Clare
201 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:54:29
I am confident that Ron will get it right but it may take 2 or 3 transfer windows. Too many of our players are 'nearly' men. Very skillful and gifted but lacking in the consistency required to be a top level player.

There isn't any creativity in the team and the creativity is what sets winners apart from the also-rans. Today, we were unlucky.

Dave Abrahams
202 Posted 22/10/2016 at 21:56:49
Peter (#189), I think that is what Tony (#184) was hinting at.
Tony Abrahams
203 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:03:26
I honestly think we are two players away from being a very good team. Maybe three because, for a captain of Everton Football Club, I thought Phil Jagielka's efforts were not worthy of such a position?

I was impressed in the first half by how quickly we got it out of our feet and played, and in the second of how we kept up the tempo of our attack.

Burnley, did come back into the game after we equalised, but I honestly think that was because we never had enough belief in ourselves. A captain is supposed to give his team belief, but I honestly don't think Jagielka has got much of that in himself at the minute...

Colin Malone
204 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:04:20
I have seen centre forwards who score many goals for there teams and finish at the wrong end of their division.

I have too much to explain but get shut of Romelu Lukaku. Our Diamond Ross needs a centre forward who moves around defenders, not one who expects the ball at his feet in a packed penalty area. Keep faith with Our Diamond until we get rid of the lazy man.

Andy Crooks
205 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:04:58
John (#172) and the rest – good points.

I recall that, when we signed Gibson, he had a ferocious shot and was, according to Man Utd mates, capable of scoring two or three long range goals a season. Well, not anymore. I honestly have no recollection of him EVER having a shot on goal.

I would be happier seeing a long range effort end an attack than the over-elaborate shite we currently engage in.

Don Alexander
206 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:06:24
Like Alan McGuffog at #166, I fully endorse Stan Schofield at #145. Today's players rarely have to take a proper tackle like Kendall's on Best, and in those days players contracts stipulated meaningful bunce based on the result, cue despondency/bollockings all round in the dressing room when beaten by the likes of lowly Burnley (just ask the likes of Joe Royle).

Like others have said, our squad has a serious shortfall in terms of attitude and application, like the majority of other clubs, but if they are both too thick or complacent to understand and desire what largely bog-standard Leicester players achieved by way of old-fashioned virtues last season, then get rid and just pray that Steve Walsh really does show the Merlin touch as soon as possible.

I defended them when the Catalan Clown was in charge but I really do expect way better when they're being coached by Messrs Koeman and Kluitenberg because they have the credentials to demand compliance.

Chris Gould
207 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:06:24
George at 187:

Yes, it is quite plausible to suggest that Koeman may have felt Cleverley was more of a goal threat than Gueye. Cleverly has 25 league goals in 155 appearances. Gueye has 5 league goals in 147 appearances. So, statistically speaking, Cleverly scores 5 goals to every 1 that Gueye scores.

I imagine your, "oh my God" to have been in a rather girly and over exaggerated squeal. No need for histrionics, the stats back up what was a reasonable hypothetical.

Chris Gould
208 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:13:47
Andrew 201: I agree with your assessment. 2-3 windows will allow him to bring in the quality we clearly need. I believe Koeman worked out very quickly what was required, but unfortunately some of the players were out of reach in the summer. I expect 1 or 2 fresh faces in January and then hopefully a few more in the summer.

Koeman needs time to create his own team. He has been handed too many players who just aren't good enough.

Oliver Molloy
209 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:16:52
No point in going on about this and that. At the end of the day, you get what you deserve in football and today we got it – once again! You get out what you put in.

Last week, we should have got we deserved and got very lucky, this week just shows how big a job Koeman has on his hands.

Jay Griffiths
210 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:21:30
Not since Pienaar and Arteta have we had a player round the box that can bamboozle, sell a kipper, reverse pass. Look left then slide a ball to the right. We are so one-dimensional.

We break out from our box to 10 yards into the opponent's half then are forced to about-face. Always due to no options. Players locked behind the opposition or running in the wrong areas. This allows the opposition to retreat in numbers then themselves about-face.

These are professional footballers who practise six days a week. It infuriates me when a team cannot offer multiple options. The man on the ball at Arsenal will have two or three options most of the game. So easy for the man in possession. So often our men have to try to beat men as a last resort as the options are limited.

It's a mindset. We need players to adapt or move on. The January window could be critical for new signings, but in my opinion it could also be crucial that we cast aside those that are not suited to the correct mindset. Purge, or cull those that plug the system. A long list that could be.

Chelsea could be brutal. Also, because they're cash strapped, Chelsea are the first team this season that has charged more than the £15 for my youngest son. £23.50. The £8.50 extra is no surprise. Chelsea, self-righteous bellends to a man. We go with hope but not expectations.

Tony Abrahams
211 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:24:03
But how many goals has Cleverley scored for Everton, Chris? The manager will be frustrated, I'm sure, by a distinct lack of character in Everton's forward players, and his actions I hope will have led to very strong fucking words in the changing room at the end.

Winners have leaders, whilst our leaders have never won a fucking thing! "I'm waiting", said Ronald – I'm just hoping he got a proper fight in reply!

Everton Football Club and its fans deserve so much better. You don't have to be the most talented to know how to fucking fight for for the institution!

Paul Conway
212 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:36:21
John Raftery (#199),

Pure sense!

Tony Abrahams
213 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:42:33
The longer the seasons goes, the more optimistic I will become, I'm sure.

Jay (#210), Chelsea away has been brutal for fucking years, let's just hope that paying over the odds for a ticket will be worth it in the end for your fanatical kids!

Peter Jansson
214 Posted 22/10/2016 at 22:47:20
Okay, Dave (#202) – I am getting carried away here. :-)
Paul Conway
215 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:05:28
I am disappointed by the result, but not the performance of our usual stoic players. As for the usual suspects! Well what did you expect?

We did enough to win the game handsomely. Apart from the very fortunate first goal we conceded, add the more than fortunate winner they scored... take away the sublime Bolasie effort and add the lacklustre effort by our usual under achievers and the answer is?

Bolasie, Lukaku, Williams, Gana, and Coleman are carrying the rest of the squad. I wouldn't be surprised if the team has not broken into two clans in the dressing room... The industrious and the scroungers!

People are starting to point the finger at Koeman already, but I wouldn't be surprised if Koeman walked.

Jimmy Hogg
216 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:06:57
Guess Mr Moshiri is wondering what he's got himself into. Fans expect him to build a new stadium and build a new team, all with only a billion pounds. He's probably just realising how big a job he's took on and how quickly his money will disappear. I can't believe some are already calling for him to go.

On a positive note, Tom Heaton looks a good keeper to go for.

Colin Hughes
217 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:09:36
Having just watched the RedShite on MotD create chance after chance and look fit and sharp, I am already planning for a miserable Christmas given that the derby is the last game before it this year. Absolutely no hope of us ending the 6-year winless run in the fixture.
Ernie Baywood
218 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:26:39
I thought we did okay for half-an-hour yesterday and then fell into a pattern of play that made no sense. In fact, it was eerily reminiscent of last season under Bobby.

We moved the ball too slowly to break them down, seemingly relying on moving the ball wide to cross the ball in. But then we don't have anyone who actually wants to go in the box, so the ball just gets worked back inside and across to the other flank. I was incredulous watching Lukaku standing 20 yards out alongside Barkley, Bolasie, Mirallas, Oviedo and Coleman. A six-man straight line across the edge of the box. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Lukaku's a top, top player, but I'm starting to wonder whether he's even a striker. He looks like a striker but doesn't want to do anything associated with the job. In Mirallas's position, he would get the ball facing goal and be able to run at players. Of course we would still need a striker.

The way we played just screamed for a disappointment. As soon as they got that free kick, I told my kids this was the chance Burnley had been waiting for and a winner was nailed on.

Patrick Murphy
219 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:33:40
Colin (#217),

The telly does have an off button, I never watch them whether they win, lose or draw, only when they play at Goodison. It's bad enough being a blue at times – why duplicate the angst by watching them too, particularly on a day like today?

There is absolutely no chance of ending any run if we all adopt such a negative attitude. We've had far worse teams than the current one and have overcome the other lot even when they were much the better team. Admittedly we have also had superior teams to theirs and have lost.

Let's wait until the game is played and it's just as important to focus on our next game, rather than one six weeks hence.

Stan Schofield
220 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:43:38
John @172:

What I find puzzling is the fact that managers like Koeman and Klopp keep pointing out the need for 'pressing'. I actually thought that pressing was a GIVEN, a necessary condition for any professional player. It should be implicit, with no need for constant reminders.

It seems ironic that the Everton side in that 1967 game is arguably the best Everton side of all time in terms of pure talent, but has 100% commitment from each player, whereas our current Everton side is not as good in terms of pure talent, yet apparently gives less than adequate commitment.

On the one hand, great players playing their hearts out, and on the other hand not so great players not playing their hearts out. You can't put talent in when nature hasn't provided it, but you can at least give 100% commitment every time. The problem now seems to be that there isn't 100% commitment.

