Everton out of energy and ideas in standard defeat to City

No this isn't some daft romantic stuff about Duncan v Ancelotti. But very quickly into the match it seemed glaringly obvious that we were knackered, that Davies was having a poor game played in a position that he wasn't coping with and well, just being poor anyway. Reverting to a tight 442 long ball game would have played to the pathetically few strengths we had on show.

That we didn't do this until later in the game was I suspect down to Mr A's fledgling experience based on the two previous festive wins against opposition in our league, sadly. He needed to see first hand the vast gap in quality between these two squads. He might have thought that he could see his team handle possession and Delph do what he did in those previous matches, which made a difference against two teams having a holiday period to forget. But no, that wasn't going yo work here, particularly as some of the mini teams within the eleven were absolutely woeful.

Davies & Glyfi will I think not really come back from this. That's not being overly dramatic. But it is being honest. Both can and will have decent games if left to play a part for the remainder of the season but I don't think (hope) they are part of an Ancelotti future. Davies is an endless debate between “local lad made good” fans and many like me who I think are just fed up of his jumpers-for-goalposts style which initially looked ace and warmed your heart, yet evidence since that power goal v City at Goodison suggests he's simply nowhere near good enough.

Glyfi is just as disappointing but in a you know, much more expensive fashion. He was a stunning player for everyone until he arrived at our place then proceeded to be stunning for about one game in ten or worse. Successive managers tried and failed to find his right position. Both he and Davies would raise a few quid if sold now, tho frankly not as much as many might think.

Sidibe and Coleman ? It didn't work against quality opposition as space was harder to find and Sidibe just had one of those off days that do seem to be part of his makeup. But unlike Davies and Glyfi I can see Sidibe and Coleman still having a more consistent part to play under Ancelotti, tho Seamus will find he's squeezed by age and the much needed purchase of at least one ball playing centre back. I don't think Keane M will be at the club next season but Sidibe for as little as £8.5m feels a bargain and he and Coleman may still be the right back cover next year.

Disappointing yes, but instructive ? Very. Carlo Ancelotti has learnt a huge amount from these absurdly squashed up games.

Brands will try to offload one or two and Carlo will want to bring in a trusted CM. I can see us getting someone like Nzonzi in, initially on loan. Zeilinski from Napoli Carlo may try to entice probably in the summer [if not now], and I suspect there will be a few others under consideration.

This will be the biggest task Carlo has had since being an established manager.

Lyndon's 7th paragraph summed up the performances well...

I thought that Pickford had a decent game - once he realised he can't play a 40 yard dinked lobbed pass effectively.
Digne never threatened going forward - although some credit for the fact that City creates very little down his side.
Mina and Holgate were both run ragged - although I think they both held their position too much at times when Jesus was 2-3 yards away from them. Tighter marking could have prevented a couple of chances.
Coleman was decent, I was surprised when Sidibe stayed on.
Sidibe was poor throughout. Mendy constantly had all the time in the world to do whatever he wanted.
Davies struggled - although I still like the fact that he always looks forward and never hides. The vilification of him is still baffling when there were at least 3 others worse today. Fair enough he deserves criticism at times, but at least criticise everyone who played badly - not just the one player.
Sigurdsson- apart from the one pass for Coleman - was generally chasing shadows.
Delph at least looked ok on the ball, but all 3 central midfielders never got a look in.
Richarlison I thought had one of his worst games I've seen. Nothing came off, struggled with 5 yard passes and couldn't do a thing against Fernandinho.
DCL was anonymous for the first half but started coming into it more when we went more direct. He seems to be growing in confidence every game.

When we scored we upped the tempo and started to play the ball over the top of the City defence which troubled them and had Kean been a bit more clinical we may have got a very undeserved draw. Now I am sure at this time of the season games come very quickly and maybe we could see some tired minds as well as tired legs, maybe if we had Gomes and Gbamin available we would have had more energy in midfield.

I was a little surprised that when Bernard got injured in the warm up we just didnt do a like for like swap and bring on Walcott to replace him. I thought Holgate and Mina did ok but I am a little disappointed in Digne as of late he seems very reticent to overlap like he did so successfully last year. Maybe the injury is still not 100% back to normal.

But having Carlo Ancelotti in charge I know he will soon put things right, whether he buys in the Jan window I don't know but yesterdays game and Sundays will let him know if he already doesnt were he needs to strengthen the team.

The tank was empty and we were playing the defending premiership champions.

However, its games like this that shine a spotlight on our inadequacies. The main problem is that our premium midfielder in Sigurdsson went missing yet again. His form has really fallen off a cliff this year, is he carrying and playing through with an unknown injury or is he just having bad season?Plus although some on here get very upset if you criticise the local lads can anyone argue that Davies is good enough to grace the midfield of Everton FC? In my view he's simply not good enough, wasteful and naïve in possession and hasn't kicked on at all in his development. I cant see Ancelotti persisting with him unless he absolutely has no choice. Seamus Coleman is continuing his downward spiral and Lucas Digne also now has had more poor matches than good in an Everton shirt and needs to seriously buck his ideas up.

