Silva charged by the FA

He gets criticised here for seeming emotionless as he stands at the touchline, so good to see some passion and evidence of that other great wish from some ToffeeWebbers, being narky and getting in the ref's face.

Should have been given a bonus rather than being charged (and likely fined) because the officiating was really fishy, er sorry, rank awful.

As per Kev, it's good to hear he has some real emotion!

The players do not protest even nearly enough!

I forgive the Portuguese for the salted cod, but the deep fried pig's ears? I was served a small plate of them on a business trip in 2003 and I am still chewing!!

Players and coaches are somewhat accountable... some less than others, eh, Klipperty...

The real point is that referees are not accountable. It's no surprise that referees from the Premier League never got a look in at the World Cup.

The Man Utd - PSG VAR penalty doesn't fill me with hope that it will help things in a positive way. And the 'silhouette' bollocks will just replace one form of vague with another.

'A Coach' – "Just thrash into the box lads, see if you can hit an arm or something, then work the ref, appeal like an old-style Aussie team in The Ashes."

I did consider not renewing my season ticket because of the reffing standard, but I have done in the end as it's still slightly better than shopping with the Mrs.

Now smart attackers will practice aiming at defenders arms to get a certain penalty.

Silva, shows no emotion, and should just take a few threads from ToffeeWeb to prove his innocence (honest!) but you can't ask impotent refs why they make such poor decisions when you have just made the biggest cock-up yourself, Marco. But it wouldn't surprise me to see our manager banned and Mason given another Premier League game this weekend?

My only real concern is can our manager learn?

I do find the FA totally arrogant, the winning goal was embarrassing, with 4 or 5 players offside. Why aren't match officials held to account, after major blunders and made stand down for a number of matches.

VAR will make a huge difference, but the FA should take a look at Rugby Union, where the referees are so professional, and explain decisions to the respective captains, instead of waving them away with total arrogance.

The decisions seem to be getting worse in general. Can anyone honestly say we would get an offside decision reversed like Man City did last weekend? The one that always sticks in my mind is the Rodwell sending off. Even after all these years.

These refs need to be held to account; mind you, so does Silva!

I don't think we can feel that hard done by though – Pickford should have been sent off for his rugby tackle.

Now, after years of watching from afar, I've no doubt in my mind that bias is latent, but very real.

How many coaches pull this garbage every game, yet ours gets fined?

It's a joke.

Kev Jones @1 I agree it's at least gratifying to see Marco get fired up about something. I've been critical of his demeanor on the touchline and his lack of emotion, so it's good to my eyes he's letting go a bit.

Christy @ 17 I think you hit the cause of the "outburst" in your first paragraph perfectly.

You can't blame him; after a result like that he was understandably very upset (like we were), and he did exactly what we would have liked to do.

I hope he told Lee Mason he looks like a cross between Mr Rumbold from ‘Are You Being Served?' and Humpty Dumpty, with the word ‘kuntz' thrown in somewhere.

Second half I actually thought ref was okay, more balanced – it was his linesman who was shocking.

I reckon it's about who is your coach and for many seasons now the refs haven't cared nor been reproached for these errors. Interesting that these mistakes seemed to stop under Allardyce who has been around for years but have plagued Silva and Martinez before him because officials didn't respect them perhaps?

That explains why for years they wouldn't dare go against SAF or Wenger over 50/50 decisions with opponents.

They might have got the cheating fucker to send them off but then I'm sure this would have given the ref some explaining to do, which would be a miracle in itself, when you consider Everton had to contest the Rodwell decision rather than the ref just holding up his hand to say he'd got one wrong.

What is more concerning is how we address this fragile confidence issue which goes back to the days of Moyes and probably beyond (can't remember that far back). If we are winning and concede, we generally fall apart, it's been the case for a very long time.

In all honesty, I don't think it helps with FIFA changing and reinterpreting rules at what seems at least every other season in the misguided belief that they are improving the game.

I don't think I've ever seen this fella have a decent game. How the fuck did he miss that challenge on Digne? ... stone-wall penalty. It's beyond belief that he and Mr Magoo on the lines missed all those players offside.

Silva deserves to be charged, but Mason wants locking up... and If he'd have done his job and sent Pickford off, it probably would have done us a favour! :)

I would have liked to see him come out after the derby game and highlight some parts of Atkinson's performance. There was plenty he could and should have said.

Not only was Atkinson blatant in his bias during the game he was also incredibly subtle and three almost identical incidents highlight this for me.