Minik Hansen
221 Posted 22/10/2016 at 23:45:07
This match hints a more interesting team than what was delivered. I hope Deulofeu starts in the next game, the home crowd will get behind him for his displays this afternoon. The next game being at home is a blessing. This will likely result in quite a few goals from our side, mark my words.
Anthony Dwyer
223 Posted 23/10/2016 at 00:05:10
Minik, I thought Deulofeu was shite, tbh!

I'm starting to think a mass clear out is our only way forward. Players like Cleverley, Gibson, Mirallas, Deulofeu, Kone, Niasse, Valencia etc have to go so as Koeman has some confidence in his bench.

The decision to bring on Cleverley instead of an attacker was shocking, but it tells its own tale.

Also, if you're on the payroll, you should be considered; Niasse is scoring and no-one else is. Koeman has tried his options, he's gone around in circles, no-one is scoring, no-one is very likely too apart from Rom. Something has to give.

Brian Wilkinson
224 Posted 22/10/2016 at 00:16:02
At least Bolasie evened it up with Lukaku with stealing a goal off him.

Nothing more to say that has not already been said on here...I'm too pissed off to even try to add anything different.

Rob Halligan
225 Posted 22/10/2016 at 00:22:43
Just home from the game. Well, to be honest, home from town, got back to Lime Street about 7:30pm, and town was already heaving with red shite, whose game could only have ended 5 minutes earlier!!

Anyway, back to us. I'd have been totally disappointed to draw. To lose was a real kick in the bollocks. The main talk on the train back was our lack of shots on goal. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall, albeit through a blurred memory, about 3 or 4 efforts on goal in the first half which their goalie saved.

Their first goal, well was it a mistake by Stek? Was probably going wide, but the golden rule for goalkeepers is never assume and always make the save unless he knows for certain the ball is going wide. By making the save, he inadvertently set up the goal.

The second half was one-way traffic, all towards our end. Once we'd equalised, for me there was only one winner. Some good approach play, with crosses from the wings, and only deft touches from either the goalie or a defender, prevented Rom from adding a second. Their winner coming from, what I remember, their only attack of the second half.

Burnley fans would have been ecstatic with a draw. To win, well they probably thought Christmas had come early.

Unlike most on this thread, I have only seen the match as it happened. I've not had the benefit of action replays, or MotD highlights, but to say we were rubbish is, well, rubbish, but as I've said, correct me if I'm wrong.

Finally, there appears to be too many posts regarding the RS. If people are so obsessed with them, the answer is simple Go and support the fuckers!!


Damian Wilde
226 Posted 23/10/2016 at 00:34:06
Fair summary, Rob. I think the 'rubbish' didn't relate to our general play, but our lack of finishing and the fact of late we can't beat shit teams, which you could argue makes us 'rubbish'.

Ever since the Norwich defeat, we haven't won... anyone else think this was a catalyst? Okay, of course the disastrous transfer window is a significant factor, but still Koeman fucked up that evening.

Agree, forget the RS, why mention them on an Everton site?

Andrew Presly
227 Posted 23/10/2016 at 00:45:41
They were bumping into each other today, sad lack of cohesion. All the players won't understand the magnitude of Everton losing at Burnley either. The "we go again" culture. They're paid well.
John Pierce
228 Posted 22/10/2016 at 00:59:51
What bit of "Everton need to win now" aren't people getting? People yammering on about this window and that window... If we don't find a way to win games now, then no one will come in the next 'effing window.

Koeman isn't here for three years, he's here to win quick, get up the table, and move on. So enough of the 'project' crap, that is lip service from Koeman. It is naive to believe so.

Ambitious clubs don't wait 2 years, they keep changing mangers until they find someone who can do it under pressure and with whatever squad they inherit.

Time the fanbase to adjust – be harsh and not suffer fools.

Patrick Murphy
229 Posted 23/10/2016 at 01:25:40
John (#228),

Of course it's all about winning but we need more than a quarter of a season to decide whether the current boss is failing. It's debatable that we could attract somebody better, if somebody was available that would cost a lot of money (again) which will reduce the budget for buying players and wouldn't guarantee any more success on the pitch, than we are having this season so far.

I agree that the manager has to find a way to get this group of players to win more matches more often, but you can't build something without the right materials, and currently this Everton squad is lacking some basic elements, which must frustrate the manager as much as it frustrates us. The problem is that the previous manager should have been shown the door in the New Year of 2015, he wasn't and we are paying the price for that to some extent now.

The performance today wasn't as bad as some would have it, the result was awful, but last week the performance wasn't great but the result was OK. Haven't Everton over the last ten years been fairly similar – inconsistent, failing to win matches they ought to have won, lacking in guile in the final third, making daft errors at the back which leads to goals conceded. It's not as if we have invested heavily in the playing squad is it? We sold one defender to help fund the addition of four players who on the whole have been positive additions. I wonder where we would be if we had kept Stones and not bought in the likes of Gueye, Bolasie and Williams.

It seems funny to me that most Evertonians showed Moyes and Martinez a lot more patience than they possibly deserved but somehow are ready to see Koeman replaced after less than a dozen games.

I'm not sure what some fans were expecting but I'm fairly sure we're about where many would have expected us to be at this juncture and we are a long way from the dark days of last season. There are some signs of progress but some of the bad habits haven't been totally eradicated and we can expect some bad results along the way, but hopefully, by the end of this season, we'll see a much more productive team than we have at the moment.

Victor Jones
230 Posted 23/10/2016 at 01:37:10
I suppose that sometime in the coming week a senior player will be ushered forward to say that the team must do better. That lessons will be learnt. And that the players cannot wait to put things right.... Yyyyaaaawwnn

Eyes now roll to the heavens... now where did I hear all that before?

Gordon Crawford
231 Posted 23/10/2016 at 01:42:14
It doesn't hurt players enough to lose. We should not be losing to Burnley. If I was in Koeman's position, I would drop these prima donnas and play some kids. And maybe, just maybe, we would get total commitment for 90+ mins. Sick of this crap.
John Pierce
232 Posted 23/10/2016 at 01:53:38
Patrick, I can't disagree with what you've said if it were 5, 6 or 10 years ago. But our situation has shifted from 'overachieving' with a limited budget to needing to achieve with a generous budget and little time to get there or risk losing the best the players we have, and a manager who has little sentiment will walk away if it ain't working to keep his reputation intact. That's why I judge Koeman in the same terms he judges others.

We have no excuses of a budget constraint but, if we cannot get this group of players to keep us in the frame, those potential replacements will drift away and we will be left perennially trying to bridge a gap without the players capable of doing so. That is why now is fundamentally critical to Everton's current situation to be in contention come January and May, not in 2 or 3 years.

Patrick Murphy
234 Posted 23/10/2016 at 02:08:08
John (232) I tend to agree with you on the 'Koeman having no loyalty to Everton' statement. However, has the board truly backed him to do what we all want to see or have they reverted to the usual make-do-and-mend policy? Which might explain why some players are not performing too differently to how they have always performed at Goodison.

If Koeman was to leave anytime soon, our next appointment would likely be from within with the dream-team scenario of Unsy and Big Dunc – not my dream team, btw, but a dream for the board as they won't have to fund those two the same way as they should and would have to fund Koeman. It's going to be yet another interesting six months as we see the intent of the 'new' owners and exactly what the real colour of their money is.

Ernie Baywood
236 Posted 23/10/2016 at 02:45:14
One thing I'll think we'll find out with Koeman is whether we are prepared to invest in the side. He's not shy of saying what he thinks... if he's told to make do on a modest budget, I reckon we'll hear all about it.

Realistically that's where our improvement will come from. Ron might make us meaner in defence, he might be able to make an incremental improvement from mid-table to upper mid-table, but a step change in the capability on the pitch each week will require a completely different approach around buying players.

Providing we don't go backwards, that's what I'm most interested to see. Anything else is just flirting around the edges. In football, you have to wait for the next window. Gutted but realistic. It isn't going to come quickly.

Damian Wilde
237 Posted 23/10/2016 at 04:09:45
Agree with Patrick, where is the money from the board? Valencia on loan is classic Everton. It's pathetic.
Craig Fletcher
238 Posted 23/10/2016 at 04:16:09
Just finished watching a replay of the game, thought I would take a couple of deep breaths and let the fume subside before posting.

A few thoughts:

1) Our performance was actually not that bad. Certainly not as bad as Bournemouth away. Build-up play in general was good, however what seemed clear to me was that we were very shot-shy. Burnley, by comparison, seemed to take a shoot-on-sight policy every time they got near our penalty box. As luck would have it, this paid off for them with a couple of tap-ins from our goalkeeping error and a rebound from the crossbar. But, you make your own luck, as they say.

2) I know that the "Lukaku is a lazy bastard" routine is popular when we lose, but he was no worse than anyone else in our attacking front four. He pressed well and kept trying. That first touch, though...