We don't know what condition Gomes or Gbamin will come back in so at the moment we are looking at a hefty outlay just to get us anywhere near top 6 standard. Once again over to you Marcel Brands.

If Ancelotti believes he can propel Everton into a top 4 position he will have persuade Moshiri to open his wallet again, but not to buy a around of drinks but buy better players who are at top 4 standard.

I was really surprised yesterday how bad we were when, in the few moments, we had possession. Forget the killer pass, creativity etc just the basic pass from one player to another was awful.

After the cup game, thankfully Ancelotti, will have almost a week to try and iron out some of our basic faults before Brighton

The transition will be in two phases:

1 What he needs to do the rest of this season is to do something that Silva and those before him by and large failed to do: Regularly and reliably win the games against teams we should be beating both home and away. He's managed that so far in the two games before yesterday.

2. Yesterday just emphasised the lack of real quality In the squad when we come up against the better teams. The next stage is to sign better quality players and compete regularly against the teams above us. That will come in the summer.

We won't win on Sunday, I just wish for once the law of averages would give Everton a break regarding the luck of cup draws and injuries.

Next season should be more interesting.

I've spoken to friends who support other teams for their view (Arsenal, Spurs, Norwich) on Davies and there's a common theme. He's slow, tries hard, is a dirty player (their view, not mine), doesn't do much of any note, bit of a workhorse, stupid hair, looks a bit lost, has some skill/ability, probably a Championship player really.

None of us are experts, but the view from the outside seems to be Tom Davies isn't really up to much.

It's hard to dislike Tom Davies, and I try not to take pot-shots at him. He's worked his arse off over Christmas that's for sure.

I suppose my take on him personally, is that I'm torn between liking the guy and realising his limitations. Harsh criticism is of course easy for us sitting at home, so I try to cut him some slack. I also realise my view of him is a little bit contradictory.

A) Our injury wracked, knackered team almost totally neutralised the reigning champions on their own patch for almost an hour.

B) Ancellotti has repeatedly mentioned our young, English lads as being a major part of his future plans. That includes a fit, refreshed, Tom Davies in his preferred central MF role. Very few on here questioned those comments last week yet the “local lad” has one poor game and the knives are out once more.

C) After going 2-0 down at the Etihad not one Everton manager in recent history would've changed tactics/formation and had a go like Carlo did. Under everyone from Smith to Silva that would've turned into a 6-0 rout, at least. We maintained our shape, spirit and kept our heads up.

D) We all know we need better players to go toe-to-toe with these teams but since Duncan and Carlo have taken over it's evident that our players now believe in themselves and in the management team. Our lads only had to look at the Man City bench to see the gulf in quality but still they stuck to their task which was, imo, frustrate city and grab a draw.

E) If you want to go all gung ho and get battered in the attempt then Ancellotti is not your man. He's a thinker, a disciple of Tsun Tzu, a strategist. He's not interested in going down in flamesgetting cheered off the field after a 5-4 loss at anfailed. He wants to win. So until he's got his troops rested, fed and replenished yous are all going to have to wait until we fight our own Austerlitz.

I disagree that he's particularly slow. He's quick enough for the position. He is not fast, that's for sure, but he's quick enough. His passing needs to improve. He tries to play more ambitious passes than he is capable of.

But other than that, I think he is more than competent at everything else. Sure, he is not the best at the club at most things, but his position is about doing most things well, and most importantly about driving us up the pitch. In particular, I think he's our most direct, most dynamic midfielder. What I particularly like is the way he links up with Calvert-Lewin. The way those two can play off each other, well that shows what he is capable of if he can strike up a prolonged partnership with players all over the pitch. He has great close control at times, sure other times he can trip over his own feet, but none of our other deep midfielders can dance through another teams midfield quite like Davies.

And that is another point. He never seems to get the same partner ever. When I thought he looked particularly good this season was when he had a little run as partner to Andre Gomes, and I thought they dove tailed quite nicely. Both were able to go box to box and both should fit in well into Ancelotti's 442 system.

I would like to see Gomes and Davies deep with Bernard and Iwobi ahead of them and Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison up top in the 442 double six (4222) that Ancelotti likes to play. I think he would play well in that formation.

The other thing to consider is that we are talking 21 year old Davies up against Gundogan, De Bruyne, and David Silva. When he was up against Newcastle and Burnley he looked a lot better. We tend to forget the quality of the players he is up against in the Premier League and his tender years.

