Silva: Derby atmosphere was fantastic

My TV audio blew out.

I know it's not the same watching on the tube. But you can tell. The place was just absolutely rocking.

It's so awesome to watch a game at Goodison when the crowd is completely into it, 100% behind the team, and baying support rivaling anything on earth.

Motivate those boys to put forth an effort like that every week Marco, and you'll get your bear pit.

I'm praying the fans stick right with the team. This is a crucial moment for Marco and the Club, and he's asking for support. He'll need it with Chelsea, Arsenal, and Man Utd coming to town. I hope they receive the exact same "welcome" as the stink did.

Our last nine games are anything but meaningless. We need to take some scalps, finish strong, and look with positivity to next season with a few new signings. The crowd can play a large role in that in my opinion.

Any malaise creeps back in, it'll be a really suspect time for us.

Had it been Anfield, the commentators would have been creaming about the atmosphere and waxing lyrical about how special the kop is. Got a few mentions, but nowhere near as much comment as it warranted. Great effort by the faithful!!

Same again in two weeks time for Chelsea, please!

It's the chicken-or-egg debate: Do fans need to motivate players to perform well — or should players gee the fans on to give them something to get excited about?

All I know is, if everyone plays there part ,it's usually a better day!

It's impossible to recreate that atmosphere on a regular basis unless you are chasing the title or fighting relegation with only a few games to go.

When it's a bog-standard home game against a team like Burnley or West Ham etc, then there simply won't be a real atmosphere because there is nothing riding on the game.

That's one of the reasons I've always valued cup runs so highly, it keeps the crowd enthused right up until the end of the season. That feeling of still being able to actually do something rather than just fizzling out at the end of yet another disappointing season.

Made me think about bullies, and that is exactly Klopp's style of play. They play with tempo, they try and force you into mistakes, but when you stand up to the bully, you realise they are not as scary as they seemed, and that's why I loved Van Dijk's comments at the end.

Back to Silva, I'm sure he was already aware of the power that Goodison can bring to the Everton team, and I hope he can bring in some players that can help him play in a style that can really engage the Everton crowd, and give us a team that make it easy to get behind.

But, whatever happens at future games, Sunday's match will linger in my memory for a long time. The longer the game went on, the more rattled the Shite looked as our players seemed to inhale the crowd's fervour and match it with their own. Sure, we weren't brilliant, but we really went for it.

I'm hoping that the manager and the new players in the team will realise that's what the fans want, and that's what they respond to. If Silva gets that, then he gets Everton, then he understands the job.

Funnily enough, Jim, you saying that about them being shaken around the 60-minute mark, a red mate of mine said the same thing and remarked it gave us a boost.

I just hope we replicate it for the remaining home games because the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea will shit themselves — especially Arsenal, who aren't good travellers.

More of the same, please, boys!!!

Some of the utter garbage they have served up of late, is an insult to the loyal support, home and away. Let's hope that the penny has finally dropped.

When he was manager of Watford they led at half time but the second half the crowd were magnificent and lifted the players to win the game. Silva commented after the game that he thought the fans had a massive influence on the result, and said his Watford players needed to handle it better than they did.

So I guess he has been surprised that he has had to wait so long to see Goodison rocking and even more than it did against Watford. Yes, results and performance have an impact, but the crowd were in their best bear-pit mood long before kick off. The other lot are always praised for the atmosphere they create mainly on European nights but, for me, there is no better atmosphere when the whole of Goodison gets behind the team.

Also when you hear Wenger and Ferguson and quite a few ex-players saying they hated playing at Goodison then that endorses my opinion that a Goodison that's rocking is the best atmosphere around. But we as fans need to realize this and make more games are like this not just against any of the top 6 teams.

He was in a massive hole but we appear to be coming through it. I genuinely believe Silva is a good manager, both the derby performances prove that. But we need to carry that power and passion into other matches as well and build some confidence and momentum.

We are seriously hampered by a lack of firepower and that invites pressure on us at times. It must be resolved in the summer... now, over to you, Mr Brands.

I tend to agree with you but let's wait a few more games before we talk of corners being turned and getting ourselves out of a hole.

It will be gutting if we don't get a positive result against Newcastle, we need to be expansive there because they are there for the taking.

As I said before he was appointed, he’d never been a bad run of form before. Okay he was at Watford, but he was sacked before he could show he could turn it around. That was the big question mark over silva, for me. So, if he passes that test this season, by coming out the other side, then he could be the manager that I hoped for.

Momentum is a big thing in football, if we finish as strongly as we were poor just a couple of games ago, and with a couple of key signings and a real sense of optimism for next season, and get off to a good start, then why can’t we break the top six next season and then start to claw our way back to where we should be (1st - NSNO).

Thousands of flags and banners on the Kop not much voice, Goodison on Sunday, a flag here and there, voices as loud at the end as they were at the beginning, we hadn't given up still willing them on,them Norwegians don't know how to support their team like Scousers.

What I would like to see happen would be for David Unsworth to be given a coaching role with the first team. He has done well with the Under-23s who won again last night at Anfield to stay top of the league despite having a few eligible players out on loan.

I know a lot of managers have a group of coaches who move with them from club to club. But I think he needs to be given a chance at coaching the first team, and I am sure he would work well with Marco Silva. But whether Silva would see that appointment as a threat to him I don't know. I know some will say well he was given a trial when Koeman was sacked but the run of games he had was a poisoned chalice.

I also think if you are trying to build stability at the club, then what better way than promote from within if they have the ability, which I think Unsworth has.

Much will depend on our next three results, two tricky away games at Newcastle and West Ham and in between those is the home game against Chelsea.

Newcastle and West Ham are negotiable with the right kind of application and attitude and we need to have seen the last of results and performances like Brighton, Southampton and Watford away and Leicester, Wolves at home.

We need to win at Newcastle really as since Christmas we have lost far too many points against poor or average teams all due to being outfought and that’s hard to stomach.

If we match Newcastle for attitude and commitment on Saturday then we simply should beat them.

Hopefully the penny has finally dropped with the players regarding the levels required.

And Derek 15, I wholeheartedly agree that they should realise and appreciate how important the fans are. What they fail to understand, is that a lot of people have season tickets and a majority come to some of the games at Goodison Park when they can and the fans have saved a lot of hard earned money, so they can be here and watch their team play.

At times Everton haven't played the best of football, of which their efforts before the Cardiff and the derby game, were not something that could be applauded. Every time the players perform, they should give 100% commitment, work hard, give their best efforts in seeking to win games and play with pride like they love playing for Everton.

They owe a lot to us fans as does the manager and they need to show us their appreciation of our support.

As for the progress of the team, we had a positive result against Cardiff and I thought we were unfortunate not to win the derby game. I hope we can build on those positives in performing better, gaining some good form and start winning again and hopefully go from strength to strength.

I remember when the present RS owners just took over and attended their first derby, at Goodison, they were really shocked by the noise.

Sunday it was the supporters that led the way to encourage the team. Silva reckons it's a two-way thing, so now over to the players to inspire the fans.

They are all onto them.

Very droll.

I've said this before, might be a load of shite, but if Louis Walsh, can pick out a bunch of individuals out of a talent show, and turn them into bands, that can go and smash America, (he done it twice) then surely the same thing could happen in football sometimes.

Silva, wants to succeed, and Unsworth seems to be a talented coach, who has definitely got Everton blood running through his veins, so I don't see no reason why this couldn't work, for the benefit of our team?

Silva has to work as the figurehead of his team. Leeds famously appointed Clough without Taylor, and that was an unmitigated disaster.

What would Unsworth actually bring to this party? what would his role be? who's role would he be replacing, what would happen to that person?