3) Burnley played well, we have to admit that. A huge element of luck, yes, but they rode that luck and defended well.

4) I think, judging by some of the posts on this thread, that reality may be hitting home for some on here about our expectations for this season. Sixth place (where we currently sit) would be huge if we maintained that come May, and would represent a great start for Koeman after the past two seasons under Martinez. Upper half of the table would be progress. 4th place and Champions League would be amazing, but we'd need a lot to fall in our favour for that to happen – and some form collapses from three or four of the new established top six (or seven if you want to include Leicester in that).

5) Unfortunately, at the moment so much of our goal threat revolves around Lukaku and Bolaise, and not much else. For the sake of the balance of the side, we're desperate for Mirallas, Barkley and Deulofeu to step up. Oh how I wish the Juan Mata rumours back in August were true.

Bob Parrington
239 Posted 23/10/2016 at 06:02:01
Colin (#41) and (#84). Maybe your question has been ignored because, as clearly demonstrated against Citeh, he can and did very well.

Now, to his right, I don't have the answer!

Brian Porter
240 Posted 23/10/2016 at 06:21:35
Like Craig (#238), I've stepped back and taken a few deep breaths before posting. In conclusion, my thoughts on yesterday's defeat are:

1. In general, we were good going forward but again we lacked a cutting edge in the final third. Lukaku again seemed to have one of those games where he's a yard too slow. On at least two occasions, he could and should have made contact with good crosses.

2. Phil Jagielka is not captain material and time also seems to be catching up on him. He's starting to look like a liability at the back and needs a rest. Let Funes Mori and Williams see if they can build a workable partnership at the back.

3. Koeman doesn't have a magic wand and is also beginning to look like he is finding things tougher than he thought at Everton. He also seems, at times, as intractable as his predecessor. Why keep using the same few subs? Lennon offers much more going forward than Cleverley but can't get even 20 minutes in place of misfiring Mirallas and Deulofeu.

I don't want to go on and on but will just close by saying we need to find a killer instinct, and fast. That's what the club are paying our new manager big bucks for. The honeymoon is well and truly over, Mr Koeman. Let's see some results. Four without a win just isn't good enough when you consider the opposition in three of those four games.

Darren Hind
241 Posted 23/10/2016 at 07:42:08
Chris Gould.

You were consumed by faux indignation and outrage when you were told you were talking bollocks after our last disappointment. "So rude" you cried... Now, after our latest disappointment, you are back here telling another poster that HE is talking "absolute bollocks".

You might want to give your standards (both sets) a once-over there, fella.

You ask "what did Koeman do wrong?" ... Let me have a stab at that one.

Koeman lost. From a manager's point of view, it doesn't get any wronger than that, but he didn't just lose. He lost to a manager who can only dream of having the sort of funds available to him in the summer. He lost to a manager whose team are inferior to his own in just about every position... and here's the thing – it's not the first time it's happened; in his few short weeks here, he as managed to lose to three managers who have fielded teams nowhere near as good as his own.

Now I know you feel you are the voice of calm and reason, but you are sounding disturbingly like a Martinez apologist. You are making a habit of coming on here berating posters for levelling justified criticism of the manager after defeats which could and should have been avoided.

Trust me when I tell you: Nobody will be swayed by you shouting their opinions down, because you "believe" Koeman will eventually get it right – you're judgement thus far hardly inspires confidence. They need to see evidence. Your whine about Koeman not having the players available will not wash when we are losing to managers who would kill for the players available to him.

Most people are happy to give Koeman time to compete with the big boys, but there are no circumstances where we should be readily accepting defeat to managers and players who would crawl over broken glass for a job at Everton.

Jay Woods
242 Posted 23/10/2016 at 07:45:19
I still haven't seen any footage of the game (dragged out shopping yesterday by the wife) but I stand by my initial comment last night, – that there is a fundamental weakness in the squad.

Perhaps nobody embodies that more than the captain, Jagielka, but it would be remiss of us to confine it to just one player. There seems, to my weary mind at least, an institutionalised inability to avoid ruinous lapses at the back for the whole 90 minutes, partnered (as others have pointed out) to a lack of unity and cohesion when we attack.

I know the knee-jerk is to turn again to the manager for answers, but surely Koeman knows and preaches that in the modern game teams must defend – and attack – as a unit. Personally, I don't think it's possible, notwithstanding top class coaching, if a spine of on-field steeliness and bloody-minded leadership is absent.

What this all means (apart from more frustration in coming weeks) is that the club must somehow find a way to procure new players who have demonstrated consistency and stamina. Not easy, not cheap, but if Moshiri is for real, it is the only way out of this malaise.

Alan J Thompson
243 Posted 23/10/2016 at 08:08:22
I have to admit that, late on in the game, I was asking if his name was Koeman or Konman... or if the changes he is demanding are so fundamental that this lot don't get it and can't implement it.

Stekelenburg had impressed me as having the basics of good keeping; knowing where the posts are. The first goal, he could have walked over and watched it roll out for a goalkick. And while this was going on, Coleman was stood there watching but far too slow reacting, a feature creeping into his game more and more.

Jagielka and Barry are obviously coming to the end of their careers and, unless there is a big turn-around, I would imagine this may be their last top-flight season. Barry's legs are gone – and please, don't let Jagielka anywhere near a free kick.

Williams had a very good game. Oviedo must be told that, when he gets the ball deep in the opposition's half, he can take his man on or cross the ball. The number of times Barkley had to go over and take the ball from him.... Gana's confidence seems on the wane and hopefully, it is only a short term thing.

In the main, Bolasie had a good game but what was he doing for their second goal, stretching exercises?

Lukaku scores some wonderful goals but his movement off the ball, his timing in jumping, and his heading ability are woeful and his ability as a sniffer in the box always seem a yard-and-a-half short. He and Mirallas don't seem to know where each other ever are, never mind work as a team. Mirallas should really have put us in front in the first few minutes.

I thought Deulofeu did alright when he came on but his game seems to have changed so much since his first season with us and I don't understand bringing on a winger to get the ball into the box but take off one of your strikers.

As for our goal, it just about summed our game up, we don't really understand what each other intend doing. It seems we may have been practising some variations on corners but a few must have left training early that day. A variation is most effective when the opposition expect you to make your usual effort.

And as for that clown of a referee! He booked two of our players for not committing a foul, gave a foul against Williams after he had cleared the ball and was clattered by a late-arriving Burnley player and, despite the constant targeting of our players ankles, failed to send off the worst culprit who scored the winning goal.

Sorry but I'm off to lie down again.

Andrew Clare
244 Posted 23/10/2016 at 08:40:25
I am confident that Ron will get it right but it may take 2 or 3 transfer windows. Koeman's methods will take time to work and the players are still learning them. He had the same problems with Southampton and they had some awful winless runs but look at the end result there – Europe.

Too many of our players are 'nearly' men. Very skillful and gifted but lacking in the consistency required to be top level players. There isn't any creativity in the team and the creativity is what sets winners apart from the also-rans.

Today, we were the better team but we were unlucky.

Anthony Hughes
245 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:08:29
Valencia on loan was a joke. None of the teams we're supposedly trying to compete with go around loaning strikers off other Premier League clubs. A distinctly average transfer window is coming home to roost.
Paul Tran
246 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:12:25
It's a results business and right now, he isn't getting them. I thought we were unlucky yesterday. It's the kind of result I'd shrug off if we were on a good run.

We're on a poor run and need to get that winning habit back from next game. While Koeman could do with better players, I think he can do better with what he's got.

Richard Dodd
247 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:13:28
I can't really see why we should expect players who were crap for the last two seasons to suddenly become superstars under the management of Ronald Koeman. Yes, they may be made fitter, prefer his tactics but, for all that marginal improvement, too many of them are old or average.

Trouble is, leaving aside penalty saves, only Gana is an improvement on what we had and the manager's preference for the 'old brigade' as subs over the likes of Davies and Dowell shows him to be anything but a keen developer of young talent.

Already we are beginning to hear pleas for half-a-dozen windows to 'get it right' so it looks like our dreams of good days in store will have to be put firmly back on ice. No magic there, then!

I shall be 40 next year and, apart from a hazy schoolboy memory long before I was allowed to attend matches, our league achievements have been decidedly average all my life. Like supporting Stoke, really.

What's the betting I shall be writing of the same disappointment as I approach my 80th year? Very short odds, I guess!

Lee Gray
248 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:14:17
Same players, different manager... same shite.

Judge Ronald next October with a few transfer windows behind him.

Kim Vivian
249 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:29:04
Alan (#195). Great band. Which track was it?
Paul Conway
250 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:29:53
Anthony Dwyer (#223),

Have a beer! I totally agree!

Ian Hollingworth
251 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:40:43
Richard (#247) spot on. The joys of being an Evertonian.

We need to set our own expectation levels to make it easier on ourselves. Try these:

1. We are not competing for the top 4;

2. We will not win a trophy;

3. Our players are not as good as we would hope for;

4. Moshiri is not the billionaire owner we hoped for.

Keep repeating them over and over until they stick. Maybe if we accept them we will enjoy the games more.

