1966 (and all that) — Part 2

Regarding the semis, the Goodison Park crowd were angry that the England vs Portugal game was transferred at the last minute from Goodison to Wembley.

Eusebio was ever a crowd favourite of course. Well after he retired, he was at a penalty-shot competition in Portugal and asked to have a go. In just his casual shoes he took a pen with all the pros and came third!

I hadn't realised just how low the attendances were, given the Goodison capacity was around 70,000 in those days. Unlike today, the majority of fans were locals; football tourism had yet to be invented.

After the game Uwe Seeler nipped over to Wigan to visit family he has there. Imagine that happening today with a World Cup Final coming up.

The North Koreans were based at a RC seminary in Rainhill.

To this day it's rankled me that we didn't see England in the Goodison semi final. That's how it should have worked out but the FA fiddled them back to Wembley where they played all their games, bar the one at the White City Stadium.

That's an emotional post for me. I started going to Goodison as a small boy in the early 60s, wedged into two seats between my Dad and my Grandad in the Upper Bullens stand. I can still remember mutterings that you were a snob if you went in the stands. It was a bit later in life that I reconciled you could not really be a snob if you were seriously wounded on The Somme, worked in the markets in town all your life, and spent your spare time trying to improve the lives of those less fortunate than yourself. As my Grandad did.

Anyway, having supported Everton all his life, having attended the 1933 FA Cup Final (and arrived home by 10.30pm), he mysteriously missed the 1966 FA Cup final. I never knew why, but I do know that everyone who desperately needed a ticket got one, including me.

Instead, his final game at Goodison was North Korea 3 v 5 Portugal.

Thanks John.

Terry, I think you will agree that it was an experience of a lifetime, although North Korea had triumphed against Italy at Ayresome Park, with a goal from Park Doo-ik. As I said, the crowd went ballistic when the Koreans went three up, and they only knew one way to play. I'm not saying that they would have beaten Portugal if they'd gone defensive, but I feel it would have robbed us of a memorable occasion.

Peter, it's true that stand fans were somehow regarded as a cut above the man on the terrace, as you grow a little bit older you realise that they're just as passionate and loyal to the club as anyone. I graduated to the Upper Bullens Stand in the middle 70s and I discovered that there were, what we used to call 'Toffs', who turned out to be nice down to earth blokes. Your Grandad sounds like a special individual, and it's clear that you hold him in the greatest respect, and if there's anything I warm to it is respect.

Bill, I think you are correct in your reasoning regarding the attendances, those were the days when only the regular fans would be seen at football grounds, none of the celebrity crowd, or hangers on. To tell the truth I wasn't really bothered that England didn't play at Goodison, we had the opportunity to see Banks, the Charlton's, etc. at Goodison both before and after the World Cup Games. To watch some of the finest players in the world would in most cases, be a once in a lifetime experience.

To me, he further enhanced his sporting credentials in the 1968 European Cup Final against Man Utd. At one-all late in the second half, he unleashed a shot of such power that the Man Utd keeper, Alex Stepney, admitted he was grateful that it inadvertently lodged under his arm, unwittingly saving a goal. Stepney regained his feet, bemused he said, to find Eusebio shaking his hand in appreciation of such a fantastic save.

They don't make 'em like the Black Panther anymore.

As stated, West Germany vs USSR was an anti-climax and I still haven't forgiven The FA for selling tickets under false pretenses.

The home crowd was firmly behind Hungary and the North Koreans... for all we blat on about School of Science, we all love underdogs and triers at Goodison. Yet, as we do, we stood to a man and applauded both Portugal and North Korea off the field.

North Korea still kept plugging away and had the Portuguese reduced to serious amounts of time-wasting. So much so, that as a result of the Portuguese goalie obeying the letter, but not the spirit of the law... running the clock down by walking around his area, ostensibly looking for somebody to pass the ball to, while bouncing it every third step... the rules regarding goalies were (later) amended.

That reminds me, when challenged previously about what horrors television hath wrought on the game you remember, the only thing you could come up with was kick-off times that don't fit your personal regime:

"As a match-going fan, I have to attend matches as early as 12:00 noon, or 5:30 pm on a Saturday, or as late as 8:00 pm on any given evening. These kick-off times are not for the benefit of those of us who attend games, they are for someone in the Far East and other locations."