Coaching is not like in the 1970s. It's not like coaching the local u10s. Everton have a team of analysts, not just one, but a team of over 5. They crunch the data, and Silva analyses it himself, with one of his own guys heading up that team. The identify weaknesses in the opposition, and try to come up with a game plan to exploit said weaknesses. They also identify how the opponent will exploit our own weaknesses.

Therefore, our coaching is compartmentalised. They run specific plays designed to manoeuvre the opposition out of position for certain players to find and exploit space.

For example, Sigurdsson has scored a couple of pullbacks recently, so Silva may have been working on drills where we get the ball down the flanks, whilst making Sigurdsson pop up in a certain position to receive the ball in space and slot home.

that's just one very basic example out of a set of numerous drills they will run, which have a number of "phases". It will involve all of the team running these drills with the ball moving in certain ways, so that they can make this happen in a game when the opportunity presents itself.

The coaching is very specific for each game and each opponent, taking into account the players they have the players we have.

Sure, Unsworth does seem an able coach, and I would very much like to see him as a manager one day, but I think it is very wrong, and very dangerous to force a coach into a setup that has been hired for a particular reason.

Silva has not used the same team at every club. There is a core of 3 of them from the Estoril days, and he's picked up others from Sporting and from Olympiacos, and even brought in a rival from Benfica to Everton to work with him for the first time. If Silva likes what he sees from Unsworth, then he may bring him in, of his own accord.

The bottom line is that you have to let the man, and his team of coaches, coach the way they want to. If it's not good enough, then you get rid of them all, you can't just force coaches on managers, as that has never worked.

I did post on another thread, that we, the fans can be the biggest influence on confidence & motivation. We can make the difference, but admittedly, the players have to reciprocate. With that call to arms by the Manager, I really hope the Goodison faithful respond between now and the last game of the season, and bring back the magic.

These set plays sound great, but football only stands still, on the television, or when the ball goes out of play, or the ref blows up for a foul sometimes?

Not disagreeing with you but football is about trying to do the right thing, at the right times, and getting the ball wide and looking to cut it back for someone running in to score, is the one of the most natural ways for any team in which to attack, IMO.

You say that it never works in football Steve, but other than Duncan Ferguson, outliving countless Everton managers, I’ve never been aware of it ever happening to be honest mate.

One of the biggest problems at the top of game, is that football is full of egos, but if people can put aside this deficiency, then they might find that, when they have a common goal, that it’s better to work with someone who really cares about what they are doing?

John G #25, thanks for posting that. Somebody on Fulham's marketing staff is a very good writer. I have a bit of a Cottager soft spot because some of my favorite USA internationals have played there, so I'll be sorry to see them go down.

The Watford game reminded me of fond memories of beating relegation. It was the crowd that would not give up and rallied the team and urged them on. Silva saw first hand the power of Goodison, I think he’s disappointed it’s take him until now to get that for his team, but it’s to be expected when results have been very poor.

Tony, I would love some clarification on Ferguson’s role. I have been told a few times now that he’s a cheerleader or a “water boy” (reference to the movie), who does nothing more than put the cones out.

However, he seems to be more and more prevalent on the bench now. Also, Zouma scored that header and ran past the bench clearly pointing at Big Dunc, indicating it was something they were working on. So perhaps Ferguson’s playing a bigger and bigger role?

He’s now been under four very different managers, five if you include Unsworth, so he must have learnt a lot, surely anyone could, especially an ex-pro. Maybe, he’s now proving himself to Silva and he’s one of them devising sessions and running them himself, with Marco watching on?

As for examples of it happening before, try Houillier for Roy Evans (albeit as joint managers!!), I recall Rene Meulensteen having a load of coaches appointed on him as he flopped badly in the top job. There are others but I’d need to rack my brain for them. Pretty sure Bruce resigned after being forced to work with someone. And other young coaches like the lad at Swansea being told who to have but then slowly getting rid of them.

Firstly the reason that it didnt work for Clough at Leeds wasnt so much the fact that he didnt have Peter Taylor with him, its because he loathed Revie and the way his Leeds team played. On his first day at training he gathered all the players together and told them to throw all the medals they had won in the bin because he said they had cheated to win them. He should never have gone to Leeds and his 44 tenure says it all, he shouldnt have been persuaded by Taylor to join Brighton another bad choice.

For me he is up there with the very best, and could argue he was the best. to win what he won with the players he had was brilliant apart from a couple of exceptions they had all been discarded by their previous clubs.

As for my suggestion of Unsworth joining the first team coaching team, he has already demonstrated what a good coach he is for his work with the Under 23s. Coaching is far more than running plays or having analysts point out things that should be obvious to a good manager. Just look at the most successful manager in England Alex Ferguson, he changed his first team coach every couple of seasons why because he wanted to use the best coaches available. But he was the one who bought the players, picked the team and decided the style of play.

He has been under massive pressure this week and has passed Section (a) of the last 11-game test.

Things are looking better, morale looks up and 2 clean sheets is glorious for him. The defence has looked better, Zouma and Keane played well. Seamus and Digne likewise.

It doesn't look like a blip, it looks like an upturn for us. I think we can get consistent and finish strong.

Section (b) starts on Saturday away to The Barcodes. They are playing better and it will be a tough test for us. They have more quality than Cardiff and a top manager. It is a great game for us to see where we are at... fully motivated and organised, Everton can take the 3 points.

As for Alex Ferguson, he was a great manager, but he changed coaches because he never did the coaching himself. He knew his limitations and got the best people in to do that.

Silva is not an Alex Ferguson, and I doubt we'll ever see his like again. Silva is in the same vein as Guardiola, and Pochettino. No, not in terms of quality, but in terms of his capability on the coaching ground and a vision for how things happen on the pitch. This type of manager relies on his own coaching ability first and foremost. If he relies on another coach to do the main part of the coaching then the other coach is interpreting his vision and so something could be lost.

The guys Silva has worked with for the last 8 years will understand where that vision and be able to interpret it and even modify or improve it. Sure, freshening things up is great, but it needs to be the right guy. We all saw how Unsworth plays, and I like it a lot, it's good old fashioned Everton style attacking football, but it's not quite how Silva wants to play.

Also, does Unsworth want to be part of "team Silva", particularly when he might be dismissed if things go badly again, or would he rather be continuing to grind his way to another u23 title, and biding his time waiting for Everton to come calling again. Unsworth has this season's u23 title in the bag now. He will need to rebuild another side next season, and that will be difficult, but for the season after that, he has Anthony Gordon (who will be 19 then), Ellis Simms (also will be 19 then) and Korede Adedoyin (who will then be 20). I think that trio could be special, and certainly could land Unsworth another u23 title, 3 in 5 years would be something. He seems best placed, to me, in the u23s and waiting for the next call to be caretaker and meantime doing a top job bringing these excellent young kids through. He will get another shot (unless Silva does the unthinkable and the next manager is "Hollywood" as we have Champions League to offer) and he can build a side on the back of these excellent youngsters, hopefully in much better circumstances to last time.

However, there is no place like Goodison Park when all 4 sides of the ground get going, it can be almost deafening. I have always thought that is our “job” as supporters; that is to help the team as much as possible. It was difficult to get excited during Koemans second season and even more so under Allardyce. Although Unsworth's team generally received decent backing from us.

I appreciate that some of the performances under Silva have been very poor but there still players out there who can excite. As Sunday showed, when we play our part, so does the team. So I think we as supporters need to get out of bad habits brought on by previous managers and roar on the current team through thick and thin. You never know we may even win all of last 4 homes games if we do.