Please note: I want and expect us to be the opposite of the above 4 but, with the current custodians of the club, it is not changing anytime soon.

Everton – everything is always the same.

Eddie Dunn
252 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:43:22
Watched the game on a stream yesterday, and just watched the MotD footage. We were punished for losing possession, for sloppy play. Players made mistakes when not even under pressure. Jags gave a free-kick straight to them.

For their first goal, Williams was caught on the halfway line, and Stekelenburg went down too early for a save he didn't need to make... and for the second goal, Cleverley and Coleman stood like statues as the ball bounced off the bar, and Arfield waltzed through to hit the winner. Simple, basic errors from seasoned pros.

I have defended Cleverley on many occasions but I have seen enough now. Coleman has plenty of invention on offence, but has always been suspect in defence. Lots for Koeman to work on.

Bobby Thomas
253 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:46:28
To those saying we are static, slow in possession and there's no combination play... well, there's no ball-playing attacking midfielders. There's Ross Barkley and that's it. Apparently he'd started 55 league games on the spin before Man City, which is ridiculous.

Mirallas and Deulofeu are one performance in three players. And I actually don't think we've signed any different in Bolasie. These players are wide lads whose job it is to create and go at people. Some things come off; some don't. What you're not going to get from them is two-touch combination play that's going to break teams down and be the link to midfield & Lukaku.

Arteta, Pienaar and Ossie all not replaced. All combination-play attacking midfielders. None replaced. I feel like I've been saying this for years now.

The previous manager has left a midfield that is unbalanced, has no options, and is the biggest problem we face. We need 2 mids in that can get on it, link the play, and control the tempo. It would also be handy if one of these had the ability to get 10 a season and the legs to get alongside and beyond Lukaku as he is frequently isolated. There's no goals in the side.

Until then, we are going to have to be a hard-working, organised and a "grinding out results" type outfit, unless one of our bi-polar wide men has a good day.

We have 8th written all over us.

Les Martin
254 Posted 23/10/2016 at 09:58:31
We had the better talent and team but did not concentrate for 90+ minutes and got mugged. Ronald and the team will learn. Still a long way to go and we will come on from this.

Fair play to Burnley for sticking at it; also, they have a top bloke in charge in Sean Dyche.

Darren Hind
255 Posted 23/10/2016 at 10:01:05

Just found out the shite won last night too, another shit weekend.

Thank fuck for Noel Fehily...

David McKee
256 Posted 23/10/2016 at 10:19:45
Calm down, Calm down lads! We weren't that bad. Heaton is a class keeper. Rom is so arrogant that chasing and harrying is too good for him; he seems to think "Just give me the ball in the right area and I will score" is enough for 90 minutes.

He's not as good as he believes or his arl fella is telling him he is. Top players make things happen and he doesn't so I'll leave it there.

Other than that, Burnley pulled our pants down and Dyche shows how a lesser talented team can beat a better talented team. Let them have possession and work hard to the final whistle.
Colin Williams
257 Posted 23/10/2016 at 10:42:06
Top coaches make a difference straight away! Any decent coach can make us better at defensive situations; the real coaches develop offensive options and open players' thinking options and create a better player quickly!

The gaffer may have been a top player but I doubt he has the skills to become the gaffer that we need without spending lots of cash. We need a proper coach who knows how to develop what we already have!

That's what top coaches do! The gaffer is struggling at this key point.
Ray Robinson
258 Posted 23/10/2016 at 10:59:13
Kim (#240), it was "Wake Up" from the album "Funeral" – absolutely brilliant track for a home team to walk out to. Have thought this for ages. Having to sit in the home end and endure that travesty yesterday, it was the only bright spot of the afternoon, apart from Bolasie's goal.
Mike Gwyer
259 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:07:52
The joys of being an Evertonian:

I remember with much happiness the mid-80s and always, without fail, go for a fucking long walk when our loveable Reds pop round.

For me, there was just too much that was a tad shite to discuss yesterday's game but these four points stick with me: Deulofeu is without doubt totally fucking shite and totally fucking lazy; Jags is being targeted more and more by the opposition front players, Do they see or know something that Koeman needs to amend? Finally Lukaku, I totally rate him as a top player but why oh why will he not pass the ball when better options are available to him?

Oh yeah, Cleverley... If I met him, I would shake his hand hoping that all the luck he has in life comes to me. How the fuck did he become a Premier League footballer??

Unfortunately a long walk is looming as my sister is coming round for dinner, with a red twat husband!!!

Steve Alderson
260 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:11:13
What's worrying me the most isn't the poor performances or results, it's the nagging feeling that Koeman doesn't actually know why Everton are mediocre and what he's going to do about it.

I know it's still early days but there are no real signs of improvement overall, just a couple of decent additions in Williams and Gueye.

Kim Vivian
261 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:14:28
Magic, Ray – best Arcade album that. My stream only went live after the teams were out so missed that.

If you Indie guys are into that, anyone else like CYHSY (if you know what I'm on about - you are!). I am of mature years and grew up with punk (Deaf School at Mr Digby's circa '75 anyone?) but none of my contemporaries seem to have connected with the American/Canadian Indie scene.

This topic beats berating over another frustrating afternoon. However, all we have to do is start scoring goals. 3 in a month against those teams? I ask you...

Ian McDowell
262 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:24:04
Just watched the highlights again on TV. Looking at the winning goal, again, it's another high ball into the box that we don't deal with. If we win the first ball then there is no issue as it will be cleared. We don't win the first ball enough in defence.
Brian Harrison
263 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:28:36
I don't think the performance was too bad. Last week, we got a bit of luck; this week, Burnley got it. Having given them a soft goal, we get level and were in total control so to not even come away with a draw was very disappointing. But for me, the problem is that we lack being clinical in and around the box; this was prevalent under Martinez and is still the case today.

I also think that we have too many players who lack the ability to put the ball in the net. Deulofeu, Mirallas, Cleverley, Gana, Barry, McCarthy, and Lennon have poor records in goals per game. Also Barkley and Kone and Valencia are not much better. So the question is: Who will score on a regular basis if Lukaku doesn't?

I don't blame Koeman for this as these were the players who he inherited and it will take a couple of transfer windows to turn this around.

Alan McMillan
264 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:37:41
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...
Kim Vivian
265 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:55:16
Seems to sum us up, Alan. Maybe we should be listening to Disney – "If you can dream it, you can achieve it".
Dave Williams
266 Posted 23/10/2016 at 11:57:11
I am pretty sure from the expression on Ron's face after the game that he knows exactly what our problems are but also that there is no immediate fix. I have been bewildered at his persistence in playing or using Cleverley, Valencia etc rather than trying youth but I can only think he has been testing out the fringe players to see if they can offer anything or be moved on at the next window.

Look back at our good teams of the past and in particular the wide players. Steven and Sheedy were proper midfield players operating from wide positions, likewise Pienaar plus Arteta and Osman who were both used as wide men at times. Those teams had a true midfield four whereas we currently play with a midfield two plus two wingers who try to beat a man but don't create as part of the team. Add in Ross as the attacking midfielder who is just not playing well, regardless of whether or not he will ever really make it in that position, and I can see why we don't create enough clear chances.

Basically there is no-one in the team who can play that role. I can't remember when the two wingers last played well in the same match and, given the poor form of Ross, this means we are playing every game with a maximum of 9 men performing – not forgetting that Geri, Kev and Ross are not exactly great at pressing either.

Ron is advocating a pressing style but was bequeathed a group of players who had been schooled in a game of possession with zero movement off the ball for the last 3 years. This means that a lot of those players will be unsuited to a pressing game, be unable to adapt, or too old to physically do it.

In our first choice team, we have four players over 30 (excluding the goalie) plus two out-and-out wingers and a big heavily built striker – seven players out of ten unsuited to the style required by the manager. For this reason, I am advocating gritting my teeth and waiting for January or preferably giving youth a chance in the meantime.

Patrick is right in what he says above and as for the question of are there funds available or not, we will soon see. Ron and Walsh arrived a bit late for the last window and clearly we messed up a bit but they have had plenty of time this time to get their targets in place. I have no doubt that there are funds available but only time can prove that.

The main issue now is confidence – this group of players dropped their heads in each of the last two seasons and must not be allowed to go that way again. Next week's game is very important now!

Alan Bodell
267 Posted 23/10/2016 at 12:09:45
Another Sunday with a massive hangover and no points, used to it being a Blue... and Kim/Ray, yesterday at Burnley there was no 'Ocean Of Noise' – best track from AF.

Apologies to all from my sore head for going off topic.

Geoff Evans
268 Posted 23/10/2016 at 12:24:51
Same old, same old: excuses, excuses – it's not rocket science. Pack a team with, at best, average players and what do you get...
Paul Conway
269 Posted 23/10/2016 at 12:38:21
Martinez is laughing in his cornflakes this morning. Cos one thing is sure... He fucked up! But, he wasn't the only one.