This is an argument I've heard put forward as one of the main complaints. I would just point out that floodlights, rather than television per se was the critical factor that lets fans attend evening games during the week. Nothing to do with television or the Far East. And I'm sure you're familar with the comment lament of how wonderful Goodison Park can be "under the lights".

And the time in Shanghai when games kick off at 8 pm? Why it's 3 am!!! Is that a particularly good time for TV advertisers to lure in the sleeper Far Eastern TV viewer so they can make pots of money, while your average match-going UK punter is inconvenienced by an 8 pm midweek kick-off? A 5:30 pm kick-off is hardly any better, the game ending around 2:30 am in Shanghai!

I shall refrain from stating the obvious, John, as I know you are easily offended.

I wonder what Johnny Morrisey might think when he hears the news.

RIP Jack Charlton

Regarding sitting in the stands, I always regarded fans who sat there as the sensible fans and, as soon as I could afford it, that's where I sat. Why get knocked from pillar to post when you could watch the game in relative comfort?

Michael (8) do you think there were no evening games before floodlights? At the start and at the end of every season there were plenty of evening games, kick offs at 7:00 pm. One game I remember was against Middlesborough and the heavens opened, never seen such a downpour while the game proceeded. In fact, I think the players were taken off for a few minutes until the rain went off. I recall Jimmy McIntosh scored one of the goals in a 3-2 victory.

Well Michael,the only thing that is obvious to me, is the personal dislike you have taken to me. It may give you pleasure to know that when the current thread dies a natural death, or when you decide to delete it. I will have posted my final contribution to this site. Over the four years or so that I've been involved on this site, I have made some very good friends in person and by communication, one or two have my e-mail address, but if anyone would like to have it, I would suggest that they contact Lyndon, stating that have my permission to obtain it.

In the main it's been enjoyable, but to use an anti- Bill Kenwright phrase, 'it's your train set'

Hi Don [6] I remember the Eusebio and Stepney incident well, Eusebio ruffled Stepney's hair in friendly appreciation of the save, a 'True Gntleman.'

Hi Derek [7] I believe that the crowd especially in the North Korean game, were 100% behind the underdogs, different times, different attitudes.

Hi Dave [9] the Portugal vs North Korea game was special, and as you say there were evening and early games pre floodlights, but they were because of "Mother Nature" An evening game that sticks out in my mind was the 6pm game against Bury in the Second Division. Derek Mayers making his debut, scoring twice in a 3-0 victory, with Dave Hickson grabbing the other goal. The attendance that evening was just over 11,000, mainly because an hour or so before the kick-off, there was a tremendous cloudburst, which undoubtedly had an effect.

Hi Ray [10] I think that Dave was talking about the days long before the 'Cushion Days'

I started watching the team just after people like you and Dave and a few others. We oldies represent something important on TW which is a store of memory, a store which will be passed on. Our history does matter and your articles are very much part of that.

John get your head together and have a good think about leaving ToffeeWeb. Michael's bark is worse than his bite, just rise above it, you'll be missed and you know you'll miss the site.

John @ 12, frankly just ignore his tedious responses to your articles.

You've been called out before for your childish, vindictive nitpicking at John. It says a lot that you keep at it yet didn't respond to Darren Hind challenging you on your views on Ancelotti versus your previous stance on Moyes.

John,

Thanks for these articles. For younger (although not young!) fans like myself, it's stuff like this which makes this site great. Such a welcome distraction from the “this player is useless” contributions that take over matchday threads.

John, I hope you reconsider your decision to stop posting. You wouldn't be the first to be hounded out and unfortunately probably not the last. Have a wonderful 82nd birthday this week, John, and here's hoping for many more to follow.

Please carry on writing, the are lots of us out here who appreciate you!

ps: Happy birthday, I am 68 in a couple of weeks and i have hear a rumour that my daughters are getting me an EFC shirt with No 68 and Grandad on the back. I shall wear it with pride!

I can tell you it's not an easy decision to make, what makes it so difficult for me, is the fact that I have never been disrespectful or purposely offensive to anyone on this site. So do I accept that sort of approach from anyone else?