You are wrong about Ferguson not doing the coaching I know a lad who played with the class of 92 and I can assure you Ferguson did a lot of the coaching. You don't get to win 3 league titles 4 Scottish Cups and a UEFA Cup with a club like Aberdeen unless you can coach. Also he was doing it when Rangers and Celtic had good sides.

The reason he used so many coaches at Man Utd was because he knew that players over time got used to your methods and sometimes took things for granted. So he brought in top coaches to freshen things up, new training routines instead of what they had been used to. But he also did most of the coaching but at a massive club like Man Utd a manager cant always be on the training ground as often as they would like.

Sad that you only remember Clough when the demons had taken over, a little like they did with Howard in his 2nd and 3rd spells. Just a pity John Moores didnt have the balls to appoint Clough as Everton manager maybe if he had it would have been us winning European Cups back to back like forest did under him.

You talk about Pochettino another excellent manager, last summer I read the book about him written by Guillem Balague a fascinating read. When he first went to Spurs he had them videoed as they arrived for training every day then videoed every training session. The players didnt like it at first, but they come to realize it was an aid to show them how they could improve now they love it. But he has a settee at the training ground and he asks a player to sit with him and chat about everything other than football. H e wants to know about their kids are they happy and the same for the wives, his philosophy is if the kids and the wife is happy then you have a happy player who will give of his best.

Goodison playing the siren then Z Cars and Grand Old Team up to the kick off started the crowd off, and it was sustained for most of the game. The redshite never sang the 'Library' dirge once, in fact they were completely drowned out all game.

A little assistance from the stadium announcer and sound guys can really go a long way. Allied with driving the team on, the thus improving play increases the atmosphere, driving them on more in an ever increasing benign circle.

Someone at Everton should carry on the good work, but also utilise the German model of crowd engagement, with the crowd shouting out the players surnames when the team is announced.

Heres to more Goodison days like Sunday.

One story I heard, he had three or four apprentices working on his garden. Nigel Clough came in, he had just flown back from abroad, after playing for the England U21s. Walking up the path of the house, knackered, ready for some “kip”.

Brian shouted to him, “Don”t take your coat off, you can drive these lads back to the ground.” Nigel knew his place, never argued, just did as he was told.

And the safe standing option must, in my view, be included for both home and away fans (as exists in Germany). I think we might then go some way to creating a bear-pit atmosphere at our new home.

You are right Keith, we need those little riffs and crowd prompts too. My personal preference would be the fanfare from "Forever Everton" playing in short bursts, I really love that song, it gets better with age!

Can the atmosphere be replicated ? - of course it can. The team need to show the desire and determination that was evident on Sunday and the fans will reciprocate accordingly. It's still too early to say whether this could be Silva's Kevin Brock moment but it is up to him and his players to use Sunday as a springboard to better things, starting with continuing the two game unbeaten run and build upon the two clean sheets gained.

Was it finally the realizations that the Cardiff and Liverpool games could see him lose his job?

The players seemed to have no problems executing it, so perhaps contrary to some opinion they are more than capable of understanding and following instructions.

Or was it just the occasion?

Maybe Silva’s original dependency on previous tactics was flawed for the players he has? This might see a less expansive Everton as the season runs down, a notion he should have cottoned onto much earlier.

But a return to the turgid malaise at Newcastle on Saturday will just make the tactical adherence in Liverpool game the exception rather than the rule.

I’m not sure exactly when he hung his whistle up but it was Carlos Quieroz and Mike Phelan doing all the coaching in their time as his assistants. Brian Kidd was also supposedly an excellent coach, so much so that he’s still at City playing a part under Guardiola.

Ferguson accepts he was never the greatest coach, he didn’t need to be. He also wasn’t the greatest tactician. He was great at managing people and that included off the pitch backroom staff.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t our own Great Harry Catterick used to stay in his little hut in the corner of Bellefield and not bother coaching or watching the training of the players, instead leaving it up to his assistants?

Plenty of great managers achieved success without being a great coach. Another of our own managers, Walter Smith was another watcher who stood in the sidelines rather than leading the coaching. As was Ronald Koeman, who left it all up to Erwin.

I love Marcelo Bielsa, but he’s not the coach he once was. His methods were heavily criticised last season, and he was said to be extremely dated. It’s working at Leeds, but observers have remarked how it’s nothing innovative, just typical Bielsa coaching, as devised in the 1990’s. Time marches on, even against the innovators. I doubt Guardiola will still be winning trophies in 10/15 years time. Most likely to burn himself out, but also likely to be out of date and left behind.

This is what Alex Ferguson understood and why he tried to move with the times by getting in the best guys, like Quieroz and Rene Meulensteen.

A friendship that started at Middlesbrough, where Taylor was the goalkeeper and lasted at different clubs until their fallout, a great shame for everyone involved.

Why is Digne, so wide when Salah, got his chance in the first half, and why does the same player have to come from nowhere to clear a certain goal for Fabinho, with a great last ditch tackle, when everyone had stayed deep from a corner?

I’ve heard a couple of shouts that the defenders have started disagreeing with the coach, with regards to certain aspects of defending, and this is why I think someone like Unsworth or Stubbs, might just be able to make a better fist of it, but maybe Steve is right, and they might just get in the way of what Silva, wants to do with his set-up?

Let’s face it, to many sideways or backward passes are not something that gets the crowd on its feet, so unless our style changes, (hopefully with better players) then it’s only going to be loud at Goodison, every so often at best?

He said Kidd, used to really run them ragged every so often, and the phrase that was used every time the players were on their knees finished, was “well done lads-that's another one in the bank.”

Football is about loads of things, but real winners never know when they are beat, especially when they are as fit as possible, which enables them to never give in?

Dave @54, I read somewhere that the only reason that Clough, ever became a manager in the first place, was because Taylor, had spotted his talent, and had told him how great he could be if he put his mind to management?

It will cover many things but the starting point is to develop toughness, both physical and mental, on the pitch. The lovelier stuff will follow. That’s the right way round, the right way to create an enduring challenge.

Start with the one touch, flowing football - or some pretence towards it - but without foundations or the consistent ability to make it work and you will find yourself where we were a month ago.

Lets get mean and annoying; Sunday was a starting point.

What I feel, but find it difficult to define, is that there has been a shift in "tone" with the manager and the team. Such things are crucial and while we still have much to do, I truly believe that Sunday (and the Cardiff game, actually) will be regarded as a turning point for all sorts of reasons.

Can anybody explain the current situation with Mina?

I'm not sure whether he is genuinely injured or is happy to take the money for little or no return!!!

I played loads of games as a left back, and the first thing I learned was when the ball was on the other side of the pitch, then take up a position that will help you cover your centre backs.

I know football has changed but it’s a lot easier to pull out wide once your team has full control of the ball, than it is to chase back because you are out of position defensively, and this is what I see way too much of from our fullbacks, and why I think Silva’s system, might work better with 3 centrehalves?

As for Mina, the guy will come good and he is genuinely injured. I wonder if you saw any game other than the England one in the World Cup, because I was very impressed with him. Tim Vickery was raving about him for years too. He just needs some patience.

I know Snides is not good enough, but when you and John Daly, both say this has always been the most important position in any Silva team, then maybe the manager might just be finding it easier getting his point across, and the players might also be finding him a lot easier to understand?

I think I understand the system Marco wants to play, but it’s never going to work until he gets the right players imo, and that’s why I’d love him to tweak a few things, because I’d really love him to succeed?

Being a keen student of the game and as someone who has written glowingly of Bielsa, if you haven't done so already I suggest you read and listen to the following article and podcast on the Beeb.

Link

Link

You might care to review your opinion that he is not the coach he once was and that his methods are extremely dated.

I watched their game Friday night vs WBA. They way they constantly had 3 men pressing the opposition player in possession reminded me of our all-conquering mid-80s side. They were excellent.

