My viewing of Howard's Way

Good article. I always look out for your posts because my Auntie says you're a proper Blue.

I agree regarding the Philip Carter point. I was only 6 when it happened but history shows it was a severe punishment for an entire League not the club's fans who were culpable.

I know there was a hooligan problem on the continent from British fans but it wasn't one way. It felt like the English teams conceding their domination of Europe which eventually led to them needing a new way of re-branding with the Premier League and then reducing the amount of clubs in it.

If just our neighbours had rightly been banned, it would have sent the message. Clubs like Everton and Spurs – both who lost out in the first season of being banned I believe – would have been given the opportunity to sort out any hooliganism in-house or might have played behind closed doors.

But our board just lay down and took it.

That Howard Kendall won the league in 87 with an injury-hit squad containing the likes of Paul Power and Wayne Clarke was his greatest achievement in my opinion.

Which goes onto the fact it was very frustrating that they were never given the opportunity to push on and fulfil their even greater potential. Need to dance carefully here as that is the source of the bitterness we get labelled with that materialised in the 90s as we declined. As the theatre production alludes to "bitter, twisted & proud" is a sentiment I relate to as being bitter with reason, twisted with a cause & always proud; you cannot underestimate the impact the events of English hooliganism had on our fortunes.

Yes, there were subsequent bad decisions that were Everton Football Club ones that meant we never capitalised on our success, but just as we were in our prime, we were cut down by forces outside of our control and ironically, our red cousins were at the centre of that. Let's not dwell, as the Kopites can't see past the end of their own noses ("always outraged, never embarrassed" springs to mind).

I agree as well, hooliganism wasn't just restricted to England or the UK; it was a European disease and if I recall, the Dutch in particular were notorious. I suppose this goes back to European institutions having a bias against the UK for reasons I don't understand considering the UK has literally given blood for that continent on many an occasion. We see that politically now, but again, that's another debate.

Finally, the '87 team; I totally agree, this was arguably a bigger achievement by Howard as a manager given the injury challenges he was dealt and the patched-up squad that not only got us through that season, but gave us our 2nd league title in 3 seasons. But for me, the first 11 that romped to the title in 84-85 were on a par with the best we've seen. They simply didn't know how to lose.

Totally get your Animal Farm point but, as I am too young to remember Hatton, I would be interested to hear more about what he got up to, thus giving me context.

Yes, create jobs... but 5 binmen per wagon when only 3 are required (for example) is not sustainable or economically viable over time. And then his councillors infamously hiring black taxis to distribute leaflets: great use of public funds.

Forget party politics, "Degsy" was and is a poster boy socialist; "Do what I say, not what I do" springs to mind as he led a totally different & privileged life to those he preached to.

Anyway, you asked. but I go back to my original point. From a footballing perspective, what a great time to be an Evertonian and so glad to have lived it.

I guess you just can't escape talking about the city of Liverpool in the 80s without referring to politics as the film implies. Future generations will likely say the same about now!

It's also refreshing to see you put the blame squarely on the club for letting things drift after Heysel. Yes, it was unfair that we didn't get to compete in the European Cup but it was entirely the clubs fault for not building for when we got back into European competition.

As a side issue, looking at previous comments about how unfair the ban was, it was inevitable in my opinion. I was 19 when we first won the league in 85, and I do remember how bad the hooliganism was. Yes, England wasn't the only place to bring hooliganism to the table but England was directly responsible for bringing it in the first place.

The hooliganism in Europe was Europe saying you're not going to take the piss any longer. We are going to fight back and in some instances get our retaliation in first. After Heysel, although we all felt the ban was really harsh, nobody was overly surprised. It was long overdue.

Every week there was mobs rampaging all through England and Liverpool, Mancs, Spurs, West Ham etc had all rampaged through Europe, kicking the living daylights out of people and completely looting all the clothes shops. That's not even mentioning the national team. Everton fans weren't beyond reproach either. I know loads used to go with RS fans abroad to get in on the robbing of shops.

So when Heysel happened, whilst we all thought it was harsh on us, nobody was really surprised at the sanctions. The English were the scum of Europe at the time.

I couldn't agree more about Tim Cahill, a man who would command respect in any dressing room on earth and who has vast experience of football worldwide.

I was 27 when we won the (then) old Division One Championship in 87, I recall we played Luton Town at home in the final game and the ground wasn't full? I think I was in the old Family Enclosure. It was indicative of the malaise which had affected football in England post-Heysel, but in no way diminishes what a very good side that "jumbled together" 1987 side were. A curious mix of old crocks, young bucks and good seasoned pros, extremely well-motivated and well-coached.

As for Derek Hatton and the Militant crowd, I had no dealings with him, but did work for LCC at that time, and Hatton's acolytes – the likes of George Knibb – used to regularly do the rounds of local offices and residents meetings trying to directly interfere with the work of Council officers, sometimes contradicting the decisions based on the Council's own policies. Never before or since have I seen such direct and deliberate activity by elected councillors, but I guess it did show some sort of leadership!