I won't rush into a decision, I'll need time to think, is it my pride, or your support?

Life's too short for silly disagreements and I'm certain that a solution can be found that suits all parties including the many members here on ToffeeWeb who enjoy the articles provided by the various authors and the platform provided by the editors to allow those articles to be published.

I don't know what started things between you and him but I've met you and know you to be a gentleman. I think it's fair to say you come from an era where respect, tolerance, and good manners were of the utmost importance and maybe some of the interactions on here are anathema to you.

For what it's worth, and it ain't usually much, my advice would be to "carry on regardless" and "wear a tin 'at." Focus on the positives and brush off the negatives. Unfortunately, some may suggest, not everyone is as genteel and well mannered as you. 😉

ps: Although you may have got the time differences wrong for the Far East comparison, I agree that some of the kick-offs these days are to suit TV broadcasts, and not all of them in the UK.

Lately, you seem to enjoy getting under John's skin for no apparent reason, as John is one of the most courteous and polite posters on this site, I would go as far as to say it is bullying.

If I might add that the written word can look far more brusque than if the same was spoken with a slight inflexion or a smile. I have been offended and given offence through the medium of emails.

A friend can tell you to "Fuck Off" with a smirk and it means nothing, yet written down it looks quite different.

Most of us on here, I think, could be loosely described as "friends" so let's all make an effort to be forthright in our opinions without resorting to name-calling or abuse.

I remember being pissed-off over the semi and gave my ticket to my brother and went away on holiday in North Wales where the lady who run the bed and breakfast let me watch the final on the TV as her husband had gone to Wembly with her son.

Understand your feelings and it is a shame that someone takes advantage by thinking his knowledge is better than yours, but your experience will still be missed if you stop writing.

All the best, John, and if and when I come back for a visit I would like to get in touch.

As others have pointed out, you have been courteous with everyone and for some other contributor to start picking on you is an insult to the great knowledge of all things Everton which you possess. Please keep imparting your knowledge to us.

Surely it's just positive mind games to keep these snowflakes happy until the trap door can be opened this summer. If not I'm cashing my chips in like John Mac Senior and try after 50 plus years and ooze them out my system.

I'm sorry that it seems you have no time for what is no more than a little light-hearted jousting on here. Some things I read from posters just don't make any sense. If that triggers me to post in response, I do so – without paying too much attention to whom it is who may be posting. Thus with the TV question that you have successfully deflected.

But that's clearly been my big mistake in your case. You treated my questions as a personal affront, which they never were. Merely curiosity as to how you come to believe such things, which I would have thought such a wise old owl as you would be chomping at the bit to impart.

Consider me well chastened by the outpouring of love and support you have received that's proper put me in my place, John. Enough not to dare challenge your wisdom of the ages again for fear of unleashing another torrent of personal invective from you.

I've only met you a couple of times but I suspect you have the capacity to rise above some rather silly comments. Happy birthday for later in the week.

There has been an, at best, lazy ignorance and, at worst, nefarious campaign to belittle and undermine our status. Only today in that fine and upstanding newspaper the Daily Mail, the achievements of our greatest ever player were belittled and lied about by the national treasure, 'Crouchie'.

In answer to a question about the offside rule he claimed 'Dixie Dean scored 60 goals for Everton in the 1920s when there was no offside rule'. A blatant falsehood and likely a result of his connection to the dark side, where everything we stand for is constantly attacked.

He then added further offense by implying he would have beaten this record and suggesting that Dixie was just a lazy goalhanger. Never in a million years, 'Crouchie'. I for one am getting increasingly angry by the constant attempts to denigrate the club I love. NSNO

But you are 100% right on Crouch. Shouldn't have even been reading him or that rag anyway.

Since you bring it up, I recall that thread triggered plenty of responses that did an excellent job of explaining the geometric fallacies in Dazza's parallel lines drawn between Moyes and Ancelotti. I know he had challenged me personally but, in that case, I think a better result was found in the answers from others that were far better than mine would have been.

However, it's good to know you are on the lookout for when and how I should or should not respond to other posters. Thanks for that.