A lot of Evertonians aligned to the fact that he defootballised our ' talented ' players'. I am not supporting Martinez as he messed up big. But, he didn't play football... The no-marks did.

Yes, he gave the instructions on strategy. But any decent player should be able to adapt to any formation or strategy. You either have it, or you have not.

Absolutely no blame should be apportioned to Ronald Koeman; he saw this. He has tried changes with the same deadwood until he can find a right formula. But, I think he is going to throw his hat in!

Rob Halligan
270 Posted 23/10/2016 at 13:08:48
Everyone keeps going on about waiting for the January transfer window. I say forget it. There are never any big transfers in January, by Everton or anyone else, unless anyone can correct me on that one?

Unfortunately the time to address this squad will be next summer.

Tony Abrahams
271 Posted 23/10/2016 at 13:27:37
You can try and change most things in a footballer but you will never be able to give him character, which his possibly why Koeman was so red in the face.

I watched it on a poor stream, and it might not have given me a true reflection but I thought Lukaku started getting hold of the ball in the second half yesterday. When he did, we had no-one running past him, breaking their neck to try and get into the opposition box.

Bravery comes in many forms on a football pitch and I personally think it's something we really lack on most fronts.

Tahir Abdullah
272 Posted 23/10/2016 at 13:30:37
Suarez, Sturridge, Arteta, Austin, Vidic, Mascherano... never any big transfers in January? Sturridge could be an interesting one to take a punt on, btw.
Dan Davies
273 Posted 23/10/2016 at 13:50:20
It would be nice to have at least one player brought in for the New Year. Someone preferably an attacking goalscorer who can be a leader up front who the other players look to.

Who that is, I'm not sure but that ain't my job! Someone who can lift the other players to up their game, someone to tie things together in attack and be a goal threat.

I like both Mirallas and Deulofeu but are they really doing the business at the moment? Barkley? I would like to see a signing that inspires these players to put teams like Burnley to the sword!

Take Lukaku out the equation and we are looking toothless in attack. Why not give Lennon a chance to see if he can add something to the attack?

Rob Halligan
274 Posted 23/10/2016 at 14:02:57
Oh aye, yeah. Like the RS would sell us Sturridge. Not saying he's a bad player or anything but never in a million years would the shite sell him to us.
Richard Dodd
275 Posted 23/10/2016 at 15:51:53
Les Martin @254 and others; you make it sound as though we might have been better off with Dyche in charge. He's used to improving crap players... well, sometimes, anyway!
Michael Kenrick
276 Posted 23/10/2016 at 16:18:07
Ernie (#238),

"In football, you have to wait for the next window."

What utter tosh. Football is played every week, not twice a year. Once the bloody window closes, it's down to business – the team, and especially the manager, have to perform, week-in and week-out.

This cry-arsing that we don't have the right players and we have to wait for the next window... and the next window... and the next window – is a complete abrogation of responsibility all round.

Sadly, that's what we saw on the field yesterday... suggesting that it may indeed underlie Koeman's philosophy in the frustration he has dealing with the players he has inherited. If it really is coming from him, and not just an invention of fans sucked into this 'jam tomorrow' nonsense, then that would be a totally unacceptable attitude coming from the Everton manager.

Nicholas Ryan
277 Posted 23/10/2016 at 16:30:12
I was going to write: 'If you are challenging seriously for anything, you have to beat Bournemouth and Burnley'; but it's even simpler than that.

'If you are challenging seriously for anything, you have to NOT LOSE to Bournemouth and Burnley.'

Also, as I've said on another thread – as anyone else noticed the painful irony, that the only employee of Everton FC currently scoring regular goals is Oumar Niasse?!

Brent Stephens
278 Posted 23/10/2016 at 16:39:05
Not in the Prem, he isn't, Nicholas.
Andy Crooks
279 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:01:58
If Arteta was in our team now, I believe we would be a top side.
Don Alexander
280 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:12:43
Michael Kenrick's point at #277 speaks for the feelings of many but I just think it's way too easy to point a finger at (with full respect for the use of the phrase) "our current manager".

Rumours of protest to BBS by the players late last season were welcome to me but the current set-up is different. What's not different, yet, is the innate lack of effort that seems to be in the core of far too many of the squad. I just don't think they deserve any more licence for failing to consistently do what any standard pro footballer must usually do as a minimum; instant control of the received ball and then pass accurately to one of two or three team-mates who've taken positions to threaten the opposition.

It takes effort, determination, and sometimes courage to do it well for the entire match on a consistent basis but, if they'd just look like they gave a shit during a match rather than when chatting to the media, I for one would be happier. Let's see a bit of anger on the pitch, to a sloppy static petulant forward (or two) of our own if necessary.

David Barks
281 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:18:45
I'm getting so sick of people speaking out of both sides their mouth, at one time saying it's going to require multiple windows for him to get his type of players in, so we need to accept poor performances and not expect to finish high in the table (with 9th-10th being often cited). Then making the excuse that the previous window was bad because we can't attract the top players because of where we finished in the league the past two seasons.

Totally unacceptable, we have decent players. It's up to the manager to make them play as a team and in a way that gets results. Lukaku is scoring goals, but is again getting starved of service. Our attacking play is not as slow and methodical as last season, but is now much more on the individual with a lot less passing.

It seems that all the focus of the manager currently is on calling out Ross Barkley and continuously speaking about how Niasse will never play for him – no matter how hard he works or how well he is playing.

What is the point of the Under-23s then? Should it not be meant to give those players outside the current squad the platform to prove why they should be considered? If that's not the point, then why in the hell are we spending any money and time on that? And what should those other players be thinking in the Under-23s that, no matter how well they do, if they score hat-tricks week-in and week-out, it means absolutely nothing for their prospects of getting a call-up to the main squad.

I'm sorry, this notion that Koeman needs 2 years to be judged is pathetic. Nobody is giving Mourinho two years at Man Utd or Conte two years at Chelsea, or Klopp at Liverpool. They come in and there are expectations. Those clubs and their supporters demand results.

The biggest problem we have is we have no stated goal before the season. What is the club's goal at the start, where are we expected to finish, and thus what is the KPI of the manager? This lack of focus and ambition is what allows so many supporters to say we shouldn't expect much better than a top-half finish. That's pathetic, the hopes of a Stoke or Crystal Palace supporter. That is in no way good enough for Everton.

If Klopp would have come into this season talking about needing 18 months to turn around the team and that being around 7th in the table is about right, he'd be driven out of town by an angry mob.

It's shocking to me that our expectations have actually gone down since Moyes left. He was battered for not getting us into the top 4. Now we're arguing that this team, largely the same one that finished 5th a couple of seasons ago with a very high points total, is a major hindrance to the new manager and we need to let him get by for two years and not question poor results.

To hell with that.

Stephen Brown
282 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:24:53
Let's be honest, we were unlucky yesterday despite having obvious limitations in the team particularly a lack of guile in final 3rd.

Something I believe is having such a negative impact at the club is the lack of commitment coming from the top down. I know it's rife in current money-obsessed football but we have Koeman saying he may give us 3 years!

Lukaku may be kind enough to give us another year, McCarthy loses his place for first time ever – he's off! Funes Mori, who has never set the world alight – the same! It just doesn't feel right! I don't get the feeling many of them really care!

There's a quote in the Bullens Stand from Kevin Ratcliffe saying defeats for other clubs didn't hurt! There's lots of our players like this IMO.

Barry Williams
283 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:35:17
We looked like what we are, a team in transition!
Kim Vivian
284 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:46:26
How were we unlucky, Stephen? In the game I watched, I saw nothing attributable to bad luck. I did see a team unable to score, however.

Perhaps our strikers should have remembered to put their teeth in when they woke up.

Tony Hill
285 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:53:32
If you have an ineffectual captain then you are already on the back foot. In addition, and crucially, we are short – obviously so – of a clever midfielder and another quality forward. We have failed to address that, which is why people look to the next window.

I would try Davies, and maybe Dowell, but there are no other youngsters who will make a serious difference at the moment. I agree, we need courage and resolve, but we also need better players in vital areas.

David Barks
286 Posted 23/10/2016 at 17:55:51

Seriously? We need better players in order to not lose to Burnley? That's ridiculous.

Tony Hill
287 Posted 23/10/2016 at 18:07:25
No, David, but we do in order to achieve the levels you and I both demand.
David Barks
288 Posted 23/10/2016 at 18:16:30
These are the same players Koeman was using at the start of the season leading to his praises being sung on these pages. Now we can't get a win and draws are turning to defeats, and it's these miserable players?
Peter Gorman
289 Posted 23/10/2016 at 18:18:02
Who has been singing anyone's praises for the last few seasons, David?
David Barks
290 Posted 23/10/2016 at 18:22:00
Peter, did you not visit this site for the first 6 weeks of the season?
Dave Abrahams
291 Posted 23/10/2016 at 18:29:15
David (289) we are having trouble in the left back position, I don't mind Oviedo but until he was injured, Baines was having a very good season in my opinion, It might be too simple an explanation for the poor run since he was injured but he is an excellent link man as well as a good defender who reads the game better than most and he is good going forward as well. We will see as the season progresses if Koeman gets the team going again, it's disappointing and frustrating but I am not too depressed yet.
Peter Gorman
292 Posted 23/10/2016 at 18:39:24
It appears I didn't David, I thought all the 'best squad since the 80s' gibberish died a few seasons ago.