As for Hatton, he was another self serving “ socialist “ but he had charisma for some and was a good orator. Just like Hitler.

At the end of the 85 season, we allowed the main playing reason for our reanaissance to leave, Andy Gray. What I would have given to bring him on in the 86 season as sub at Forest or Oxford away, or in the final when we needed a lift.

The next brainwave was to let the best goalscorer in England leave after netting 41 times for us. Just one season? The year he was with us we totalled 86 points, but finished runners up by 2 points, and some Blues blamed him? The following year 1987 we also got 86 points. 9 points clear. Champions.

Then, massive clanger number 3, the one that was truly unforgivable, Howard allowed to leave, to manage a mid-table Spanish club. Can still see our then chairman saying that we had now matched the financial offer from Atletico, 𧴵,000 a year. Too late. Howard had given his word. I was truly gutted when these 3 things happened. Still am.

And that was us. Finished. One trophy in 33 years, ripped off trying to replace Lineker with Cottee (no comparison), becoming so desperate we made a man who was happy at the '86 and '89 finals our chairman, and him then having to sell Ferguson to Newcastle for ٦ million behind the managers back to appease the bank because of the debt he had put on the club...

I could go on but I would sooner look forward to cheering myself up at the Harry Catterick night tomorrow, reliving the Everton I was brought up on.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.

And all Blues should hate the other lot for many reasons – not least stopping one of our greatest teams in its tracks. (Justice For The '85!)

Though am I correct in remembering that less Liverpool players jumped ship than ours? If any... plus our manager. It could only happen to Everton.

Would Lineker have left had he had the opportunity to play what we now term Champion's League football with Everton? And would Howard have left so soon and at a time he had built one of the best teams in Europe if he had the opportunity to test himself against Europe's best with that Everton team?

If my ageing memory recalls, I believe he cited something along those lines at the time (sorry, I've not researched so am "shooting from the keyboard" so to speak!!).

I also agree with a lot of what's been said above on both sides. Yes, it was an English / British disease that spread to Europe, and yes, it was dreadful to experience. However, no other nation would have accepted a total ban on all clubs over what was ultimately one incident, albeit a culmination of years of hooliganism.

Arguably it was an understandable reaction to a terrible tragedy at a time when the authorities and fans alike were fed up with the problem. But maybe making an example of Liverpool alone would have been a wake-up call to those clubs who were infamous for their "firms" and an incentive for them and English football in general to clean up their act. I didn't and still don't see a reason why everyone got punished. A singular ban could have been a serious deterrent leading to the same outcome of eradicating the problem & improving football.

On the Everton thing. To echo the sentiment above, I don't own a pair of blue-tinted spectacles either, but I don't ever recall us being like a Chelsea, West Ham, Millwall or Leeds. Yes, we could go toe to toe and stand our ground if provoked but I don't recall us being one of the firms that went looking for trouble (in the main). Maybe I wasn't part of that but I didn't see it like that.

We have always been a selling club if the money is right. Sad but true. Rooney, Stones, Lukaku etc – apart from a brief stand re the Stones transfer to Chelsea, we've given in to the pound sign.

Somebody once said on these pages "We don't do dynasties." The 80s decline was just another example.

Yes that season at the time we wouldn't have qualified for what is now the Champion's League, but we'd have been a team / club that could genuinely have offered that potential to both existing players & prospective signings for the foreseeable had it been available.

That's the football purist in me, but I wouldn't for one minute dismiss other aspects of poor management at the club, so you are right; there were, of course, many factors but this was, at the time, a big contributing one.

I said early on (not on this article!), the European ban aside, Everton never caught onto modern football as it transitioned into the Premier League era and rested on our laurels as one of the then big 5. We didn't invest and that is evident now in our mentality & stadium. It said it all when our only addition to the 87 title winning squad was Ian Wilson (yes who?!!). If you stand still, you're walking backwards right?

To be honest, it could be a city thing as our red cousins only got away with it because of the global standing they generated, in my opinion. It wasn't too long ago they were also competing for 6th / 7th / 8th for a short period and were not too far away from the financial abyss themselves (on the steps of the courthouse for winding up I understand). I have family who worked for them (still do) for decades, and they were seriously lagging behind United & the London clubs in terms of how they run themselves as a business. They too rested on their laurels to a degree but nowhere near as much as we have.

He knew he wasn't wanted. He's also intelligent and embraced Spanish life, learning the language sufficiently well to conduct interviews in Spanish. He also enjoyed his adventure in Spain. Not your average Brit abroad in the eighties?

Your post though is on the money in your other observations.

You're right, it was undoubtedly a business / financial decision at the time. If we had the bounty of European football on the financial forecast, would we have thought different about selling off prize assets to balance the books or make profit?