Liam Mogan (#43),

This is now classed as "nitpicking" on here but I feel duty bound to note that the offside rule was changed in 1925 to ‘two opponents' rather than three and there was a marked increase in the number of goals scored.

In the 1924-25 season 4,700 goals were scored across 1,848 Football League matches. The following season, this rose to 6,373 goals from the same number of matches.

It was fully two seasons later, so... did Dixie Dean benefit from this rule change? I think he probably did — but it was the same for everyone, including George Camsell, the lad from Middlesbrough the season before, who scored 59.

Prior to then, Newcastle United had two full backs, Bill McCracken and Frank Hudspeth, who had the offside trap down to a fine art, one of whom would stand on the half-way line, and move forward thus playing his opponents offside if the ball was played forward. So what Crouch is saying is nonsense.

It was changed again in 1990 to being level and not behind. So it could be argued Save Our Summer Peter had it easier than Dixie.

Dixie was also subject to two footed tackles and arm wrestling, whereas current players get free kicks if the breeze is strong. So how can you possibly compare the two? It's an entirely different game.

That's a nice anecdote. How did you land that gig? A Russian guy my Dad worked with was the official interpreter for the Russian players in the 1987 Football League versus The Rest of the World match.

It was a last-minute thing where they arrived spoke no English, and someone knew someone who roped this guy in to be the translator. The benefit for me was Yuri collected autographs for me from Maradona, Pele (he was a guest there), Platini, Lineker, etc

I have looked up the definition of invective in two dictionaries, neither one the Oxford English Dictionary, so I'm flying blind now.

Dictionary one reads, "violent accusation or abuse". Dictionary number two reads, "blaming or criticising in very strong language". Can you please tell which of those two am I guilty of.

Say or print something to get a reaction and eventually your "story" features on the likes if NewsNow. He's a mug trying to do a job he hasn't got the smarts for. Nice lad otherwise, for a gobshite.

Nice try. I don't need to be “on the lookout”. Bullying simply stands out. As evidenced yet again by your sarcastic response to John on the final paragraph of post #41 on this thread.

That response alone earns him the benefit of the doubt from me.

Michael that word checker has been on the whiskey again.

Sad news with the passing of Jack Charlton, RIP, he gave us some great times, when he managed Ireland. He was his own man, and I remember him playing Paul McGrath and Mark Lawrenson together in midfield, probably our two best centrebacks.

By the way, I thought Overath was class, probably more influential for the Germans, in 1970 & 1974.

After hours of discord it's good to get back to what I enjoy doing, discussing football with like minded people in an amiable manner. It's not my way to be aggressive in speech, but I considered I was being unfairly treated, so it led me to take the course of action I did, but as far as I'm concerned it's water under the bridge now.

To get back to the reason you posted, I think that Jackie Charlton was a man's man, he appeared to be a great man to have a Guinness with, I can understand why the Irish people think so highly of him. I must however say that there were occasions when he played for Leeds United, that I did curse him.

I remember one game when I really lost it with him, it was a game at Goodison some time in the 60s, an Everton player I can't remember who, flighted a superb ball to set up an Everton attack, Charlton reached up and plucked the ball out of the sky, I was livid, and I can remember exactly what I said, which was, "I hate that kind of foul because you can't do anything about it, whereas if he kicks you, you can kick him back." I've mellowed a bit since then.

I hope you'll allow me to pick four players because I find it impossible to pick one. On the domestic front I have to go for Tom Finney and George Best.

Keeping to the 1966 World Cup theme, I would say Eusebio and Pele, but unfortunately we didn't see enough of him. Thanks for posting because this is what I enjoy doing most, I'm not a great fan of insult swapping.

There were 2 jobs in the Liverpool telephone area that summer: the installation of a press box at Goodison Park for the World Cup, and the other the press box for the TT races in the Isle of Man. My dad got the Isle of Man and my Uncle the World Cup.

I watched the World Cup Final on a tiny black-and-white TV in a farmhouse near Peel. My cousin watched the World Cup at Goodison Park from the press box.

Still, I did have my photo taken with Agostini and Hailwood.

Best non-Everton player I saw in the flesh: Dennis Law or Danny Blanchflower... but neither were as good as Mr Cool – Roy Vernon.