Numerous players and officials within the club say should Bielsa leave tomorrow, the structure he has put in place will make it easy for any incoming manager to step into and continue the good work he has started.

The podcast in particular highlights his thoroughness and attention to detail and how he has completely transformed Leeds' fortunes in less than a season. In fact, he sounds as if he has OCD - obsessive compulsive disorder - in many, many seemingly trivial details, but there always appears method behind such apparent madness.

You recently said it is unrealistic to expect a manager to transform a club in his first season. Bielsa has done just that with pretty much the same players as he inherited, and doing it with tremendous style too.

Now to see what team is picked for Newcastle. Let's hope Sunday is not another flash in the pan.

There's loads to go for after Sunday in terms of points, pride and for many of this Everton squad, their futures.

I agree with your section (b) analogy. The Barcodes is a big, big game in my opinion.

Coming off a dreadful run after what seemed an 84 week break (approx. 2 in reality) to play Cardiff, there surely had to be a response, and plenty of time for Silva to coach his players up and shore up his tactics. We should have won that game by any metric, and we did. Convincingly.

Then you have the mother of all games, the derby. Surely, again, if the players can't get up for that game there's massive problems. We acquitted ourselves very well in my opinion.

Now. . . every single excuse for a loss is on the table this weekend. We're away from Goodison. We're coming off the "emotional high" of a derby. We've had two good results snatching 4 points out of a possible 6 in our last two. There's really not much left to play for, so they say.

A loss will mean we can't get up for it. We've not learned our lessons in effort and application. It would show, to me, that there are players willing to coast and go through the motions, playing at 75% effort and not having that "killer instinct".

A win and a similar effort to that which we've seen the last two games would mean we can indeed keep the momentum running, we're moving forward, and the attitude has changed.

A culture of winning is just that. Losses aren't tolerated. Effort must be at its peak for every game. I think this upcoming week will show us an awful lot about where this team truly is mentally and in the wider picture.

The away support will, without a doubt, be behind the team after this recent run of games.

Of that I have zero doubt.

So it's down to Marco and the boys. Show us which direction you're heading in come Saturday.

Steve Ferns - off the beer for Lent! You're a bigger man than I.

How do you even do that?

I'm quitting the pinch between my cheek and gum. Nicotine is the devil. It might kill me, but I doff my cap as I could never give up beer!

In fact, it's almost a back five at times. I thought the Burnley game was his light bulb moment, as a genuine back five suited the personnel better. You alluded to that too, I agree, I still think that's our best formation.

With nearly all the games ‘away' as the home games are against much better sides, compact and counter-attack would make a better plan.

But truly I'm not sure he really has changed that much!

Anyway, in the 1990s Bielsa, back in Argentina re-invented closing down and took it to extremes. Then he came to Bilbao and blew everyone, including Man Utd away. Although his team ran out of gas, as has since become customary. As an aside, note his own league victories came in Argentina in shortened league campaigns with Messi’s favorite team, NOBs.

Anyway, Bielsa was the pioneer. The “high priest of the press” and an innovative coach with new and fresh ideas. Those ideas are now dated. Everyone from Guardiola, Pochettino, his old assistant Sampioli, and even Klipperty has taken what he preached and adapted it to suit themselves.

Now everything you said is correct. But you say this as if it revises my position, not so. His coaching is dated. His methods on the training ground are old hat. Tying rope around defenders legs to get the back four to stay closer together is something we did in England in the 1980’s.

So yes, he’s still pulling up trees and recovered spectacularly from his failure at Lille and the implosion at Marseille, the farce at Lazio and restored his reputation.

And yes he’s still a fantastic coach. He’s attentive to details, he’s a great motivator and enthusiastic and infectious in his personality. But that doesn’t change that his coaching has all been seen before, copied and improved, but he’s still doing the same old thing. But, as they say, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And I still love the guy.

If Silva's tactics work as they should they speed things up, not slow them down. Schneiderlin should be hitting the easy ball to Walcott instead of going for the easier but pointless sideways pass. Silva doesn't want that sideways pass he wants it out onto the flank quickly. He wants us higher up the pitch with the ball before the opposition has recovered their shape. Just because a player fails to execute the tactic correctly doesn't mean that what he's doing is the actual tactic or his instructions, nor does it mean the tactic won't work. As for adapting tactics, I think that's not the case, it's more the players starting to do what they were always meant to do.

Silva's comments that he isn't able to get another tactic into the players is telling. To me, he's saying that the players are struggling to implement this one, and how can he get them to do something else, which is actually harder, and will probably just confuse them. Expect more intense coaching and a fuller range of tactics after pre-season.

He's basically re-applying for his own job (who else is there?)...look, here's what I've done given a bit of time, how about it?.

It's his job to lose between now and the end of the May.

Second don't be so cheeky! Silva got a clear plan into them using existing players for the City, Cardiff and Liverpool games.

It's not the players cannot take on a plan, he's simply tried to in part something too fully and too quickly.

My frustration is clear. The fact he does not have three midfielders who can pass, quickly and with range, therefore his insistence on using them in an overly expansive system which has killed us, mostly when the onus is on us to dominate.

Belatedly and after repeated folly against much poorer sides, he has created the pressure himself, he may have realized he needs to reconfigure based on the limitations of his midfield. He has only looked like a half decent manager (ironically) against the better sides because he has accepted we will have less of the ball and is naturally less expansive.

By using Schneiderlin he will slow things down not speed things up I guarantee. My point was if he plays like a centre back, you might as well play a back 3 and utilize you wing backs as actually that retains a compact shape but is a more attacking option. Digne has a better passing range than Schneiderlin IMO and Coleman is far better suited to it too.

A back four with a Schniederlin gets the most out of maybe 2 of that back 5. A back 3 with wing backs arguably gets the best from 4 of that 5.

My over-arching point is Silva hasn't used the players he has inherited in their most natural positions whilst he imbues them with his style. Had he shown a touch more pragmatism he'd definitely have 7-10 more points and far less detractors.

Whatever the outcome this season, he's placed significant doubt in his ability were there need not be any!

Hope you're planning a big night out come Easter!

Best Jp

"Jay, you know more about Bielsa than anyone."

I'm pretty confident in saying I don't Steve, and absolutely certain I have never made such a claim about ANYTHING in this world in my entire life.

Now a man who does know a lot about Bielsa is Jed Davies who wrote a great book on the man after studying him for 3 years.

This link is an interview with Davies that summarizes Bielsa.

Link

For Everton fans maybe not interested in reading the entire article, I would recommend you read at least passage #5, Affinity with the fans. It will resonate with many of you.

Add to that moving example that in his time at Leeds he asked how many hours work a typical Leeds fan had to do to pay for a match day ticket and on learning it was 3 hours, he instructed the players to spend 3 hours tidying up litter at the training ground. This is a man who keeps his players grounded and very aware of their obligation to the fans.

But back to your post Steve. You repeat a myth that his teams run out of gas (easy to find counters to this, including from Jed Davies).

Similarly, Davies refers to how even now Guardiola applies strategies Pochettino devised by Bielsa, and the success the maverick is having with Leeds suggests his methods are far from dated as you claim.

Now he isn't (reverently) called 'El Louco' for nothing. He is as likely to walk as he is to stay if things are not exactly to his liking.

But he is an example of a manager who HAS totally transformed the mindset and infrastructure of a club in less than a season, proving it is possible to do so.

Running out of gas is no myth.

Happened at Newell’s. Happened for Chile. Happened for Bilbao. Happened for Marseille. Lille never got going. Happening again at Leeds. When has his side never run out of gas?

Only in the half season leagues of Argentina.