We can only guess and our behaviour since would suggest not, but had we continued in the vein we had done, enabled by European success, would we have grown into a different club? Hypothetical, I appreciate... and something that wrangles with me to this day!!

I mentioned earlier that I am still pissed off that everyone capitulated instead of fighting the ban. Although the public outcry from the country who don't follow football would have been deafening.

I wholeheartedly agree on both Hatton and Sir Philip Carter. For me,the sale of Lineker by Carter said everything about the man, long before we had Sky or radio programmes dedicated to football. I remember Carter being interviewed on the radio and the reporter interviewing Carter said "The rumour going round is you have sold Lineker to Barcelona." Carter replied that he could categorically deny that Lineker had been sold to Barcelona.

Then minutes later the same radio programme had an interview with Linekers father who ran a fruit and veg stall on Leicester market. He was asked could he confirm the rumour that Gary had signed for Barcelona, to which he said yes Gary has signed for Barcelona, which was confirmed some hours later.

I haven't had a chance to see the film, but I can imagine it must have been terrific listening to the players talk about being in a great Everton team. I was lucky enough to be at the players banquet after beating Watford in the FA Cup and those guys played hard and also knew how to enjoy their success.

I was also lucky enough to bump into Peter Reid when both our Grandsons played in a 5-a-side game in Manchester. I spent a whole hour just reminiscing with Peter about those days I was in heaven.

I know some posters have suggested past Blues to take over at some point in the future, Cahill and Arteta being well supported. But, for me, there is only one stand out candidate, and his playing career was on a different level than either Cahill or Arteta. For me, it has to be Wayne Rooney.

He played under some of the best managers around Ferguson, Van Gall, Capello. He also became England's leading scorer as well as being a Champions League winner and a Premier League winner. I know many will say he hasn't managed anyone but Lampard only had a season at Derby and Gerrard no experience of management before taking over at Rangers, and both have done well. But, for me, Rooney has a better footballing brain than both of these.

Gerrard and Lampard are doing well, as you say, but also remember Derby County were a success last season – look where they are now. Rangers are a threat again to Celtic also.

Your claim about Rooney is a big one, time will tell.

The run in the Cup Winners Cup, I went every game, and, although there may have been some naughtiness I can't recall seeing anything amiss.

Everywhere we went, we had a great time. I don't think we went to any of the centres, we just got an ale house a bit out of the way, had a good drink with the locals and ended up getting them becoming Blues!

Very few acknowledge the 30 pieces of silver stand and more concerned with Derek Hatton who had less to do with our downfall than the Chairman.

I too really enjoyed the film and will do so again and again.

I too, was disappointed with 'you know who' being given a leading role in the introduction of the film. I lived through the '80s as a committed Labour voter and trade unionist and was amazed how a humble fireman rose to such an influential position on Liverpool City Council so quickly.

Neil Kinnock, whatever people think of him, exposed him brutally at the Labour Party conference, which was the beginning of the end for his political career.

As to the film itself, I have to say, I felt slightly disappointed with the result. There was little or no 'new' footage (perhaps there isn't any) on show, and very little or no time given to Howard's managerial career prior to joining Everton.

Also, no mention of him being the youngest player ever to appear in an FA Cup Final at the time, in 1964.

I'm felt as if the Evertonians in the film talking in the pub, were simply repeating what we all felt at the time, that a great side were denied the opportunity to play against Europe's best teams, but maybe with a sense of us being cast as 'victims', and fate conspiring once again to 'kick us in the balls'.

I'm not sure what relevance the infamous Clive Thomas incident in 1977 had to do with the ban we suffered in the mid-80s?

I enjoyed the film, simply because it was a visual reminder of what I witnessed at the time, including my midweek trip to Oxford United and that famous Kevin Brock backpass which proved the catalyst for everything else that followed.

I just think the film-makers could have left much of the local political 'figures' of the time on the cutting room floor.

I still enjoyed the film though.

However, I felt a great deal of sadness when they talked about the Bayern game being the best night of their footballing lives. There should have been so many more nights like that.

I was disappointed that the film focussed so much on the 18 months of 1984 through to mid-1985. The subsequent two seasons were very successful, we were probably a better team in 85-86, and becoming champions again in '87 was a fantastic achievement, but it was given very little recognition in the film.

Yes, 84-85 was a period of unrivalled success, but the break up of that great team and the failure to build on it was painful for us all to watch, and hearing about that from the players would have been very interesting and illuminating.

I am not sure why we had to hear so much from Derek Hatton, I am not clear why his views are relevant to the story.

I thoroughly enjoyed the film, and it was a bit of an emotional roller coaster but, at the end, I was left wanting more.

Thanks for your input about Hatton.

For the record, Lineker's transformation from being a high scoring Leicester striker to scoring nearly 40 goals for us and winning the Golden Boot in Mexico '86 was done in 18 months so I suspect Howard Kendall, knowing we'd not won anything, trusted his '85 winners and was prepared to let him go for a profit.