I ask this because I knew an Irish solicitor, and we used to talk about football, but, when I mentioned that it didn't seem right to me that English, Scottish and even Cockney Italians could play for Ireland, he got upset and told me I was jealous of his team. This was when they got to the quarter-final of the World Cup, which was ridiculous, because if Eire were playing England, I wanted Eire to win.

On to Jackie Charlton: good player, a bit of a character, and stayed with his feet on the ground.

A Liverpool team were playing a team from Leeds in the National cup, pub teams. The Liverpool team had a very well known character in their side, Harold (Fat Harold) Hughes playing in their side.

Anyway, the match was a battle, a blood battle. The match finished 3-3. At the end of the game, Harold went over to Jackie Charlton, who was on the committee of this team.

Harold said to Jackie, “Alright Jackie, good game, see you next week in Liverpool for the replay.”

Jackie said, “You're joking, aren't you, I've seen what you've played like today. Do you think I'd let my team travel to Liverpool? You can have the game, we'll concede it!”

He had a lot of sense, Jackie!!!

One day as I was sitting at Heathrow waiting for the Dublin plane, he came and sat near me. A succession of Irish lads kept coming up to him, one after the other, every couple of minutes.

The topic of each conversation was almost identical, as was his patient response: “Are you over for the football or the fishing, Jack?” “Woor. I'm over for a bit of fishin'.”

When they called us for boarding, he leapt in front of me. He was one of the first on the plane. Like the majority of VIPs (those were the days when they still had Business Class on Aer Lingus short haul) his seat was in the front row. However, since he had to put his bag in the overhead locker, he stepped into row 2. Row 2 was where I was due to sit.

As I arrived, he turned around, looked at me, and stayed exactly where he was. Presuming I was headed towards the back of the plane, he smiled, and politely motioned for me to pass by.

I said to him: “You're standing in my place. This is like the opposition's penalty area when Leeds used to get a corner. You're in the way, right where you're not supposed to be. Do you think I look like the effing goalkeeper?”

He seemed to find it quite funny. Well, it amused me, and I don't think I made it into his black book, unlike a certain Mr Morrissey.

But England, France etc, did the same... the funny thing was, Tony Cascarino said he had no Irish blood whatsoever and still qualified?

I always enjoy reading your articles and your posts as you are a season ticket holder and I enjoy the views of any matchgoing fan the most.

Do not let one person stop you from writing such enjoyable articles as I know many of us appreciate your time writing them. You have a wealth of experience watching games at Goodison and Happy Birthday for this week.

Cascarino thought he had Irish blood but found out his mom was adopted by an Irish family. It came to light a decade after he started playing for Ireland.

I always laugh though when English people complain about “fake Irishmen.” How about all he Caribbean, Asian, Antipdean, and Welshmen who've represented England in cricket with no English blood. Or for that matter all the non American “American” sports stars like Navratilova and Hingis. Or even for that matter all the legendary All Blacks who are Samoan.

Please continue, and happy birthday for next week. I think you are a great guy!

Maybe it's an inadvertent characteristic of the generation gap.

I hope so, because both gents are clearly passionate Toffees, who contribute so much to the site.

And what about the Indian father and son act for Glamorgan Cricket Club - Miandad.

It would appear I am still causing disagreement even when I haven't posted for a week.

On the exchange between Michael and Johnny Mac.

I don't normally comment on Johnny Mac's threads. I prefer to look out for responses of others of his generation. To listen and to learn. These are Blues I truly respect... but, that said, some of the outrage being expressed is seriously OTT.

Johnny Mac got a little older. He didn't get fucking stupid. You only have to read his stuff for confirmation of that. I'm not sure why so many people feel his posts can't be challenged.

John's proper old school. He would have been brought up to believe "Manners maketh the man". His manners would be deemed exceptional in any walk of life today. Within the football community, they are almost obsolete. That said, you don't grow up where he grew up without learning how to look after yourself.

I haven't been aware of any "history", and maybe a combination of niggly digs have earned Michael a virtual yellow card, but I see nothing in his original post to cause all this angst. I personally find the fact that he is now apologising for Zombie football more concerning.