For where I stand/sit/crawl/curl up in the foetal position, there are possibly only 3 players in the whole squad with a 'winner's mentality' and one of them is on loan at West Brom.

John Daley
293 Posted 23/10/2016 at 19:02:29
"The biggest problem we have is we have no stated goal before the season. What is the club's goal at the start, where are we expected to finish, and thus what is the KPI of the manager?"

Koeman came out and stated a couple of times early doors that the ambition for this season should be to secure European football, but dismissed talk of a Champions League place as "unrealistic". How much more specific do you want him to be?

Even if he hadn't stated where he would like to see Everton finish, how would that represent our "biggest problem"? Like a team can live with a lack of goals throughout the side, creation starvation or a leaky defence, as long as the manager just lets them know at the outset what sort of finishing position he's looking at for the end of the season?

What difference would such words make to anything we see playing out on the pitch? Like a player is magically going to (a) give loads more if a manager sets a higher target for the season ahead, or (b) slack off something rotten instead if the same manager downplays things like Dr Evil demanding a "One Meeelion Dollars" ransom to refrain from destroying the entire world?

If 'success' in football is that simple, and 'ambition' is measured by the guy at the top blowing bold (but not very likely to be backed up) claims out of his arse, why doesn't every manager just start each season screaming "We're going to take the fucking lot, I'm telling you'se right now. Get on it or regret it"?

Furthermore, how does the level of displeasure voiced by fans over a bad result, on a fucking website, have any influence on performances and results? You saying 'Ooooh, I'm so livid!', even if it were to have a Spartacus like effect and lead to streams of other people posting 'Ooooh, I'm livid as well lad!', isn't going to light a fire under the teams arse, or lead to higher standards being adopted. What do you actually think it will achieve at the end of the day?

Fair enough if that's your thing, but don't try and make out those who aren't eager to join in, or are prepared to wait a while longer before rushing to judgement, are in some way culpable for fucking things up and causing poor results to become common place.

As for Klopp and what he might say? Probably something like "What a lovely day for an exorcism", "That's far too vulgar a display of power. Karras", or "Your mother sucks cocks in hell"? Who cares? He and the rest of Lucifer's lot have got jack shit to do with Koeman, Everton's current form or the Burnley result, so why keep bringing him/them into it?

Mick Davies
294 Posted 23/10/2016 at 19:28:55
I'm sick of hearing about 'luck'. If we need luck to win football matches, we are in trouble.

Only 2 years ago, Everton were playing the best football in decades, finishing in our highest position and everyone saying we had the best squad of players since the '80s. Well we still have those same players (without Naismith and Osman – who was way past his best – and Stones, not missed) along with Koeman's additions.

The previous manager was blamed for the demise due to his coaching methods and the first few games this season looked like Koeman had stamped his own routine, and the team seemed to be responding. Well if we look at the sluggishness, the negativity and the lack of invention in recent games, it seems to me that we've reverted to type.

Like Martinez, Koeman brought in a striker who he won't use, and like Martinez, he keeps faith with out-of-form and declining players while ignoring other, younger options. He also makes substitutions that baffle us fans, and he is now on the same slide in terms of results that had us screaming for Martinez to go.

Now obviously he needs time as others are saying on here, but surely he's had time to see that Jagielka is making too many gaffs, is not very good in the air and never a captain? Surely he can see that Barkley is not the intelligent, creative midfielder that every decent team needs to function? And I can't believe he hasn't noticed that Bolasie is more creative/effective on the left, where he is only allowed to operate after the 80th minute?

I know I'll be slated for assuming this but, with the addition of Williams, Stekelenburg, Gueye and Bolasie to an already decent squad, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect better against a depleted Burnley, Bournemouth and championship Norwich?

Max Murphy
295 Posted 23/10/2016 at 19:55:39
Chris (#128). No offence taken mate, but could you tell me what brand of LSD you´re on?
Chris Gould
296 Posted 23/10/2016 at 20:19:35
Max, I got angry, I shouted and swore and acted like a big child. I then went outside and mowed the lawn. Life goes on.

It's hard to believe when emotions are running high, but these defeats are bumps in the road that will be long forgotten when this new era truly kicks off.

Have a bit of patience. It will pay off, I'm sure of it.

Peter Jansson
297 Posted 23/10/2016 at 20:43:57
Well you can say what you want but I want more WINNING MENTALITY on the field.

I mean, get fucking angry when things do not go as you want, and put then in even more effort. Run more and do harder tackles or whatever you need to improve.

Stop these prima donna salutations after a goal. Get som fucking angry screaming to get some energy out on the field.

I mean I play indoors football with my friends once a week, and it seems that I get more angry when I loose meaningless football matches on Wednesdays than our professional players get when they loose real games.

That is what is lacking with this squad, and by the way football players in general I think. Put some fucking balls, effort and energy out there!! Come on for fuck's sake!!

Ernie Baywood
298 Posted 23/10/2016 at 21:16:16
Michael Kenrick 277... It probably does seem like "utter tosh" if you take that line out of context as you did.

My point was that Koeman can improve the team, but that there's a limit to what he is likely to be able to achieve with this current squad. Real improvement, i.e. to being title challengers, would need investment in the team. And to test the club's intent, we will need to wait for a transfer window.

David Barks
299 Posted 23/10/2016 at 21:24:42

Fantastic. Why don't you ask the club when that might be and then you can let the rest of us know when it's fair for us to expect to beat the likes of Burnley and Palace, and we can retire the excuse of needing another transfer window. Cheers.

Mark Wilson
300 Posted 23/10/2016 at 21:45:55
Michael #277 are you saying here that there's a feeling that Koeman has arrived, thinks the squad is rubbish and wasn't able to sort that in the summer window and has now spat his dummy out and just isn't really working with the players as we would expect ? I honestly can't quite get under the skin of your comments so I've likely got it wrong but it felt this way tbh.

To my mind, even after just nine games in, there's a sense that fans are not actually expecting miracles, but something about the three losses so far, and a couple of our draws, has them very concerned. I've questioned Koeman's approach, gently, and I find some of the stuff here about giving him three years etc etc to be utter nonsense. He's not about to give us three years if Barca or someone else he likes come calling, and this club can never repeat the mistakes made by allowing Martinez that dire destructive last 18mths.

So, daft tho it sounds, there's pressure already. He's one of the best paid managers in the game. He arrived with a great rep. He started out with lots of straight talking yet he seems to have well, withdrawn a bit ? I can't put my finger on it but frustration at losses aside, I just think something's not quite right ? But I'm hoping to add a "yet" to that uncertain feeling.

As for transfer windows .they are an integral part of the game aren't they ? Get it right and a whole season can be made, or changed. Get it wrong like the summer and some existing shortcomings might fail to be addressed with unsurprising consequences. Talking about putting it right in the next window, what's so wrong about that ?

Michael your post will have got a few of us thinking I suspect. For me now it's about reduced expectation, and early disappointment that this guy can't somehow instantly be a lot, lot, better than the disaster that was Martinez. Totally unreasonable isn't it. But I'm an Evertonian and I'm fed up waiting. Koeman has 18 months to cheer me up.

Alan McGuffog
301 Posted 23/10/2016 at 21:51:21
Barry (#283). We are indeed transitioning... into the biggest bunch of tarts I have seen in a long while!
John Pierce
302 Posted 23/10/2016 at 22:11:05
David Barks, on fire my man. I've repeatedly said that Koeman should be judged in the same terms he judges others.

He is not here for the long haul, we are a stepping stone to bigger things, therefore he has to get it right now not in a window or two.

Koeman made clear judgements about players and let them go or told them to go find a club.

Whilst I'm not calling for his head, we are paying him very hansomely to get results now. If you want to buy the players we talk about on these pages defeats like yesterday make that possibility less likely and rightly he is accountable and should take the stick for it.

The most worrying thing is he hasn't or won't use any players outside the 14/15 he's used, that stinks of a stubborn nature which we all thought we got rid of when BBS left.

We have a massive December so he better pick up points between now and then or it is 'rinse and repeat for this season.

Kim Vivian
303 Posted 23/10/2016 at 22:26:06
Peter Jansson - But are you taking £20-£30 odd grand home every week after losing on your Wednesdays? Does wonders for the anger management I'm told!
Steavey Buckley
304 Posted 23/10/2016 at 22:26:54
Koeman has not realised that the same players that failed last season under Martinez are failing under him as well. And I don't believe the tactics are any better under Koeman than they were under Martinez. At least Everton under Martinez were able to beat Burnley 3:1 away and looked very comfortable doing it.