Why Bielsa is the man for Everton

I'm in the minority then. Sans one giveaway, he was excellent in my opinion against Liverpool, and excellent against Cardiff.

Err...no Steve. I wasn't trying to 'pull you up' on anything. Just offering an alternative opinion to your own to consider.

And for me it certainly isn't a question of semantics. I made no reference or distinction between his coaching and his management. That is something you've appended in your last post.

And I'm making my points to you because you are making claims in this thread that I don't agree with and simply offer an alternative point of view.

Here, for example, is a very well presented article on the myth (as I view it) of 'Bielsa Burnout' which you present as an absolute, indisputable.

Link

It again quotes Jed Davies who studied Bielsa for 3 and a half years.

If you listened to the podcast link I posted earlier you would have heard one of the fitness bods at Leeds saying the player data they monitor showing the players are getting stronger, rather than showing signs of fatigue.

Tony's comment at 52:

“Football is about loads of things, but real winners never know when they are beat, especially when they are as fit as possible, which enables them to never give in!”

Excuse me Tony but I have changed your question mark for three exclamation marks because in my opinion Silva should make that into a sign and put it up in the changing rooms at Finch Farm.

With the ball he was pretty careless, I did see more turnovers than perhaps just the one. However he was no worse than many in the team apart from Bernard. He definitely is providing added layer of protection, I think a back 5 would be better but no complaints.

But then again you can’t see much if you watch from a screen, compared to the excellent ‘beer googles’ you can get at the ground for the discerning match-goer. Hic!

Hic!

I think a lot of the "carelessness" we saw in the game SJP was also down to both sides, when it was appropriate per tactical instruction at the precise point on the pitch they were supposed to do so, closed down and caused a lot of pressure.

Although the game opened up, the ugly turnovers, to my recollection, occurred mostly in the first half. Both sides were closing aggressively when and where they were told to, to my eyes at least. Ergo, some brutal looking turnovers.

But Schneiderlin's giveaway to almost gift Salah a goal was really, really poor. Otherwise, I think he's been excellent the last two games in the main.

Not his biggest fan, but he's played really well our last two, again sans that one glaring error. Thankfully Jordan stepped up.

After he passes, he doesn't move quite quick enough, for me, to show for the ball again if a teammate needs that "support".

He passes, and then kind of watches or jogs. I'd like to see him pass, then move quickly to a point where a teammate can give him the ball back if needed.

It might be just me, but I have seen him pull that stunt more than once. It used to be an epidemic with him, and he's gotten much, much better. But I have seen him pass and not move quite as quickly as he should, or more importantly as quick as a teammate under pressure might want him to.

But it's more the exception rather than the rule the last few games he's played.

Might just be me looking for it too much, as it drives me crazy and I witnessed it all too often before his recent return? Sometimes it's hard to look at things afresh once you're jaded.

But again, overall, I think he's been really good. Time will tell if it continues or he reverts to type.

Goodison is real, it's raw if the crowd is worried or disappointed, you know it. No stage managed falseness for the cameras. No mindless songs about some twat "dying, dying, dying" – wish to fuck he'd hurry up.

The Old Lady is unique. when she rocks, there is no other ground to compare. No frills just passionate, passionate, football supporters on their feet shaking their fists, urging their team forward, screaming, baring their souls and their love of Everton Football Club. The place actually shakes to its foundations.

I have been worried for some time that the old lady had had its soul removed, poor management at the top, poor management at team level, brain-numbing anti-football served up on a weekly basis seemed to have killed the spirit of the Evertonian... What the fuck was I thinking?

I wasn't there on Sunday. I watched alone in a darkened room, but I recognised the old girl. She was back in all her glory, That unmistakable passion swept all around my living room. I swear there were times when I wanted to climb into the telly.

The soul of this stadium can't be extinguished. it will never die. Even when we've moved out and it's been leveled. You will still be able to stand on the spot, close your eyes and experience that incredible, outpouring of raw emotion.

Having watched the game again yesterday, I thought he improved in the second half to the level of barely adequate, the same level he achieved against Cardiff. I saw four egregious mistakes against the RS, not just the one that let in Salah, but after two of them the reds messed up and gave the ball right back, and another was covered by Keane and Coleman.

What's more, I didn't see a single really good play he made against the reds. Did you?

It may have been against Inter Milan after we had won the league, I am not sure, but I had never heard anything like it before or since.

Yes Goodison at its best is a mad house - as it should be.

After reading Jay Wood’s link @ 89 I think Marco Bielsa would fit right in if we are ever looking for a new manager - he would like us.

The thing that surprised me, particularly against Cardiff, was how much he freed up Gana to play further forward which in turn gave Sigurdsson more space. Against better opposition in the derby, he was less effective in this role and although Gana and Sigurdsson had decent games, they were winning the ball and closing down more than moving us forward. I still think Schneiderlin did ok though and was good without the ball.

For me the jury is still out with him, I wouldn't say he has redeemed himself, more like a stay of execution for now. It will be interesting to see how Silva lines the team up for the remaining games.

And that bloody drumming. Now we know these idiots organise all of this noise – it makes Crystal Palace seem sensible, even when they concede, the bleedin' awful drummer starts again.

Well, 25,000 pretendy Kopites holding their silly scarves and miming "that song" didn't do the trick. Give me the Spurs fans anyday.

We all want a great atmosphere during games, but how do you get up and make noise during a 1-1 draw to a side like Fulham when the best we can do is win and go 9th.

Fans expectations of the blues are set high, but there also realistic, we don't expect to win the league, especially with the current crop of players, but we expect to be top half all season and a cup run shouldn't be a big ask, especially when were going out to lower league sides.

A show of commitment against whoever the opposition is, one way of the getting the fans enthused.

Talk about bias toward the RS, I decided to watch the highlights again and selected youtube, the thumbnail was Everton v Liverpool, but just before the Match started it showed Liverpool v Everton.

His club career picks back up at Athletic Club Bilbao. As stated above, I always followed the club that Kendall left us for, especially when I got older and saw that they were a special club from a very interesting region. The Basques. We all know of ETA and with the way the Basques view Madrid, I saw some parallels to Liverpool. There's also a major port there. But what really fascinated and struck a cord with me was the cantera policy. Bilbao can only use players who are Basque. This now includes any Basques from the French side of the border, such as 1998 World Cup Winner Lizarazu. So, they can buy Basque's (mainly raiding their rivals Sociedad), but if they sell their players, as they often do, then they cannot replace them.

Bielsa saw a club that has always had the best youth policy in Spain for that very reason. And he built a side around a few household names, such as Fernando Llorente, Iker Muniain, Ander Herrera, and Javi Martinez. Only it was after Bielsa that they would go on to bigger and better things.

That first season he got off to a poor start, losing 3 and drawing the other 2. Then it clicked and he only lost 3 of the next 20 league games, before losing 7 of the last 13. It was in Europe that Bilbao really excelled with that memorable victory over Man Utd. They got to the UEFA Cup final but lost to Atletico, they also lost the Spanish Cup final to Barcelona. Then the vultures descended and picked off their best players in the summer, and as stated above, all the money in the world, with that cantera policy, does nothing for them, as they can only use it to pick up other Basque players off the other Basque clubs like Sociedad. But Real can have non-Basque players, and can replace the ones Athletic buy with non-Basque players. So sadly, the next season was no better.

2014 and Bielsa went to Marseille. He had an instant impact and they sat top of the table, above the rich PSG, on New Year's Day. They faded so badly they finished 4th. He started the new season but resigned after the first game.

2016 and Lazio, he didn't manage a game, walking out on "broken promises".