John knows the deal. He will delight in positive feedback, but like anybody else who puts up an article, he has to expect the negative stuff which comes back too. People have very long memories on this site and if they feel something in your article is at odds with a position you have previously taken, they will call you out.

It would be daft for John to cut off his nose to spite his face and stop penning articles when he so clearly enjoys doing it. I've never had John tagged as "daft" and I fully expect him to continue.

Than again that was balanced by the extraordinary scenes I witnessed in Dublin when Eire came back from the World Cup, I was in Dublin that day, was it an extra Bank Holiday, or did Dublin and Irish workers just take a day off, anyway the streets and pubs were chocca and the jot was a sight to behold, my wife was amazed but joined in the gaiety, especially with the song dedicated to Jackie Charlton, she spoiled it a bit by asking me “ Who's this Jack fella?” One girl said to her” What part of Ireland are you from and you don't know Jackie Charlton?” My wife said “ Liverpool, it's the joint capital of Ireland with Dublin” That got them laughing, I think!!

Fantastic, I wish I could share it but haven't got the skill to get it on these pages, but great memories of Italia 90, Toto Schilatchi, and Ireland's finest footballing hour.

A trip down memory lane is good for the soul sometimes, so keep posting John Mc, and only worry when Michael stops trying to dig you out, whilst just being thankful you are not Dominic Calvert-Lewin!

At the end of the tournament, when Ireland had been knocked out in the quarter finals partly due to a mishandling of a shot by their custodian, Jack gave a talk to the team:- “Thanks for everything lads, we've had a great time, we've done well, the supporters have had a ball. Now go and have a good holiday. Oh - and Packie, the pope would have saved that shot”.

However I feel that when a statement such as, "When challenged" knowing that there was no challenge issued, you would dispute it. As I recall, it all stemmed from my decision to abstain from watching televised games staged in empty grounds, [when the pandemic was still relatively dangerous and people were dying] in order to safeguard the financial aspect of both League and clubs. I'll be upstairs in the spare bedroom today, listening to Radio Merseyside while my 'Good Lady' will be downstairs watching the game on TV.

The 'tiff' for want of a better word, goes back some considerable time, numerous sly digs and innuendos, but I have now drawn a line under it. I will however fight 'tooth and nail' if need be, to defend my integrity, and I'm certain you too would resort to the same to the same tactics, if you were in the same position, having said that you probably have.

Time to draw a line under your passive-aggressive twisting and turning.

I asked you two questions, one about players being or not being 'machines'? You wouldn't answer but instead accused me of lying.

Then, I questioned your denigration of TV companies, blaming them for the current state of football. The only thing you could come up with was kick-off times you didn't like, that I apparently countered too robustly and in a "personal and abusive" manner. Dazza, of all people has shown that not to be the case.

Meanwhile, you have continued with your snide comments on virtually every post, despite claiming to have "drawn a line" under it. Please be good to your word and desist. Thank you.

As a neutral, you've been making mention of Michael Kenrick and his apparent spat in multiple threads for a few weeks. Also even on this thread you keep harking back to it by explaining you're over it. I would also politely point out that the written word can be interpreted as being very harsh as opposed to the spoken word.

By all accounts you're a gent and I don't doubt that but over time as someone who doesn't know you I've seen a lot of remarks by you that could be viewed as condescending digs. For example, comments about people swearing, dismissing discussions of tactics. I am sure you don't mean to cause offense but someone who doesn't know you could view that as suggesting younger fans views are lesser or irrelevant than yours. Or that people taking tactics are boring or not somehow real fans.

So while Michael is curt to many posters, I think it's really truly time to let that disagreement go.

"Let it go, let it gooooooooooooooooooooo."

Years ago, I remember as a teacher visiting another school headteacher. He had been very disappointed by a training day when he sent all his primary school teachers to different schools to shadow their corresponding "talent".

Back at a staff meeting, all he got was a litany of things that his staff did not think would work at their school. A completely negative response from over 20 professionals.

He thought about it and repeated the exercise sending them to different schools from the first visits. On their brief was one question, "Write down anything that you like that you could incorporate into your classroom practice or into our whole school practice!"

What a difference to the staff morale and importantly for him as Head!

Michael, why not make it policy to accentuate and look for the positive! It's far more profitable!