The last-gasp tackles by Keane and Digne in the second half saw the ball go out for corners to them. In both incidents, after they played the ball, our lads were caught by their opponents. Not much in it but both were hit after they played the ball.

Contrast that with late in the game, when the momentum was building our way, one of them (no idea which one, some cretin in red) put the ball out for a corner and Tosun caught him as he tried to shoot. Atkinson immediately blows for a foul and avoids them having to defend a corner.

Almost identical incidents but each one with an outcome that favoured the media favourites. To sum up, the ref the week before was dreadful, but no mention of it but, after balling up a two-nil lead, it just looks like a pathetic attempt at deflection.

Yet they are thought of as the enemy, demonized before a ball is kicked, and judged on past performance. As VAR comes around the corner, everybody, including myself, now acts as if VAR was in operation. The guys are on a lose-lose. The objectivity simply isn't there because most people don't want it to be. As a fan, I get that. There's nothing in it to defend or praise an official.

As long as they are seen as second class beings in the game, nothing will change. There still is so much contempt towards them but, hey, most of us have never a walked one foot in their day. If there is debate to be had, then it's the rules and laws.

Technology is good, it's there to support but not replace humans. But the thing is, the laws are not fit for the modern game. However much we resist, "They've been great for 100 years" etc – why change them?

The referee makes any subjective decision based on the tenor of each game, then you are asking them to apply the text book version when you use technology. They simply don't marry up.

Handball, advantage, dissent, unsportsmanlike conduct are just few of the items that need to change. Penalties & personal penalties (very different) need to evolve to make the players understand it affects the team and not them. The outrage then is directed inwardly towards a teammate and discipline becomes self-monitored.

Until these issues are addressed, even though from time to time I lose it with an official, I feel no-one is listening to what they need to make it better for everyone.

I'd argue ‘bias' is a hugely emotive word and one that cannot be proven. I understand when a large number of decisions go against one team, the response is raw and often extreme. I've been there myself. It's a very subjective judgement, there's often a rational reason why but we rarely stop to think in those terms.

Moreover, never have I thought a referee is 'biased'. It's hard enough to do your best without adding the matrix of building key decisions against one team. That would make an official, well just super-human to be able to carry it off. In fact, you'd be amazed how little they care who is playing etc. Officials are concerned with their integrity first and foremost.

Mistakes, however poor, on reflection, are just that. Officials need a high profile, visible advocate who counters the crap thrown at them, crap they are just meant to take and be above responding to. The game needs to revise its culture and take issue with lack of respect in the game shown to officials at the top level. It's absolutely abhorrent.

My belief is the laws or rules have neutered officials to the point where they have few tools to manage and proportionally deal with the issues on the field.

I agree that refereeing is a very hard job to do, especially now with dozens of camera's reviewing every decision, two seconds after you have made it.

I also agree there are plenty of honest mistakes made, but a decent percentage of decisions are pure guesswork, added to the undeniable favourable ones given to certain teams usually in the top six. But finally, I would say, if you can't prove bias, John, you can certainly see it.

I do agree with many of your points about how difficult it is for referees and they need help.

I would disagree with you about bias though. It's (in my opinion) very clear to see when the current top six clubs play against clubs outside this group.

There are many examples of essentially the same incidents been given for one club and not their opponent. Far too many to highlight or even attempt to!

I don't know whether the Clattenburg derby comes under cheating, incompetence, or bias but I'd certainly not be able to class his performance as 'honest mistakes' from the referee.

Let's take the incident with Man Utd last week as an example. Anyone of the so-called top six are playing a top outside of this so-called select group. So, for example, Everton v Liverpool. The score is 0-0 or 2-1 for Liverpool. We have a shot which deflects off a Liverpool defender's arm and goes behind for a corner. The referee gets word in his ear to look at the pitch-side screen for a possible penalty. He could easily decide no penalty or, looking at it from a Liverpool perspective, could decide a penalty is the outcome for them.

So, even with VAR, it will still be possible for a referee to show bias towards the so-called top-six clubs.

Oh yes, I forgot, it does not apply to Klopp getting a touchline ban.

Atkinson has been reffing for years, and having all this experience, would make it easy to carry out an agenda, is how I see this man.

28 minutes for a free kick against Liverpool, although because he's not biased, he did over-rule his linesman to give us a throw-in before we got our first foul.

He's not alone though and anyone who tells me some refs aren't personal, would honestly never be able to convince me otherwise, because I see it happen on a regular basis, with some refs even changing their decisions weekly, depending on the player and the team.