2017 and Lille, he came in to a club that had been 6th a year before he came in, and his brief was to get them back to there. Only he came in all guns blazing, and made the job impossible for himself. In true Bielsa style, he analysed and dissected all the games before he came in. He knew who he wanted rid of, and he told 11 players, 11 of the best players that he wanted rid. But like Everton, it was hard to get shut, big wages meant no one would take most of these under-performing players, and so they sat on the sidelines and whispered behind his back and sowed dissent. Lille failed spectacularly and were bottom. Beilsa's reputation was in tatters and whilst they finally won a couple of games and got off the bottom, he was suspended after 13 games and placed on gardening leave until being sacked in December. He played the players he ostracised for destabilising the team.

The reason he ended up at Leeds is not just that Lille damaged his reputation, it's that the guy loves a project. He wants the right club, with a great youth policy, as youth is key to his hard running tactics, to finally manage a club in Europe for more than his standard 18 months or so.

So, yes, there's lots of mitigating circumstances around the fact that he struggles to get a full 12 months out of his players in a hard club season, but the fact is, he's never done it.

He's an original in football. There's very few of them, even in history. And like most originals, they don't achieve the success. Instead, it's people who copy their ideas, water them down a bit, and fuse it with something else. A tempered Bielsa approach has been successful for Guardiola who fused it with the Cryuff tactics he grew up on. Pochettino calls him his footballing father, but he has never gone "full-Bielsa". Sampioli was his assistant at Chile, and is a chip off the old block, but whilst he did his best Bielsa impression as he brought glory to Chile (winning the 2015 and 2016 South American Championships) he did not employ a Bielsa style pressing game at Argentina, and flopped at the World Cup (though I would point to significant defensive deficiencies highlighted by the fact that Funes Mori getting a game in qualifying).

As much as I love Bielsa, he's now 63. He's rediscovered his passion at Leeds, and I hope he can finally finish a season strongly. I'd love him to bring a good club like Leeds back to the Premier League, and I'd love to see his antics in the Premier League. I still think his best days are behind him, namely 7 years ago.

“Marco was big for me. He improved all of us when he came in at Hull. He is someone I always think kindly of but of course he is now at the local rivals! Obviously he came in and worked individually with all the players, but for me he brought me on defensively and going forward as well even if it was a short space of time. Every week was different. Marco does his research. I am probably part of that research now. He looks at every player his team is against and he can point out the strengths and weaknesses they have."

Note a now top class defender saying Silva improved him defensively.

Different reporter expands on the quote a bit more:

"He was big for me. When he came in he improved us all at Hull, you could see that by the results we got. We fell short in the end, but he was the one who gave us a chance, a fantastic manager who did a lot of good things."

Great to hear that Coleman fucking blanked them bastards in the tunnel also... more of that from our entire squad would really please me.

Onwards to the Toon, Blues!

The point was, here is Robertson, another of Silva’s ex-players complimenting him and his coaching. I’ve still yet to see any of his former players have a bad word to say about him, and for me, that is unusual.

But yes, that all counts for nothing if he doesn’t improve them here. I just think it shows that he will, if we give him time.

My mate was trying to give me stick last week, saying it was all over Twitter about Everton, telling everyone to get in early, because we were having a flag day. He said he had a picture of twelve Everton flags, and you could just tell none of the them were off scousers.

Not really a scouse thing I said laughing, and I honestly think he didn’t get the irony.

Tell you what, my old sparring partner, that's some post you put up there. Blood-stirring stuff. I feel like I could run through a brick wall after reading that.

You're spot on. You can close you eyes and imagine, and can still feel the hairs rising. I still think about matches 50 years ago with a 60,000 gate, and it can make a grown man cry.

Like you, I wasn't there on Sunday, but wish I had been.

They pulled us all over the place, and always looked to have an extra player on the pitch, and I think it’s because, sometimes we look to be playing exactly the same way, but with one less defender on the pitch.

We try and play a similar system, but have much less cover defensively because we only have two central defenders on the pitch. So I’m with you and think it’s got to be better to play 3 at the back, until Silva can get players who can play his required system, the way he wants it to be played?

I remember a European game against Fiorentina under Moyes, when we nearly pulled of a great comeback after a 2-0 away defeat. The atmosphere was incredible. Shades of the Bayern game.

A Man Utd fan in work who watched the game said you could feel the atmosphere through the TV screen. He asked where did it come from and I replied that a genuine stadium atmosphere shouldn't be artificially manufactured but should be created by a sense of hope (or defiance!), the opposition or even the importance of the outcome.

The Man Utd fans a good lad, I made these comments for the benefit of the RS that where in our company, but I think the gist of them went right over there heads though!

Anyway, Everton being Everton, we lost on pens :-(

They pulled us all over the place, and always looked to have an extra player on the pitch, and I think it’s because, sometimes we look to be playing exactly the same way, but with one less defender on the pitch.

We try and play a similar system, but have much less cover defensively because we only have two central defenders on the pitch. So I’m with you and think it’s got to be better to play 3 at the back, until Silva can get players who can play his required system, the way he wants it to be played?

I hope Leeds come up, and I look forward to watching them if they do. Biasla’s energy, seems like a great fit for the passion of Leeds Utd, and if they do get promoted, I’m sure this style of football will go down great, and also surprise a lot teams next season?

Also how all those Norwegians get through the metal detectors at the airports with a thousand badges pinned to their scarves, is beyond me. Gobsbite bellends, the lot of em.

I think you've shifted the focus from my original post to you way back @ 53 in which I raised 2 points in answer to you introducing Bielsa into this thread:

1) sharing links with you to the very good article and podcast on the BBC site which offers an alternative view to your original claim that 'Bielsa is no longer the coach he once was and that his methods are dated', implying he is no longer effective or relevant, when clearly his work at Leeds this season shows otherwise.

2) as a counter example to your claims that 'it is unrealistic to expect a manager to transform a club in his first season.'

In that post I made absolutely no reference to 'Bielsa Burnout'. That is something YOU introduced into our exchanges, which I have subsequently responded to.

I posted a single link with a very in-depth article to counter your claim that Bielsa burnout is a very real thing. You continue to claim it is not a myth, but offer no supporting evidence other than repeating your own opinion. No problem Steve.

But as you yourself note, a bulk of Bielsa’s managerial experience is with two national teams. Claims that they suffered burnout under Bielsa can be dismissed as the players simply weren't with him long enough to experience it.

In your latest post to me you, in the main, offer little or no evidence of the Bielsa Burnout effect, but rather list his idiosyncrasies in leaving clubs early because he considered promises made weren't kept and being the man of principle that he is, he walked rather than compromise. Another aspect of the man altogether.

You are well versed on the peculiarities of Athletic Club Bilbao and the small player pool they can recruit from. Even with such limitations and a small squad, as my linked article shows, he worked miracles in getting them to the EUFA cup final and Copa Del Rey, where they lost both games heavily. Again, as my linked article shows, it was more the number of games a small squad with little chance of rotation played that season - 65 - that did for them in the end, NOT some systemic failing on Bielsa's methods as you present.

You yourself acknowledge "there's lots of mitigating circumstances around the fact that he struggles to get a full 12 months out of his players in a hard club season."

IMO, that doesn't equate to proof positive that the SOLE reason for this is the 'Bielsa Burnout' as you seem to be contesting.

It is interesting also that you are now quoting former Silva players on how he improved them. I don’t think it is unreasonable to state that based on his time at Everton to date we have yet to see an exponential improvement of any of our individual players, or the team as a whole, under Silva’s stewardship.

Bielsa, by contrast this season, has significantly improved both individuals and the collective of pretty much the same squad as he inherited at Leeds.

I don’t think it is extreme to conclude that one has over-delivered in his first season to date. The other hasn’t.

Thus my original response. The ‘Bielsa Burnout’ claims is a sideshow you introduced, Steve. Not me.