In only one game this season, and that was in the second half against Sunderland, did Everton look like a team that could really threaten the opposition, and that was when Koeman replaced Barkley with Deulofeu in the second half. And all of a sudden Everton attacked with pace down the wings and in the middle, that caught the opposition off guard. Play like that again, and Everton should have beaten Burnley easily yesterday.

Chris Gould
305 Posted 23/10/2016 at 22:32:32
Darren Hind (#241):

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. There are a number of people who share my opinion that many on here go way over the top with their negativity every time we lose. Why don't you take it up with them?

I have previously said you're rude, but so have many others. It's because you often are. Regardless of this, I do agree that I shouldn't have told Max that what he said was utter bollocks. I have since tried to explain my point to Max. The negativity was getting beyond ridiculous and it can border on hysterical. Childish even.

Week after week teams in the premier league are drawing or losing to teams they would expect to beat. It's the beauty of this league. The unpredictability. Yes, it's frustrating, but it is acceptable. To say it isn't is doing a disservice to Burnley. Is it unacceptable to Man Utd to lose away to us? They are a bigger club and pay millions more on their players.

Of course it's not. In the Premier League anyone can beat anyone. I stand by what I said, I don't think Koeman did much wrong.

Patrick Murphy
306 Posted 23/10/2016 at 22:41:00
21 players have appeared in the Everton team at least once this season and we've only played nine league games. Only Jags and Stek have played every minute of every Premier League game, 5 players, Jags, Stek, Barry, Gueye and Mirallas have appeared in every league game

Perhaps those players who can feel a touch left-out could be Lennon, Kone, Davies and Valencia who have been given less than 45 minutes in the league this season. I don't see any of those four players making a significant difference to Everton's results, although Lennon, Davies and perhaps Holgate may still have time to prove their worth in the coming months.

McCarthy too could count himself unfortunate to be overlooked but it looks like he has a problem convincing Koeman that he has a role in the team, but he could step in if Barry is injured or suspended.

In short there not that many options available so it would seem natural to try and assemble the best 14 or 15 players in the squad and try and get those to gel as a team. It's quite obvious why Koeman is relying on the same people most weeks, those underneath the first team don't look as if they can cut the mustard and even if they could would they vastly increase Everton's chances of winning more points?

Tom Bowers
307 Posted 23/10/2016 at 23:11:40
We know that the new gaffer needs time; whilst he hasn't exactly set the world alight with the squad so far, there are some signs that he will turn things around.

Against Man City he had a plan which frustrated them and with great goalkeeping there was a big chance up to the 72nd minute Everton could grab 3 points. Yesterday they dominated and made one crucial mistake at a very bad time (just before the half) and gave Burnley an undeserved lead. Fighting back in the second half it looked like they would get at least the point they deserved only to be robbed at the death.

Everton are still in 6th. spot despite this and haven't been on any kind of good run yet like some other teams but they are still in contention with a long way to go in the season. We have to be philosophical at least for the time being that things will improve especially as some players out injured will be coming back to strengthen the squad.

Yes, it's easy to start lambasting the manager and certain players because we long suffering Evertonians have been in the doldrums for many years expecting each new season and new manager to be a turning point, but we know it won't happen overnight.

Zahir Jaffer
308 Posted 23/10/2016 at 23:27:09
It's pretty easy to point out what's wrong:

Lack of a caentral attacking midfielder
Lack of passion/energy
Lack of creativity
Lack of leadership
Lack of chemistry
Lack of a goal threat

Each player has what the other doesn't. To be the best, all, or most of those boxes need to be ticked.

Cleverley is creative but isn't energetic, nor is he a goal threat.

Barkley is a goal threat but can never win the ball back (aerially or otherwise) and by the looks of it so far, can't orchestrate a game.

Besic is passionate and energetic.

Barry is creative a leader, plays for the team and that's why he always starts.

Too few games to judge Gana but he's a solid central defensive midfielder and has some of the best stats in the league.

Gibson's too unreliable due to injury.

Deulofeu has proven his creativity but lacks the pressing game. Also not really a goal threat.

Mirallas is more of a goal threat than creative, he just doesn't turn up every week.

Bolasie is creative energetic proving to be a goal threat and thinks he can run the show himself at times.

My solution which no-one else has bothered to do is play a 5-3-2. We all agree, or most of us, that Bolasie plays better on the left; since he likes running the show, he can have the left flank all to himself.

Jagielka, Funes Mori and Williams as back three. We'll be better in attacking and defending from corners and set pieces with Funes Mori.

Right wing back is a given. Coleman. Not much of a choice there. He'll need to be extra cautious going up against Payet next week.

Midfield: Barry, Barkley & Gana. Because who else are we gonna play?

Attack: This is where the fun starts. Lukaku and Mirallas or Deulofeu up front.

I've noticed Lukaku always gets trapped with too many defenders pressurising him with his back to goal. If there was a player making a run ahead of him, he would have more space to work with. If they still press him he passes to Barry, Barkley or Gana who plays in the oncomng Mirallas or Deulofeu. In this formation we will also have an extra body in the box instead of just aiming for Lukaku.

While pressing from the front should become easier when done right with 2 upfront, it won't work unless we're pressing as a team. Barkley's movement off the ball will become more important than him with it.

Next two games are against teams below us and these points are up for grabs. To accommodate for our Central attacking midfielder, this formation will bring the best out of these players at our disposal. Our 4-4-1-1 and 4-3-3 aren't threatening enough.

Yes, I'm proud that we've started defending better but we're still conceding a goal a game. Throw on McCarthy for Barkley, and Oviedo for Bolasie when we're up or to close the game. Teams will definitely have a tougher time against us as long we're competent enough.

Chris Gould
309 Posted 23/10/2016 at 23:27:12
Darren, one other thing:

Saying that I'm starting to sound disturbingly like a Martinez apologist because I don't agree with some of the criticism of Koeman... is one of the most comical and nonsensical remarks of yours that I've ever read. And I've read many.

Comparing someone who defends a manager who has only had 9 league games in charge (and is currently 6th) to someone who defended Martinez... is beyond ludicrous.

Damian Wilde
310 Posted 23/10/2016 at 23:41:02
A lot of people are saying 'not Ron's fault, players are crap'. I think it's a bit of both.

Yes, our squad is poor (Moshiri's fault?? Everyone says it's Kenwright's, but he isn't the majority shareholder, so how about some flack for Moshiri?), but Koeman messed up badly at Norwich and lost us our momentum. Plus he regularly plays crap like Barkley and his subs have not exactly been inspiring.

Bit of both for me. We look like a side that'll finish 10th/11th and get to the 5th Round/Quarter-Final of the FA Cup.

Where are the players, Moshiri? Disgrace we got Valencia on-loan, the lack of required players (and the Norwich line-up) are the worst crimes here. A joke.

Peter Barry
311 Posted 24/10/2016 at 00:11:29
Well, well, well, It seems I was right and the visibly failing Man City are still Visibly Failing.
David Barks
312 Posted 24/10/2016 at 01:02:30
Chris Gould,

You talk about other clubs drawing against teams they should beat, and you're correct. But what you fail to point out is that the supporters of those clubs don't just sit back and accept it as normal business, saying they'll look to 2-3 years to see how the club is. That's the type of nonsense that is being spouted on here by some, after another very poor performance and result.

Arsenal, Spurs and Man City had poor results, with Man Utd having a very poor result. But those supporters are angry about it, not saying another 18 months are required before judgements can be made. And the press picks up on that and goes with that narrative. But here, apparently a significant number of our supporters aren't really that bothered. It took planes flying over Goodison last year multiple times before the press really started to talk about Everton underperforming and the supporters wanting change.

We're like the mid-table version of Arsenal at this point, when Mourinho famously pointed out how Wenger doesn't win anything while he has to win championships. Arsenal's Board just accepts top 4, sort of like our Board and sadly a larger number of supporters just want top half of the table. Anything else is a bonus, it seems.

Mick Davies
313 Posted 24/10/2016 at 01:28:14
Koeman was quick to judge McGeady and Niasse, who haven't really been given a chance under his management, but how does he not see Jagielka and Barkley in a similar light? If you're not good enough for Everton, like Geads and Niasse, then out you go... unless you're an established team member.

What have Tom Davies, Aaron Lennon and Ramiro Funes Mori done wrong to be overlooked? Surely they can't be as bad as the players we're seeing in their positions every week?

If it wasn't for our goalkeeper, and a few lucky breaks, we'd probably be back down in familiar territory, yet we haven't played Chelsea, Liverpool or Southampton yet. It's not that I'm expecting miracles, it's just this feeling of déjà vu that's worrying me...

Damian Wilde
314 Posted 24/10/2016 at 02:54:43
Davies deserves a chance. Quite frankly I'm sick of Barkley. That massively overhit ball for Rom, when all it needed was an average speed across the box (didn't even have to be pinpoint, just in his vicinity), was a joke.