Happy New year to all on TW

If Jack Cook reads this, many congratulations on the great news re your wife. I hope that her recovery is full, complete and speedy. Good wishes DC :D

Longtime lurker, and first time poster here.

May I make a point regards yesterday's game, this is the third game of a 4.5 year project. No need to panic or denigrate players yet.

We all know that the players we have, and that are currently fit, are not top 7/6 quality. As a team, though we have some players with ability and potential.

I've been lurking on here for just under two years and there is a constant theme of 'doom and gloom', and I would have to agree in the main. Yet, for people to doubt Carletto at this stage, and or even compare his tactics to DF's is ridiculous. It was quite evident what he what he wanted to do yesterday, hence the images of Carletto pointing upfield and shouting at the 'back 7' to get the ball upfield quickly.

I thought for the first ten minutes, when we had the energy to press fast and high up the pitch we did well, QED Seamus Coleman's break and shot on the right.

Yet from minute 10 onwards, we stopped pressing, we started standing like statues or even worse, started to back off, and from that point on until the second goal, we looked like lambs to the slaughter; well up until the 72nd minute anyway.

The constant passing up as far as Sidibe, Delph and Davies, before the ball came back to the CHs or JP; which more often or not ended up with a long ball upfield and City brought the ball back upfield, was very, very depressing to me. Even when we dispossessed City, the first action was to turn towards our goal and pass back..? I've coached kids with more 'attitude' and demonstrable ability and desire than our lads yesterday.

However upon reflection, I thought, as others have stated, that the players lacked energy, bravery in taking players on, lacked accuracy and precision in passing, and when Plan A failed (Passing out from the back), why didn't we use Plan B (Direct ball forward) with support thru midfield? Instead, we just continued to play negative, turgid, inaccurate football, and more importantly lacked any penetration after Seamus' shot inside the 10th minute; until the second City goal.

Remember this is a FOUR YEAR PLUS project

Personally, I feel that Carletto just needs to keep us up this season. We're 5pts clear of relegation, but the bottom clubs are all starting to play well, bar an injury decimated Bournemouth and NUFC; currently we're 5pts from 6th/7th and 11pts off 4th. Food for thought!

The most important thing re the playing staff is getting Brands, Carletto and Moshiri (& Bill?) all on the same page, firstly regards getting shut off the deadwood that Finch Farm has accumulated (Easier said than done) and then aligning the Academy to start developing first team prospects, rather than looking to win U23 titles. The two aims just don't mix happily, plus if we start developing 'QUALITY' young players, we'd save a fortune in buying players and we'd make money from sales too.

That has got to be the first step towards long-term success, yes, no?

As for the January TW, I'd be happy with an experienced CH and CM (maybe two if the price is right and we can offload two to four players?)

If Steve Ferns is right, and we're not going to see much of Gbamin and Gomez before season's end we're going to struggle with the current options in midfield.

By the way, in settling for 17th or higher this season, I'm not settling for mediocrity, I'm being pragmatic about where EFC are right now. Then come the summer TW, we should be looking to strengthen the squad to start challenging for a top 7 spot.

Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards, rather than banging your head against the wall as it were.

Remember this is a FOUR YEAR PROJECT.

To sign off, I just hope the lads can get some recovery in before setting off for Mordor, and I just hope Gandalf (Carletto) has enough fresh legs and minds to setup a team with the right tactics to challenge the Red Orcs.

Vest wishes to everyone, have a great 2020, try and stay healthy and prosper, and keep the faith

To the (interesting) long and winding road ahead, cheers ladies and gents,

Si

Yeah, and we 'almost totally' win the League every season...

The change required is monumental but I fear the delusion that this squad has "potential" will continue efforts in the Jan transfer window will soon show.

Carlo needs to grab the bull by the horns and begin a thorough clear out if not he will inevitably get the treatment the other well paid purveyors of "same old same old" got.

Sii coraggioso, Carlo

Chris 19- On one hand I agree with you about not expecting miracles and that Carlo is working with players who haven't been good enough for years. However if you look at Arsenal under Arteta he has already got them drilled with clear instructions, patterns of play and responsibilities which we haven't seen them do before i.e. Ozil was their top runner last night. As much as it is already clear Carlo can manipulate games through his tactical acumen, we need also to see an improvement in how we have been previously coached and the intensity in our play. This will be Carlos biggest challenge.

Steve 28- great defence of Tom and is well justified.

It's not an easy task to supervise on the training ground. Moyes did not coach the players to play the way you do not like, nor did Martinez, nor did Koeman, nor did Allardyce, nor did Silva and Ancelotti certainly won't want them playing this way. But they still will.

It's the "self-preservation" style of the modern player. In the past they got pressured and hoofed it. Now they under hit a short sideways pass. It's when the ball is like a hot potato and no one wants it, and so they get rid as soon as they get it. When they are full of confidence and playing well, you don't see it.