My Dad says this and I agree, we should have negotiated a buy-back clause when he left Barca. Somebody like him would have massively benefited us in the early '90s.

Cruyff aside, I can't think of many. I remember reading about Gullit. Apparently he found it difficult to coach because players at that level don't think about how they do things - it's that natural to them. So it becomes difficult for them to explain and they get frustrated when players can't do what they consider "normal" stuff.

Keith; agree and I think I said above, from Howard's perspective, the 87 title win was arguably a greater achievement. In pure footballing terms though, the 85 team was one of the best ever put together. And when you consider the position we were in only 16/17 months earlier (that Coventry game, leaflets, Kendall must go etc), to be champions of England with an FA Cup & European Trophy under our belt was also a fantastic achievement & turn around.

Great times. Finished my 3rd viewing last night!!

I would have liked to have seen more of the 85/87 seasons. We played some great stuff, Nev gavec the best goalkeeping display I've ever seen at Anfield and we got a high points total. In 87 we came from behind to win the league at a canter.

In the mid 80s, both Merseyside clubs were run like small family businesses. I think our success caught our board on the hop and they didn't know what to do. Some may argue they still don't.

Right down to this very day, success is never planned or expected at Everton Football Club.

It was the same in that all too brief period in the 1980's.

It came about unexpectedly and our board never had a clue what to do with it, we sold our better players and replaced them with lesser men (something else which to this very day is still happening).

We should have went into that 1990's decade with a higher expectation level than say the likes of Arsenal even but we totally disappeared, partly because the European ban but also because we had idiots working on the board.

The fact that Everton have not challenged for the title for 30 years now is a disgrace whenyou look at the list of clubs that have been up there in that time challenging at least.

Even when Liverpool has barren spells they always harboured the belief that they SHOULD be winning things and demanded success.

Everton have simply been too half arsed whether it comes or not.

All comes down once again to mentality.

Perhaps we could learn from those players.

Support and get together.

Shit...that would mess up the 8 or nine "scientists" on here.

I love our club..regardless!

Lets all raise a port and lemon to the wonderful "fuck this right and wrong" lark

Sigh

'Lets all raise a port and lemon to fuck this right and wrong lark"

Absolutely, 1000000000% agree my friend.

Isn't that what we do with our differing knowledge, experience and location. Great. Who is right? Fuck knows but usually quite spread.

Open of course for contributing nothing apart from a reaction to a film. Or comments on team and club. But hey our family season tickets ended when I was 12 due to cost, so I look at this through TW and TV and the occasional visit.

Sure some here I wind up but so I do in life. As we all do. C'est la vie.

Thankfully it means little and is s bit of fun. My friend from Chicago used to do the same but called it a day sadly.

Seems OK to me.

I will try and add some input, I started going the games towards the mid seventies and around 79 followed Everton home and away and was lucky enough to be a regular as the team started to build, I have no shame in saying we were really struggling and was one of those on the terraces booing at the Coventry game, the football was dire, I could not image what was to unfold within a year.

Peter Reid and Andy Gray gave belief to the team, they were the voice and never give up attitude that lifted a team, Sharp learned how to handle himself, we took two a Liverpool reserves and boy did they both turn out to be a shrewd buy.

Even through that golden period, we suffered like no other Champions through injuries, Heath, Bracewell, Southall all out long term, that team of 85 were untouchable for me, then it happened, the ban came into force, just like when we won the league just before the First World War, it hit us again when the Second World War broke out, so to be cut short in our prime a third time was extremely bad luck.

Norwich City wanted Everton to back them in fighting the ban, but Everton refused and accepted the ban.

Then came the 86 team, again Lineker did a fantastic job filling the boots of Andy Gray, it made sense, we were a young side, so buying the best striker for long term made perfect sense, all was going well, well clear then fate bit us on the backside, when Southall picked up his injury playing for Wales, good as Mimms played, there was no way Everton would have let that 12 point lead slip, with Neville between the sticks.

Then came the rumours Barcelona were looking for a Manager, to this Day, I still say Kendall let Lineker go to Barcelona, expecting to join up with him soon, Venables got the job instead.

Lineker never asked for the move, Kendall said we were too dependant on Lineker and did not suit our style, but still say we should not have sold Lineker.

The following season would seem to back up Kendall's claim, but personally for me, we just had rotten luck with the Southall injury along with Bracewell and Heath, that 86 team were no mugs, just fate yet again biting us on the backside.

That team from 85 going onto 87 were the the best in the Country, fate snatched it away from a team that would have certainly picked up more Silverwere.

So any of the younger generation who were unlucky not to see that great Everton team, I would strongly suggest watching Howard's Way.