Also, who was it that tamely lost a challenge just before the winner? Looked like Rom?

Terry White
315 Posted 24/10/2016 at 03:36:17
Damian (#314), not for the first time Bolasie got the ball stuck between his feet and lost it.
David Barks
316 Posted 24/10/2016 at 03:47:43
Yes, that was Bolasie who had the ball played to him, perfectly fine ball, and Bolasie completely blew it and lost possession. I'm honestly a little surprised at the lack of stick Bolasie has gotten so far with how often he loses the ball and chooses one-on-one instead of passing to the open man.
Damian Wilde
317 Posted 24/10/2016 at 05:22:22
Terry, David, thanks. It looked pathetic, cost us dearly. You can't lose a ball like that on the edge of the area with a few minutes left. I despair.

I agree, the incident has not been mentioned much.

Ernie Baywood
318 Posted 24/10/2016 at 05:30:41
David (#299). I'm not making excuses for failing to beat the likes of Burnley. Far from it.

It really is best if, when responding to a point, you've actually read it. I'm not saying you need to read my posts, but it would be useful if you're going to respond.

Ernie Baywood
319 Posted 24/10/2016 at 05:32:59
Damian 314, unless I'm thinking of a different attack, I thought it was Mirallas who crossed it too hard for Rom.
Brian Porter
320 Posted 24/10/2016 at 06:24:31
Mick Davies (#313), how spooky! I've just made exactly the same point, mentioning the same three players, on another thread. Quite clearly, we see and think the same, as I'm sure some others must do too.

Jagielka has really 'gone off the boil', is not captain material, and age is catching up with him, as well as regular soft tissue injuries. Funes Mori should be given time to develop a working partnership with Williams. After all, Ramiro is younger, faster, and a player who can be part of our future whilst Jags is coming to the twilight of his career. If he's good enough for Argentina, he's surely good enough for a rather mediocre Everton?

I agree also re Lennon and Davies. We aren't scoring from midfield this season, yet we have Lennon who I think scored 7 last season, more than either Mirallas or Deulofeu. And Tom Davies looked as if he was on the brink of regular game time but is now ignored. His pace and style reminds me so much if his uncle (Alan Whittle), who was a speedy winger for us when we were still a team to be feared. Lennon always works his socks off for the team so, as you say, why isn't Koeman using these players more?

I hope our new manager isn't going to prove as inflexible as the previous incumbent in keeping certain players sidelined without giving them sufficient opportunities to give their best for the team.

I'll be looking out for more of your posts, Mick.

Ernie Baywood
321 Posted 24/10/2016 at 13:39:24
Lennon's only just back from injury isn't he? But, yes, even with his fairly average goal threat, he is worth a go.

On Jags, his age and injuries have cost him his pace. Watching the lumbering Vokes take yards off him on Saturday highlighted that. But that's not the only reason he's underperforming. He's simply not that good a footballer and gets exposed when asked to play out from the back. Teams will allow us possession rather than letting us counter attack them... that means he has to get plenty of the ball. Jags struggles with even the basics in that regard.

It's no surprise his best years were when we played backs-to-the-wall direct football. He made incredible blocks, tackles and launched direct balls forward. He was absolutely brilliant at that style of play and one of the bravest I've seen. I'll bet he could still do it and would have been a roaring success in last year's Leicester side.

Greg Lambden
322 Posted 24/10/2016 at 13:50:45
Strange substitutions, struggling to score goals and comical defensive errors – Koeman is doing a fine impression of Martinez.
Patrick Murphy
324 Posted 24/10/2016 at 14:21:32
Mr Moshiri – are you reading all of the posts about the players who Everton FC need to replace in the coming months???

Goalkeeper: Both adequate but not Champions League material, to replace with proper world class potential; circa £30m.

Defence: Too many old players reaching the end of their careers plus a few who shouldn't be at the club. Cost to replace: circa £15m per player, total cost: £60m.

Midfield: One decent young player, one decidedly inconsistent young player, a couple of crocks, and an ageing stalwart. To replace two of those with an ace playmaker and a 'general' cost £100m?

Attack: Hmmm.... one potentially world class goalscorer who doesn't really like being at the club, his mate a Fancy Dan player who blows hot and cold, a couple of ne'er-do-wells who cost a fortune but have produced little or nothing. The rest are just not good enough to be in a team with Champions League ambitions.

So, to replace those players with actual proven Champions League experience, would likely cost in the region of £150m+ but, taking away the fee we may get for Lukaku, that means an outlay of around £100m

So, Mr Moshiri, are you sitting comfortably? The total bill will be circa £250m and, although you may recoup close to £100m for a couple of the current squad, the players who are deemed unfit for purpose will continue to turn up at Finch Farm every day and will expect to be paid their weekly wedge of circa £35k pw or more.

I bet you wished you had stuck to buying expensive yachts or some other hobby as this football lark is a real headache...

Oh, and by the way, there is the little matter of building a new stadium. Happy days are here again...

Peter Murray
325 Posted 24/10/2016 at 14:26:56
Totally agree with Brian (#17) – as our supposed centre-forward, he appears totally uninterested!!! Body language – horrendous; commitment – zero; control – minimal; but... he scores – if the ball is provided within the 6-yard area!!!

Although we appeared to price him excessively, and got an additional season, there must be better, more team, competitive players for less than this "I love me", pre-madonna.

Ron must realise he's not here for the long ride & signings are called for. I too went to the game & luck did not come into it – COMMITTMENT, 100% ENDEAVOUR from all the opposition, all match, was there. We didn't have this will to fight – AGAIN.

Terry McLavey
326 Posted 24/10/2016 at 14:53:36
Colin Malone (#41 & #84),

I think so – he saved 2 penalties last week that went to the left. Someone was saying we need a new goalkeeper!

Things take time. Ferguson was nearly sacked when he took over at Man Utd and look how that turned out?

Jim Hardin
327 Posted 24/10/2016 at 16:12:10
Darren (#140),

To your point of Burnley being inferior at almost every position, I wonder if you would take Vokes to play up the left side? He set up a large percentage of Ings's goals and is doing the same for Gray. He also scores on his own and gets into the box.

I also wonder if you would swap our goalkeeper and two center-backs for Burnley's? I wanted Mee as a successor to Baines a couple of seasons ago as a left-back. Who knew he could be such a good center-back?

As a disclaimer, I do follow Burnley as they are the first English football team I every saw play over here in the USA. Heck, I even hoped Coyle would do well over here in the MLS despite the D-bag way in which he left the Clarets.

Damian Wilde
328 Posted 24/10/2016 at 16:54:03
Ernie (#319), okay, fair enough.
Jon Cox
329 Posted 24/10/2016 at 18:44:45
It was never about how individually brilliant a footballer you are.

It was and is how brilliant a footballer you are AND how brilliant a team player you are.

Seems to me this current squad have far too many personal agendas going on to the detriment of the team.

"Greed is good?"

You're 'avin a Turkish.

Mick Davies
330 Posted 24/10/2016 at 18:58:36
Brian @320, it's because we're cynical old (well I am) Evertonians. We're programmed to analyse the problems while other clubs' fans are celebrating winning things, lol.
Darren Hind
331 Posted 24/10/2016 at 20:17:11
Chris Gould,

Perhaps I move in different circles to you. In my world, people call a spade, a spade; if you are talking shite, you can bet your life some fucker will tell you so.

I have yet to be in a conversation where the other guys said to me "I beg to differ, old chap." The people in my life who disagree with me are far more likely to tell me I'm talking out of my arse. Ya see, in a funny kind of way, I respect that: real people having real conversations.

You, on the other hand, seem to move in more polite circles... when somebody tells you you're talking shite, you think it's the height of rudeness. You are outraged and insulted... so let me communicate to you in your language – words you yourself would use.

"Thank fuck for the FEW rational and sane people on here" (the few who agree with you) because some people are just "throwing pathetic tantrums" and they'll end up "looking right numpties" when you are proved right. They need to "stop being babies" or although "not wishing to offend".

You will tell them they are talking "utter bollocks" and order them to try to "be positive" – like you. The "moaners who just want to point fingers" probably speak with "a girlie and over exaggerated squeal" ... and even if they don't, they are still "overly negative whiners".

Thanks Chris; I now know how you more polite people engage. You don't have to be blunt (like rude Darren). Oh no, it's far more acceptable to be above all that and come one here taking cheap shots at just about EVERYBODY who has the temerity to expect us to get decent results against shite teams.

I will accept and readily admit that I talk to people on here in exactly the same way as I talk to friends in the ale house. I kinda like it when they do the same to me; it's real... honest.

I've read your posts, I've read your ever-so-polite personal attacks on those who you constantly label "negative" ... You're repeated returns to attack anybody who disagrees with you – they're all still up there...

How on earth do you feel justified in calling everyone else 'negative'? You not only accept shite, you keep coming back to get all abusive and scream the house down at those who don't... Does it get any more negative (or hypocritical) than that???

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