If we import the top foreign players to our Premier League, why can't the FA import good foreign referees? A 0.25% tax on players' salary would fund a good wage for the professional referees – maybe even have two on the pitch like in the NRL. I bet the standard would rise then.

The only way to stamp out such things is immediate summary dismissal of the linesman. No wonder Silva was upset – he could conceivably lose his job at the end of the season on the basis of the inability of the linesman to do the most basic part of his job.

Typical of the corrupt FA to charge someone who highlights gross incompetence rather than dealing with the real issue.

However, I strongly agree with your take that rugby standards should be applied to footy when it comes to dissent. It would have shortened my playing career dramatically – at 62 I still pick up yellows for arguing calls (got one last season for a mistaken penalty), but, as a longtime ref, I think it would make the game a whole lot more welcoming for young referees, and I applaud your idea.

So there are some applications in which VAR is working perfectly. It has a ways to go, but I have no doubt it will soon be integral to the game. As it should.

A referee has to make somewhere between 200-400 decisions in a game some are obvious and some are made in the head in the form of a non decision. You've pinpointed a handful of calls in the Derby, one specifically and concluded he is biased?

Personally, he had a fair game, nothing to grumble about. So he got the vast majority right and didn't err on what if any major incidents there were. Big picture, a decent game from him.

Are we as a group still hanging on to a past performance and using that to measure him by? Maybe, it was a poor call to send Rodwell off. But each performance should stand on its own as no two games are the same.

But... then again, you might be right! 😛

While we all know Newcastle's winning goal was clearly offside, does anybody else think their equaliser was also offside? I watched the Sky highlights yesterday, and for me, when the shot was struck (which Pickford only parried out), Perez, who followed in, appeared to be just offside. VAR with all their lines across the pitch might well have ruled that goal offside as well.

Everyone makes mistakes, the Rodwell one, only really got to me because Everton had to appeal that decision, where I think, if the ref had any moral decency, he could have just come out and apologised, for getting a decision badly wrong?

The semi-final at Man City was worse, same ref, an even worse decision, with Jagielka telling us how arrogantly smug, Martin Atkinson really is. But I think I'd already made my mind up well before then anyway though.

It will help dramatically with dissent, & unsportsmanlike conduct which I alluded to before. At the moment, referees are reluctant to give players a second yellow, especially if it falls into the categories above. Obviously the punishment is expulsion, so it seems churlish. If they had wider measures in game, the conduct could and would be managed better.

Leading 2-1 with minutes left would you kick the ball away if you knew a second yellow gets you binned? Your teammates would go mental at you.

The self-pass, allowing the player to dribble the ball from a free-kick. It allows play to restart quickly and concentrates the players mind, far less to challenge a call when the player is already off with the ball. Coaches rapidly instill the need for discipline as not doing so often will result in a goal.

Just some measures that will transfer the responsibility to the players and away from the official. I repeat my original post – the laws aren't in step with modern football.

ps: Mike, I love watching Oblak. What's he worth? I think he's the best in the world atm.

The guys that have helped me and mentored me have always told me to own the errors. Players in the main get an explanation of what I saw, that doesn't preclude me from being wrong, it's non-confrontational and a better human interaction. As long as the tail doesn't wag the dog and they try and manipulate things, it goes down well.

Players and referees should spend time together post game. They should get time to talk about it. It humanizes both parties, it resets the system so you don't think next time ‘Oh fuck not this fella'.

If anyone's watching Atletico vs Juve, Kuipers is having a brilliant game. Up the man in the middle!

People on this forum will remember Uriah Renny, and how've he got demoted to the Championship.

That must be at least 12-15 years ago, so surely the arseholes at the FA can bring the management of the game into parity; standards have worsened.

The Managers and Players Union should take this issue up high. Mason should be sacked and wouldn't see out 10 minutes on the Old Saturday Leagues, and why should he not get fined or taken away for proper Referee coaching?

The game in this country will never be what it was and has changed in some aspects for better but overall for me, it's got worse in view of entertainment, mass media coverage, killing Saturday football, and arseholes like Mason ruining games, and after a Toon Saturday, if the FA take no action, there's no hope.

With the vast amount of on tap, default funds the FA has, they in my view have lost all connectivity with the heart and soul of the English game, the supporters.

It does make many fixtures become farcical so Messrs Atkinson, Mason etc are naps for dodgy results.

EFC is in the doldrums of football, and that's a fact, but these officials get away with murder every week. Clattenburg was poor, but these lot make him look good. Something is wrong, but let's not make excuses for the rank performances this season.