You also keep going on about Bielsa Burnout. It is real. I point as cold hard irrefutable evidence to every single season he has had in European club football and that not once, not once, has he ever finished a season strongly. Sadly, it looks very much like it's happening again at Leeds. I really hope he can get things back on track and get Leeds up.

I say again, I love the guy, I really do, I am a massive fan of his. He's my favourite non-Everton manager. He's the one who inspired me to watch videos on YouTube of every training session he did with Bilbao that was posted up there, I must have sat and watched over 100 videos of him coaching the players, from cameras fixed in the stands, as Kendall points out, Bilbao have about 500 fans watching the training sessions.

Bilbao are a very successful club Jay. Bielsa didn't quite work miracles. They are used to success. They have never ever been relegated. They have won more Spanish Cups than Real Madrid, only Barca have won more. Only the current big 3 in Spain have won more than their 8 La Liga titles. Bielsa took them to 10th and 12th in the League, the season immediately before they were 6th, so he actually dropped them 4 places. They were in the Europa League because of what Joaquín Caparrós did. Immediately after Bielsa left they finished 4th, 7th, 5th, and 7th. This is Bilbao's level. Bilbao fans did not see any miracles. They had some fun with manager who gave them some great memories, but ultimately they are a club who win things, like Everton, and so winning nothing, like Moyes at Everton, is ultimately failure.

I was enthralled at the way Bielsa coaches his team's "spontaneous movement", actually drilling this into them on the training pitch, the phased moves, and how he programs his players to make certain runs without thinking, and how they can pass into certain areas knowing a man will shortly arrive there. Bielsa is open with other managers and coaches, which is why the spying incident and the things written about him in the English press was very sad. He lets other managers come and watch (obviously not his immediate opponents), he helps them and lets them try to understand his thinking. This is why so many copied him, he makes it easy to do so. But football has moved on in the last 8 years or so, others have perfected the pressing game without having the same flaws, they have won things with it, whilst Bielsa has not.

As for Silva not improving players, yes he has. Jordan Pickford is better than last season, he is also better than at Sunderland. Seamus Coleman is better than last season, though probably down to recovery from injury. Michael Keane is much better than last season and is in the best form I've seen from him. If you saw more of him at Burnley and think he was better then, that's for you to argue, but this is the best Michael Keane I've ever seen. This is also the best Kurt Zouma, much better than last season, and even better than before he did his knee. It is also the best Lucas Digne. Silva's biggest transformation is Idrissa Gueye who seems to get better and better with every game, and is pulling skills out of his locker I never knew he had. Andre Gomes is better than he's been for some time, a different player to the raw lad I saw for Benfica, and approaching his form for Valencia, before he had a dip in form. Richarlison was better earlier in the season, but that was the form of his life, and without Silva at the end of last season, he was terrible. So Silva is the one improving him into a Brazilian international. Dominic Calvert-Lewin is better than ever, his all round game is really coming on, and particularly his link up play, he's also scored more goals this season than ever before (in PL at least) and there's still 9 games left.

Silva is making the players better, you wait for next season and you'll see it too. I also see major jumps in Davies' game, but he's not played enough recently to showcase the improvements properly. I predict we're seeing the rebirth of Morgan Schneiderlin and that he will be rehabilitated come the end of the season. Schneiderlin looks happy, big smiles, less sulks, and as there's always been a player in there, perhaps Silva is about to bring him back to his very best.

I thought he was excellent. As I mentioned, I saw one mistake in the RS game.

He protected the back 4, his ball to Seamus against Cardiff was sublime, his passing more than acceptable, his workrate increased to my eyes (still needs to move quicker sometimes after a pass), and he freed up space for Gueye to "be Gueye" and run all over the place and break shit up.

You don't like Schneiderlin. You've commented previously when I praised him. I think we'll agree to disagree.

We agreed on Gana when Gana caught shit from people on TW. We just aren't going to agree on Schneids the last two games. My definition of excellent is in comparison to previous and absolute shit from Morgan, so the use of that word is more in reference to previous performances / percentage increase, if you get my drift.

Plus I'm prone to hyperbole, so there's that.

I'm honestly surprised you don't agree I have to say. I only saw one error - as I said a bad one. Any others weren't near bad enough to register on the "Crowley radar". Insofar as good plays in the derby, he was very tidy and allowed Gana to move around a lot. Good plays like the Coleman pass against Cardiff? No. But we look a lot more balanced with him in the side to me the last two games.

I might have a re-watch and look for specifics.

"Jay, you took me to task on his methods being dated."

Seriously? These are the opening words of my first post to you @ 73, responding to the claims you introduced to the thread about Bielsa @ 53:

"Being a keen student of the game and as someone who has written glowingly of Bielsa, if you haven't done so already I suggest you read and listen to the following article and podcast on the Beeb.

"You might care to review your opinion that he is not the coach he once was and that his methods are extremely dated."

You consider those words as 'taking you to task', Steve? Seriously.

You continue to insist Bielsa's methods are dated. You say that I "cannot respond to that so [I] keep moving the goalposts."

Again Steve, seriously..? A couple of things here:

1) By what, or whose authority, are you claiming Bielsa's methods are dated? Is there a FIFA committee that sits and rules on such things? You yourself acknowledge he has many imitators in the game who modify what he innovated, including THE very best coaches in the world. I am quite sure the man himself modifies his own methods depending on the material he is given to work with: the players.

2) The implication of your claim that his coaching is 'extremely dated' is that it cannot be successful TODAY. As I keep pointing out to you, Leeds are having their best season since relegation from the PL I don't know how many years ago.

From this I conclude the following: even if what you say about Bielsa's coaching being 'extremely dated' is true, how does that explain the undeniable success he is achieving with Leeds this season?

It's a non-sequitur, surely?

If you did but recognize it, you actually acknowledge the same in your last post when you write:

"...his coaching is dated. Doesn't mean he's not a good coach, it just means he's not the pioneer he once was. His ideas are not fresh, but they can still be effective."

Saying he is not the pioneer he once was is a clear 'moving of the goal posts' on your part and a different discussion altogether from the one we've been having, whilst your second clause agrees with one of my original points: Bielsa and his methods are still effective.

As for your charge that I "keep moving the goalposts" in our exchanges in this thread, not true Steve. I've already quoted above the original two points I made to you. In my last post to you I quoted them again to keep you on point, rather than drifting off into side discussions as you clearly do, such as your claims of 'Bielsa Burnout'...but you switch this around to claim that I'M the one 'going on about Bielsa Burnout', when it was YOU that introduced that sub-theme and I simply responded to it, even linking a very well researched piece to challenge what you claim is 'cold hard irrefutable evidence'.

How can it be 'irrefutable evidence' when I present a very well researched and reasoned alternative view to the 'Bielsa Burnout' moniker YOU threw into the discussion?

You do have a tendency to deal in 'absolutes' Steve and don't take kindly to legitimate alternative views.

The driving motivation for you in all this, as it has been all season, is your determination to 'Stand By Your Man', Silva. Admirable on one level. Flawed on another.

Take your latest appendage in your previous post in which you accuse me of stating Silva has not improved players in his time at Everton.

These were my actual words in making a comparison of Silva's and Bielsa's performances this season:

"It is interesting also that you [Steve] are now quoting former Silva players on how he improved them. I don’t think it is unreasonable to state that based on his time at Everton to date we have yet to see an exponential improvement of any of our individual players, or the team as a whole, under Silva’s stewardship.

"Bielsa, by contrast this season, has significantly improved both individuals and the collective of pretty much the same squad as he inherited at Leeds.

"I don’t think it is extreme to conclude that one has over-delivered in his first season to date. The other hasn’t."