One final note, Derek Mountfield had a knack at popping up and scoring, a great defender and again has stated by Mountfield himself, he suffered a fit and told Kendall about it, Kendall said not to worry and he will keep it hush hush, a month later Kendall paid out big money to bring Dave Watson to Everton and that was the end for Mountfield who was allowed to move on to another club.

I have a question; On a scale of 1-10 How good could an injury free Paul Bracewell have been ?

I don't know whether its because his career was cut short by bastard luck, but Brace seems to always be in the background when the plaudits are being handed out. Never quite front and center.
I thought he went through a spell when he was quite simply the best midfield player in the country.

If my memory's right, he had an injured leg, kept getting patched up and injected, then it emerged he'd fractured his leg. That's what did him.

That debut against them at Wembley. That pass to Steven against Sunderland.

Injury blighted him however I wonder that even had he been free of that, would he have suffered from the Everton blight.

No bitterness here, but even before my generation, we were a top & very successful club but Harvey & Kendall had one England cap between them.

Even when we have been successful, we just aren't media darlings.

Then you have Everton winning the league again in the 39 season, with Tommy Lawton banging the goals in, yet again another war stops that great team in its tracks.

Then you have the eighties team, who once again was stopped in its tracks, by the Euro ban.

As for injuries, I doubt there is any other top flight league Champions who have had to play with key players missing through injury long term.

Pretty damn sure there is a gypsys curse laying somewhere within Goodison Park.

Brian, can we please end once and for all the misconception that Southall's injury damaged our chances of winning the League in 85-86. Neville was injured playing for Wales on 26th March. We had nine games left. We won 6, Drew 2 and lost 1. Mimms kept 6 clean sheets and our goal difference was F 14, A 3.

We lost the League because we failed to beat Man Utd and Nottm Forest away and lost to Oxford. Meanwhile, Liverpool were on a winning streak, with eleven wins and one draw in their last twelve games. Nothing to do with Mimms, more our forwards failing at Oxford etc. and Liverpool in unstoppable form.

Spot on with your views on the sale of Lineker. It was El Kel to replace El Tel. I think we tried to resign him but he picked Spurs because of Venables. It wasn't just Bracewell who suffered after injury. Inchy was never the same player after his knee and I hadn't heard about Derek Mount and his fit, I thought he had been replaced because of dodgy knees. One thing that did come out in the film, one of the reasons for Kendall's success was how ruthless he was.

Regarding the European ban. From the day Thatcher told Ted Croker to do something about his Hooligans his reply: "They're your Hooligans, not mine." She was on a mission. There was only one outcome after Heysel, and no amount of protest would have overturned our ban.

I agree that Uefa should have been also held accountable, and Italy too. A lot of kopites where given hidings the previous year in Rome, but no punishment was dished out. In Brussels, Italians were riding round on scooters, randomly slashing fans. Again, no reprisals.

For the record, when we finally beat Liverpool in a derby, there will be trouble for the first time in years. Guess what: there will be no reprisals.

To think we were that good though. Champions the season before, close runners up that season, to come back and be crowned Champions again the following season. Even the season after, which was "poor" as we only finished 4th. I appreciate the prizes were different then, but imagine that; 1st, 2nd, 1st, 4th.

Good days.

We were runners up in '87 and in 5 cup finals too.

I don't believe this team or squad received the credit they deserve for an incredible 5 years... even from our own long-standing supporters... 2 league championships, 4... yes FOUR FA Cup Finals!!!! A League Cup final, a European final win, and apparently we were better in '63 and '68-'70.

It was an incredible period as you say; I'm just grateful I was there at Goodison and other stadium around the country to witness it first hand.

I can't comment on the '60s teams as they were before my time. However, I grew up with my father talking about them and all I can say is that he rated the 84-85 team as the best he'd seen (and he watched the Holy Trinity, I didn't).

But our heartache over the decision is as nothing to the heartbreak of the families who were bereaved on that night in Heysel. May they Rest In Peace and not be forgotten, as seems to be the case in some quarters.

I have bought the DVD and intend to watch it on my own as I know the tears will flow as the greatest of times in my lifetime as a Blue is played out in front of me.

For what it's worth, my memory of 1985/86 was that we had a sluggish start and that cost us as much as anything else.

Remember the start to 84-85 as well? Thumped 4-1 at home to Tottenham on the opening day followed by defeat to West Brom; indeed, come early September, we'd only taken 4 points from 12.

Another prime example was the home Derby - we get a point, (not to mention 3) and they don't get 3 and the League Table is a different ball game.

And I'm convinced that we went into the Cup Final with Mountfield and definitely Bracewell carrying injuries and not 100% fit. Bracewell played the whole game, wasn't subbed and walked off under his own steam...he didn't kick a ball for 18mths and was never the same player.