A long hard road ahead, unless some miracles happen this summer.

Make sure you ask for his autograph lads. Don't get star struck! 😂

I do think some refs pander to the big boys or the home team and dregs like Moss, Mason and Atkinson may be the worst offenders, closely followed by Dean.

They may well have grievances but their job is hard and they know that if they upset the Sky Six their mistakes will be magnified.

However, it is ridiculously difficult and although VAR will cut out the really big errors, some decisions will still be down to interpretation – and humans have a habit of getting things wrong!

Also remember Poll disallowing the Hutchinson goal, he said time was up, even though there was 30 seconds left. He admitted years later he was wrong.

I watched United at PSG, and before the controversy I thought that ref had also had a great game John, which had me thinking that something was wrong with English football, and maybe it has gone a bit soft?

It hasn't really, it's just over-analysed by too many phoney's making a fortune, and putting even more pressure on these refs, but again that's just my opinion of course!

If the ref is good, then this Ronaldo is just unbelievable. He might be theatrical, no he is theatrical, but what a player – already talented, but his application and dedication have definitely made him one of the greats.

The over-analyzing is a very pertinent point. The pundits get a free swing at the calls, but there's no-one to defend or help as the officials have to keep quiet. They deffo need an advocate or voice, it would help enormously in the debate.

CR7 over Messi for me, just a beast!

Moshiri and Usmanov, then... yes.

Moshiri and Kenwright? Definitely a No!

Remember him giving three yellow cards to the Croatian in the 2006 World Cup? That's Graeme fucken Poll for yer!

Imagine asking Martin Atkinson for his autograph? But that's the way the game has definitely gone, though, because they always used to say the ref was only good when you didn't notice him!

I came into this flying pretty blind. The education I've received on these pages, in a multitude of subjects, is worthy of a doctorate from any university on earth.

It did take a while to recognize any bias towards Everton / Scousers because frankly I was suspicious of the notion.

This whole bias discussion is an interesting one.

I think the league as a whole can absolutely be biased, and is, against teams "from the north" and especially Everton. This fine against Marco, coupled with the fine against Niasse, is absurd. That type of shit happens every single week in the Premier League. Fining us absolutely smacks of a condescending attitude to me, as well as an agenda. Someone brought up Wenger as an example of the double standard, and that's spot on. Team in London, with a whining, bitching manager in the extreme, and I can't recall him being fined? Not for something like Marco did post-Newcastle at any rate.

Individual refs can absolutely be biased. There were a few coaches I detested. I never gave their teams any benefit of the doubt. I know professional refs are supposed to be more professional than that, but they're human...

I can only remember two incidents when a ref has apologised for a wrong decision. One for not playing advantage and disallowing what would have been a record-equalling 5th goal for Louis Saha against Blackpool.

The other the Yak v West Ham I think wrongly chalked off for offside which meant we drew the Game instead of winning.

Are refs biased? Phil Neville noticed the difference after his move from Man Utd, and publicly stated the top teams were favoured.

This week's Ref Watch showed Pickford's rugby tackle, Zouma's tackle, and the Sigurdsson penalty shout. Strangely neither the "winning goal" nor the Digne Penalty featured.

I genuinely thought Pochettinho was Portuguese so now I'll eat humble pie... Still tastes better than Baccala.

However, the teams in RU are also disciplined so that only the Captains protest to the Ref and the Ref only explains himself to the Captains.

In football the Ref is usually surrounded by a howling, baying mob of players from both sides, over any controversial decision and has no opportunity to talk sensibly to the two Captains, to explain his decision - hence the "arrogant" waving away of all protests.

He gave his decision and ran away, waiting for the free-kick to be taken, I don't say he never made a mistake but he was very, very good.

It's very rare you hear any football refs speak, they just call players towards them, take out a card, and brandish it in the air, which is something I'm sure some of them practice in the mirror!

So if like Rugby, the ref called over the captain, and explained his decision properly, then I'm sure most of these bad decisions would go out the window right away?

It's easy waving people away, in an arrogant manner, but to have to stand there in front of the camera, (if the game is live on tv) and explain your decision, I'm convinced the standards across the board might just go up rapidly? Great point that Terry, mate.

If we could take the game of football and transfer it to the environment of rugby we'd be sorted.

Also good are NFL games where after a foul the chief referee announces the foul called and the penalty awarded to the crowd. As far as I can see, they hardly ever make wrong calls, although I don't know much about that sport.