Do you consider my words contentious? Radical? False?

It is mischievous (at best) of you to misrepresent my words as out-and-out saying 'Silva has not improved the players at Everton'. I did nothing of the sort.

You compound that distortion by claiming that under Silva:

* "Jordan Pickford is better than last season" (again, seriously???). Last season he was the runaway leader of 3 player-of-the-year awards: fans and players' player of the year, plus the young player of the year. Do you seriously believe his performances are better this season? Do you seriously think he is going to get anywhere near to retaining any of those 3 trophies this season?

I suppose you might Steve, as you keep telling us Jordan is playing to instructions from his manager to stay on his line rather than dominate his penalty area.

* "Seamus Coleman is better than last season, though probably down to recovery from injury". Again, seriously? He has played well since being recalled in the last two games. Before that he was dropped with plenty - and I mean PLENTY - of doubters as to whether he could return to his pre-leg break form and level.

* "Michael Keane is much better than last season." Agreed. But we also now know there were considerable mitigating circumstances (his playing through long term injury) as to why he was so poor last season. His improvement this season could simply be down to being fit to play.

Furthermore, to name Keane and Kurt Zouma as Silva's 'successes' in improving players is quite amusing as, very, very recently (as a way to defend Silva and explain our poor defensive record) you described both as 'shite' at heading.

And it is jaw-dropping that you also list Idrissa Gueye as a 'Silva success story' given post after post after post of scathing dismissal from you of the player all season.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin is better than ever? Disagree. DC-L is a player I like and constantly defend, but I don't think he has kicked on as much this season as last when for a time he was running Pickford close for the young player of the year award.

And yet you accuse me of moving the goal posts..? Right-ho!

Have you retired to Brazil? How can one man have so much time to comment... and in such depth?

Are there no beaches where you are?

He's the only one who can reply to Steve's 300-page essays. Well, stay awake through them.

Do I need to hold a committee to consider the burnout too, or can the facts speak for themselves on that one?

Well done, Steve for focusing on my obvious and deliberate irony re: the FIFA committee, rather than address the many valid counters I make to some of your comments.

Probably unknowingly (again) you now acknowledge your views on Bielsa are 'opinions', rather than 'cold hard irrefutable facts' as you described them in your previous post.

But you can't help yourself and revert to type and yet again confuse what constitutes fact vs opinion on the Bielsa Burnout question at the death.

His are working at the moment... The point is they may not work for everyone every time... neither may Silva's.

When asked what he thought of supporters criticism of him when he was playing for us he said, "I agree with them but I don't need them to make me realise I played poorly. I know it myself and it's up to me to do something about it." Quite so.

And Steve Ferns, don't even think you can educate our man in Brazil on the difference between fact and opinion. Rather like dear Darren, it's impossible.

We know Steve Ferns is an attorney.

Jay Wood, what is it that you do professionally?

Genuinely curious.

The two of you arguing is like watching a courtroom drama made for television.

The two of you will dissect an argument, and all the various points and minutiae, to a level that is barely sustainable by mere mortals.

I have the patience to address 1 to 2 opposing points of view. How you do it is a wonder. I'd lose patience after the third paragraph there or thereabouts.

The next time I'm ever involved in signing a contract of any type, I will literally hire the both of you to go through it and tell me how to proceed. I know you'll cover ever single point and issue.

That's a compliment for the record, not some back-handed bullshit stab. I find your levels of detail incredible.

Courtroom, definitely. Drama? Eh, not so much.

ToffeeWeb is getting very high-end! 😜

Total aside, I'm currently in Madrid which is in a near state of shock about Real – I can't find many Athletico fans but the Barcelona fans are enjoying it a bit.

This is more to my liking:

Court Room Drama

I’m going on Netflix ;)

Previous occasions mentioned, like the Fiorentina game and the never to be forgotten Bayern night, will stay with us forever. I also have a special place in my heart for the Saturday afternoon in late March 1970, when we took on a fine Chelsea side on the run-in to the title. Nerves were jangling before kick-off, but calmed after 14 seconds as Howard Kendall scored from the kick-off. 3 minutes later Bally nodded a second, and pandemonium ensued.

We won 5-2, then most of the crowd stayed behind to find out how Leeds had got on. The stadium announcer finally piped up “And now for the result you have all been waiting for – Cambridge have won the Boat Race”. Some rude words emanated before they were replaced by a mighty roar as the score “Leeds 1 Southampton 3” came out.

If and when we leave Goodison, it will be a tough day, and the souls of many departed will be joining us for it.

Gentlemen, my paternal Grandma's maiden name was Hannah Crowley of Cork and my maternal Grandfather was Sydney Keating of Cork. Both families lived in Leadenhall Street, Everton. Are we related?

I'm Keith Young, Everton shareholder and Evertonian since 1948.

Our Crowleys have been over in America since the very late 1800s.

My Great, Great Grandfather, Joseph Crowley, left County Cork for America via Liverpool, England and landed in the 1890s I believe.

We've been over so long that, if you and I are related, it's very distant, friend.

And to get this onto a relevant football theme imagine him in the changing rooms, I suppose I just answered my own question as I have now remembered Pacino's famous speech in Any Given Sunday, was it?

if you could post that link Laurie we could send both as a motivational tool before the Newcastle game to the club in case the team have slipped back into their comatose state.

Any given Sunday Speech

It made me wonder what Marco Silva’s style is when he talks to the players before the game.

Many have called for forbearance in his methods to bear fruit. Yet he hasn't shown any patience at all. Gone all out hung-ho, mistakenly writing off players before he has time to change the personnel.

Time will tell, but his tactical intransigence might well see him booted out.

Like someone brilliantly said on this site Everton always win the game after the game they should have won, and Martinez btw.

Our direct descendant Henry Keating came over to Everton from Dublin about 1839. No Sydney's in that line since then.

Maybe Henry had other brothers but we can't trace records prior to Henry on our line.

A young Roger Kenyon had replaced Labby and Peter Osgood in the second half decided to try to nobble the sprog by slyly kicking hell out of Roger's shins and ankles as a corner was to be taken from the Church corner. Before the corner arrived a little delay was caused by Osgood having to be carried off on a stretcher!

Roger took no prisoners, ever. An acquaintance of mine who played pro football in his time told me, not realising I was a Toffee, that Kenyon was the hardest player he'd ever played against and – given that he'd played against Hunter, Smith, Harris and the like – that's some, erm, accolade.

Epic words, ma8, and truly inspirational.

We breathe, eat and that’s what this club means. It’s immortal and does in my view carry our destinies in life’s adventure. Only The Best Is Good Enough

What ever, where ever, as a club, we are, you know with Evertonians, your in good company, as football supporters.

That’s there with the Epochs and Poets, of ages, that’s pure Evertonian, best by far.

Onwards and Upwards, Evertonians!

In my time a Golden month, we done Manure home and old League Cup at OT, and the RS, that was special.

We’ve never got close in modern times, but fixtures now are different.

Anfield Road, Into the Kemlyn Road and at least, half the Kop, we did steal back our old ground that day, as we did a few times, in the 80s and when got blatantly robbed In the injury time Wayne Clark’e header into the Anfield Road goal.

And Shaggys winner League Cup winner, very close to full time, may be 5 mins, from the end, 25 yard daisy cutter, into the corner of the Clowns goal, into the Kop, for above par at that time, in 10/1987

Yes at that time we were better, than them. Happy, happy days, and life changes, and then, where has time gone?

The greatest days, home and away, and always a good laugh.

Now to remix the mortar of our great club and build a solid foundation for the future.

We all have given, all and more than humanly possible for the EFC, cause, and now for the resurrection, in football terms, of EFC.

Please..