Our style for the whole season had been different to the previous and, as it turned out, the following season.
I have given the stats (I know, Stats! But they are important here) for the last nine games with Mimms in goal. The previous nine with Neville in goal are almost identical: P9 W6 D2 L1. Goals for-19. Against 8. So we scored more and conceded more. If Lineker had buried the two easy chances against Oxford the outcome would have been different. Plus, you forget that the RS put together an incredible run with 23 points out of a possible 24. We, basically, bottled it. Nothing to do with Mimms and the imagined lack of confidence.

That decision which was 'unchallenged' by those who were in a position to do so, also grates, even so many years later. Like you succinctly mentioned was to result in the gradual break-up of our team, which hypothetically could have gone on to achieve great things.

I am 70 next year, so was fortunate enough to have witnessed our great times and attended most matches home and away, so thanks again for your article Ged, and a reminiscent trip down Memory Lane.

I still think we lost the league at the start. I also remember being at both Old T & Forest and wondering if those dropped points would cost us.

I also remember going to that 2-0 Anfield Derby with a good RS mate. Sitting in the pub afterwards, he pointed at their run-in and thought they still had a chance. He was right!

1) (the most important!). Curiously, I'm struggling to find the film on Amazon, preferably the download version, as Brazilian post is lousy and I wouldn't trust it to deliver the DVD. Any links would be appreciated.

2) Ray Roche's numbers confirm my memory. Bobby Mimms was nothing less than excellent on taking over the keeper's gloves when Big Nev got injured.

Claims that the rest of the team were a bit more cautious or nervous with Mimms in goal don't stand up for me. In a time keepers could still pick up the ball from back passes, I recall in the game at Old Trafford Gary Stevens, under pressure, gave a very tight, pressured back pass to Mimms. It could have gone horribly wrong. Mimms dealt with it with aplomb. I genuinely recall thinking at the time, Stevens would never have played that pass unless he had total confidence in his keeper to deal with it.

3) Totally agree with Brain Williams @ 70. I'm not having that claim by Kevin Molly re: their fans vs ours at the time of our respective European finals.

I was in Rotterdam that day. It was a joyous event all day long and the Dutch loved us.

By contrast, some time last year, somebody put up a very disturbing piece by a (now) journalist, a city-born red, about their own day in Brussels. I can't recall his name (others knew of him), but it was the most honest assessment I have ever read by any Red of that day.

He said there was a lot of anger, a lot of hate, a lot of intimidation and violence throughout the day which was just the prelude to the tragic events that occurred in the stadium.

You've called that one badly, Kevin.

In my time, and that includes the hooligan period in question, I have travelled far and wide with Everton and over the years I also got to know some of the real hard men. Let me say this: the Everton crew were bad lads but they had a sense of “honour” that meant they did not trouble anyone but the opposition crew, by which I mean their counterparts who were geared up for a rumble.

I've been in situations where Everton fans have been attacked inside and outside grounds like Man Utd, Leeds, West Ham and Notts Forest. In each case there was no reason for such attacks and the police were too few to prevent it, but each time I was glad to be with good men who by not running away actually defused worse trouble.

Rotterdam and Brussels are geographically close so there was no huge cultural difference to take into account in explaining the events of two cup finals two weeks apart. What happened at Heysel was that a minority of Liverpool fans saw a chance to serve retribution for previous attacks on Liverpool fans in Rome.

Not only is Juventus not in Rome but their supporters inside the ground at Heysel were very different people to the thugs waiting all tooled up in the dark passageways of Rome for innocent and unsuspecting foreign fans.

I am with Brian: Everton fans did not go out looking for trouble. The organised crew went about their business away from the ground. My issues are: no, it could not have just as easily been us, yes, the events of Heysel should be commemorated and its victims mourned, and yes, I'm still angry that EFC's chairman (and Tory leader in Liverpool) acquiesced with Thatcher in agreeing to a ban that should have been put on LFC only. It was not this bloody ban that solved the hooligan problem by the way, but that's another story.

No tabloid made-up story this. This is Tony Evans writing in the Sunday Times. He was 22-years-old at the time of Brussels. This is his account of his day.

Our Day of Shame

A Liverpool fan recalls how events spiralled out of control. By Tony Evans at the Sunday Times.

NEVER forgive, never forget. Never understand. On Merseyside, the feelings about the Heysel disaster are as deep as they are confused.

The chant above was sung at the derby match last month by Everton fans, many of whom feel that in some way they are the real victims of that dreadful day because their title-winning team could not play in the European Cup the next season. It taunted Liverpool supporters, some of whom still feel that they had nothing to do with the deaths of 39 people on that May night nearly 20 years ago.

“A wall collapsed, that was all."

I have said it and heard it countless times. Except it is a lie.

There was a moment that day that, more than anything that would happen over the ensuing 24 hours, has haunted me. Our train had just arrived at Jette station and a long column of Liverpool supporters set off downhill towards the centre of Brussels. I lingered and watched them, chequered flags flying, and thought it looked like a medieval army on the move. Above the narrow street, the locals hung out of open windows and watched, half-grinning but nervous. As I set off for the Grand Place, I thought: “We can do what we like today. No one can stop us."