Defending is as much of an art as is attacking but defenders now have to contend with people standing behind them and apparently not offside if they don't move towards the ball – it's ludicrous and open to interpretation.

Let's return to the old way – offside is offside no matter what the player(s) in question is / are doing. It will help VAR get it right too.

Like you said why not return to the old way, football is not that complicated a game, so why make it so, by changing rules, to suit who exactly?

Add in the balls that's swerve all over the place with the offside and I don't see why they just don't get rid of the 'keepers and make the goals bigger.

Even under the old offside rule, you were not considered offside if you were not interfering with play, which FIFA in their wisdom decided was not until you played the ball, regardless of how close to you it passed, it was still a matter of some disagreement as along with your statement a lot believed if you were offside then you were interfering.

Similarly, in the FA Cup Final, Wolves v Blackburn 1960(?), old peg leg Whelan claimed one of the goals should have been disallowed as he was behind the goal line and therefore not on the field of play so there wasn't 2 players between the scorer and the goal. The Ref ruled he didn't have permission to leave the field, therefore he was still on it.
A cause of some magnificent discussions and apparently still is.

We like to think of football as a fast game. It's not really. So many breaks, tiny delays, substitutes and mechanics which break the rhythm.

You want a game which is controlled but continuous. Any free kick in the game is often contested ie challenged, a player then stands in front of the taker delaying the game, often to the point the player to restart play quickly has to kick it sideways.

People throwing/kicking the ball away to delay the game. The dissent is there to delay too. Substitutes stop the game, instead of rolling subs who needs to check? And the idiots cannot count beyond 11 then they should be penalized.

Develop laws and penalties which penalize those horrible antics to keep the game flowing. A faster continuous game reduces dissent and poor behavior instantly.

In rugby and hockey if you even dare to challenge the referee the game has already restarted, any attempts to stop or break it down is punished by the laws of the game. In RU standout of position you will quickly find yourself conceding a kick at goal or in the bin. Hockey very similarly cracks down on severely on players stopping play deliberately. Referees are often taught to move away and restart rather than stand there and let players coalesce around you, it stops swarming.

Anyway back to Marco out!

If we can have var for reviews of the decisions, about football then use var to review the officials.

They get it wrong it hurts us for sure & it goes for us. I don't see you praising an official when they have a great game? Why because you want like all of us to use them as mitigation. It's gotcha punditry!

I bet if the Lino had got it right on Saturday they would have still scored another .

There is barely a poster who wouldn't disagree we deserved to lose that game. Where's your thank-you card to Mason for not sending Pickford off?

What area of life are you expected to be ‘that' perfect? The team is far from it so why expect an official to be? They regularly get over 90% of outcomes correct and one key decision incorrect. So yes they need support. But let's focus on the wrong end of the telescope. It's easy to scream and shout and narrow the field of view to a gotcha moment, I do it too. But it's worth looking at things from another perspective fuck'nell Ref!

You can't go to ground, it just gives the cheats more scope, and people in the studio, more chance to criticise, even though deep down, they all know the attacker is really cheating.

Maybe you're on to something though. Aussie Rules Football style where there are posts outside the main posts, might make it more interesting. It means if you miss you get a consolation point (if you get the kick between the central sticks it's 6 points). Ha! Ha!

In AFL, if you don't immediately return the ball to your opponent on free kicks or step inside the "mark" then the kick is moved 50 metres downfield and if you back chat to "Sir" in Union then it too is marched forward. I think something like that was trialed in Non-League football but was scrapped as Continental referees claimed they didn't know how far forward it should be moved. FIFA got round this by giving Refs a can of shaving cream which meant that they waste the time that allows defenders to reorganize.

However, we don't want to get to the point of Rugby League where the scrum pack just stand there while the scrum half throws it through the legs of his own pack then runs round to collect it. After all, a fine mess has already been made of tackling which now is not far short of only being acceptable if you stay on your feet and don't touch your opponent.

Rather than put two additional posts outside the goal posts, I suppose we could extend the height of the posts and put a second net there for the consolation point??

Only jesting of course 'cos I see my grandchildren at school receiving trophies for losing. Makes me wonder if some of our players were brought up in this environment????

Let's not borrow too much from the AFL. Next weekend in Round 1 my team, Western Bulldogs, will be wearing a Thor-inspired jersey at the newly renamed ‘Marvel Stadium'.

Is nothing sacred?!

Phil(#93); That's not you sat next to Julia is it? Certainly have to pull the elbows in.

Even if he did use the expression “My bad”... could you imagine any of the onanists who referee Premier League football having the humility to do this?