It was warm and sunny, but there was a dark side to the general mood. It did not need the chequered flags, bought in Rome, to remind anyone about the events in the Italian capital a year before. Then, playing AS Roma in the European Cup final in their own stadium, Liverpool had won the cup but it was not a day remembered with affection. Before the match, scooter gangs has stalked the travelling fans. After the game, Rome erupted in rage, and the bloody events around the Olympic Stadium left everyone who was there and those who had only heard talk of what happened determined not to suffer again at the hands of Italian ultras.

“The Italians won't do that to us again” was a refrain repeated in the weeks since the semi-final. It was not a matter of revenge. It was a wariness, a fear that built itself up to an enormous rage that would spill out at the slightest perceived provocation.

The anger was palpable, and not just toward Italians. The British media, we felt, had barely reported one of the worst outbreaks of violence in the game's history. Had it happened to supporters from any other city, there would have been outrage. But Liverpool was out of step with the mood of the country, marginalised and despised. Well, we could fight our own battles.

Turning into a narrow street in the centre of town, my brother and I saw about six Juventus fans in their twenties, lounging outside a cafe, trying to look cool and hard at the same time. When one looked me straight in the eye, I snarled: “Go on gobshite, say something." They did not take up the offer. But the tone was set. And the drinking had not even started.

We were used to confrontation, though not necessarily at football matches. The first half of the 1980s was perhaps the city's lowest point, philosophically and economically. Scousers were labelled as thieves in the press, the city's working class moved ever leftwards as Margaret Thatcher was feted and the culture gap between Liverpool and the rest of England was stretched to breaking point.

Many of Liverpool's travelling fans were politicised, even if only in a loose way. Quite a few of us had battled with police outside at Eddie Shah's printing plant in Warrington and gravitated towards Militant Tendency. On the ordinary trains the tales were as likely to be about picket lines and Troops Out marches as incidents at football grounds. This was not hooligan culture as popularly imagined.

Where other clubs' supporters gave themselves butch names and built a myth of organisation and generals, Liverpool and Everton fans mocked the hooligan ethos relentlessly. Read copies of The End, the seminal fanzine of the period, and the picture is clear. Service Crews, Headhunters and their ilk were laughable. The Inter City Firm drew guffaws and was seen not as a force to be admired and feared but as something from a Thatcherite Ealing Comedy. None of those people were present in Brussels, no matter what was said at the time. Hooligans from the far right would not have been welcome.

Of course, this did not mean there was no trouble at our games, just that it evolved in a different manner. When groups of young, aggressive, predominantly working-class men are put in confrontational situations, then there will be confrontation. There was.

The Grand Place was less tense than might have been expected. Liverpool fans were here in numbers and small groups who had travelled independently met up, felt safe and relaxed into an afternoon of drinking. Clustered around the bars, we sang, bare-chested in the sun. It was almost idyllic. Then the atmosphere started to turn as the drink kicked in.

The common belief was that Belgian beer was weaker than the booze at home. In the heat, young men used to drinking a gallon of weak mild were quaffing strong lagers as if they were lemonade. Small incidents started to mushroom and suddenly the mood changed and the bars began to shut down.By now, there were four of us in our little group. We were reluctant to leave the square because other friends may still be heading for the rendezvous. I went to find some beer, taking a red and white cap to give some protection from the sun. Walking down a narrow street, I saw a group of boys laughing almost hysterically. Seeing my quizzical look, they pointed at a shop. It was a jewellers with no protective grating over the window. All you could do was laugh.

Farther on, I saw a group of Juventus supporters, and one was wearing a black and white sun hat. It would give me more cover in the heat, so I swapped with him. Only he clearly did not want to part with his hat. He had no choice. Sensing danger, he let me have it and looked in disgust at the flimsy thing I'd given him. This was not cultural exchange: this was bullying, an assertion of dominance. I remember strutting away, slowly, the body language letting them know how I felt.

There was a supermarket by the bourse and, at the entrance, there was a Liverpool fan. “You're Scouse?" he said. There was no need for an answer and he knew what I was there for. “It's free to us today” he said, handing me a tray of beer. Things were spinning out of control.

On the way back to the square, the group of Liverpool fans by the jewellers had been replaced by riot police. Glass was scattered all over the street. There was hysteria and pride in my laughter. This was turning into an excellent day.

We set off for the ground and there seemed to be more and more small confrontations. On other days the little cultural misunderstandings would end in hugs. Here, with the hair-trigger tempers, it was tears, and we were determined they would not be ours.

At the ground there was madness. People were staggering, collapsing, throwing up. A large proportion of Liverpool fans seemed to have lost control. We met a group of mates who had come by coach. A fellow passenger we all knew had leapt off as soon as they arrived and attacked two people, one an Italian, with an iron bar.

Even in a drunk and deranged state, the stadium appalled us. The outer wall was breeze block, and some of the ticketless were kicking holes in its base and attempting to crawl through. Most were getting savage beatings from the riot police, finally making their presence felt. It was easier to walk into the ground and ignore the ticket collector, some of whom were seated at tables. I went home with a complete ticket. Four years later, on another dreadful day, I would enter another ground without needing to show my ticket. It is not just the Belgians whose inefficiency had deadly consequences. Section Y grew more and more crowded and, in front of us, a crush barrier buckled and collapsed.

The rough treatment by the police drew a response and they disappeared from the back of the section after skirmishes. Seeing a policeman beating a young lad who was attempting to climb over the wall and was caught in the barbed wire, I pushed the Belgian away. He turned to hit me and I punched him not hard through his open visor. He ran away.

With the police gone, groups of youths swarmed over a snack stand and looted it. I climbed onto the roof, and was passed up cans of soft drinks. It felt like being on top of the world up there.

Back on the terraces there was an exchange of missiles nothing serious by the standards of the day. We looked enviously at the space in section Z, though. There were too many people in our section. I went to the toilet and, by the time I came back, the fence was down and people were climbing over. Unable to locate my group, I joined the swarm. In section Z I wandered around for a while. There seemed to be very little trouble. People backed away but there were no charges, just a minor scuffle or two.

I climbed back into section Y, oblivious that 39 people were in the process of dying. It was clear that a huge commotion was going on at the front, and we began to get tetchy about the delayed kick-off.

Then there seemed to be a long tirade in Italian over the public address system. Someone suggested it was a list of names and all hell broke loose. Juventus fans came out of their end and came around the pitch and attacked the corner where the Liverpool supporters were standing. My mother, brother and sister were in there. Everyone went crazy. Men tore at the fences to get at the Italians and, at last, the police did an effective job of holding Liverpool fans back. The brother with me said: “If those fences go, football will be finished. There'll be hundreds dead. It will be over. Finally, the police drove the Italians back.

The game? I remember nothing. Afterwards? A deep disappointment, a nervousness about Italian knives, and a Belgian policeman whose parting shot at the stadium was to open the doors of a bus, throw in a canister of tear gas, and shut everyone in.

At Ostend it was a passive, depressive struggle through overcrowded departure rooms. No one mentioned deaths and shock ran through the ferry when we heard the news.

And so we limped home, quickly throwing off any shame, repeating the mantra that it was a construction problem, just a wall collapsing, hiding from the scale of what had happened. The disaster has a long causal chain. Stabbings and beatings in Rome, hair-trigger tempers, aggression on both sides, excessive drinking, poor policing and a stadium ripe for disaster. Remove any one link and the game may have passed off peacefully. But it didn't.

So, Evertonians sing, with pathetic self-pity, “Thirty-nine Italians can't be wrong." Well they weren't. We were. I was.

We may be from the same City. We may come from the same families & bloodlines, I have many close friends & family on the other side.

But for some reason, we are very different when we discuss football; even my family members. They have an air of entitlement about them. They fly a Jeremy Corbyn banner yet behave like untouchable royalty. I find them hypocritical & condescending, especially when referring to Everton. Challenge them and you're bitter. Agree with them & praise Liverpool; you're one of the sensible blues. As long as we know our place they're okay with us.

Always outraged, never embarrassed is very apt. Some will argue that their continuous sense of injustice & protests achieves their aims whilst we accept mediocracy.

Cut from the same cloth maybe. But tailored & fashioned very differently.

Finally, just to agree with Kevin, who I respect for his very honest view. The key point often missed (outrageously by many Liverpool fans), is that 39 people went to a football match and never came home. That challenges their own late (and great) Bill Shankly's statement in my opinion.

That's why we're different. A kopite speaking against the party view would likely be strung up & expelled. We can debate sensibly amongst each other. Back on thread, as Howard himself is quoted: "the most knowledgable fans in football".

For many years, Liverpool 's response to Heysel was woefully inadequate. I was shown a copy of the club's official yearbook for 1985/86. There were two articles about the tragedy on page three, but they were both of the “Let's put this behind us, improve the matchday Anfield atmosphere and look to restore the club's good name” variety. There was no direct reference to what had happened. There was no hint of an apology. Later there was a round-up of the previous European Cup campaign, in which 1985/86 was identified as a “watershed” because it would be Liverpool 's last for some time.

Ashamed of nothing

Would prefer that idiot Hatton not to be in it, hate him, what a fraud he is. I remember we played Blackburn home in the FA Cup, not sure what year but the enclosure was split down the middle home & away fans and Hatton & Mulhern in the box by the EFC fans. He sat there drinking bubbles, smoking a cigar and giving the wxxker sign to the fans below. He was a lucky man the EFC fans couldn't get to him, Everton lads at the time wanted to rip his head off.