It's absolutely nothing to do with coaching in the first team, and everything to do with how they were coached as kids. It's the panic mode, get rid of the ball before I get tackled in a way no one can blame me.

Under Martinez there was too much sidewards and backwards passing but that came down to his belief in possession was king. Under Allardyce and Koeman they worked less on ball work and more on structure. If you look at Leicester and the difference Rodgers has made this is largely due to his progressiveness as they were still decent defensively under Puel and is largely the same squad.

I don't think these players are destined to play as they have done under Koeman, Allardyce and Silva. If you look at our back three all are quite technical players as are the wing backs. Yes players like Keane are lost causes but I'm sure they will be soon on their way.

I hope you are right and Carlo gets in a top coach as I don't believe just replacing players is the answer.

But that's by the by, we're going off point there. The point is the current players are not passing it around the back as that is what they are taught to do, they are doing it out of a lack of confidence and to pass responsibility, as they don't want to just hoof it down the pitch.

Martinez did want us to retain the ball, but he did not want us to play slow passes. Martinez wanted the ball to zip about. It's one of his key philosophies that the ball does not stop. He does not like players to put their foot on the ball. A passing team, like Guardiola's needs the ball to move very quickly, even if it's going side to side in order to try to wrong foot the defence and create the angle to pass through the lines. It's impossible to do that if someone puts their foot on the ball.

Delph was okay at helping to get the ball out of defence, but Davies and Sigurdsson struggled with the ball, and finding space, and Sidibe doesn't look that comfortable in the wide right position either.

It's horrible when you feel tired on a football pitch, and it's ten times worse when your team lacks that little bit of creativity, but we have got some good players, and just need a couple of better ones to get us up and pushing on, especially from the middle of the park?

If Davies is our most dynamic midfielder then we haven't got a cat in hells chance of competing with the top teams.

I don't dislike the kid and he always gives 100% like James says.

However, if Davies is the most dynamic player we have in midfield then we need a serious overhaul in that position and quickly.

Let's take stock: We are now being taken seriously, when we talk about making offers for James Rodrigues and Adrien Rabiot …. a few months ago, their agents wouldn't have known what country Everton was in!

We are clearly on the up. We have a manager, who is unquestionably, one of the game's great tacticians; respected by everyone else, including Pep and Klopp.

He is backed by a 'home-grown' deputy, who has just proved himself in the white heat of the premier League.

Sure, there will be bumps on the road [yesterday was one]… but surely there cannot be any question, that we are on the right road.

Top international manager; no shortage of funds; new ground on the horizon: Onwards and Upwards. For the first time in a very long time, we can say, without getting laughed at: Nil Satis Nisi Optimum!!

That very much how I saw Martinez and Silva. Unable to get over their ideas. When those ideas were muddled then it became very difficult for them to assert authority.

Ancelotti even in defeat yesterday changed things and those changes affected the game. Both Kean and Walcott were key to the goal. Some thing the above rarely achieved.

The belated change in tactics once the game ‘felt out of reach' was irritating because it was clear where City were weak, in the air and off second balls. The fact we hadn't tested that was borne out when Sidibé lofted straight to Kean and Rodri was the wrong side of him.

Sadly he didn't realize he had acres of space to bring it down and despatch it.

I'm encouraged that Ancelotti is having an immediate affect and its more clear that the some of players aren't good enough, especially in midfield were we looked decimated. Perhaps that were we need a loan or buy. If the Rabiot rumours are true that would help enormously.
It might dictate that we play more direct as we don't have players capable of keeping the ball in the middle.

Roll on Sunday. I'm taking a Kopite to an Everton bar fine sport if you can get it boys!

Who do you think these good players are that we have? I'm not having a go I'm just genuinely interested what your view is.

In my opinion for us to be able to push for regularly competing for the top 4 or 5 places I think we are looking at having to bring in a significant amount of players all over the pitch.

When you look at City and just watch how many times they play the ball first time very few need 1 or 2 touches as our players do. Yet although they pass at speed they don't misplace their passes like we do. Admittedly he has many world class players to play this way as he had at Barcelona and Bayern. I don't remember Martinez,s team zipping the ball about in fact it was his slow ponderous build up that eventually cost him his job. As Alex Ferguson says possession without penetration is useless, and thats what we had with Martinez a manager obsessed with Possession football.

It'll happen one day, won't it?

It's going to take time. Implementation of playing methods is going to take the right players to buy into it. We must not look at yesterday's game with anything but observation of how we kept the ball and decision making. It was shocking but the desire was there. What does this tell us? The summer should be busy.

Everton can compete with 12 to 15 teams in this league but to compete with all is a big turnaround. The club has started with employing a manager who has won everything. Again we just need to be patient. In all probability, it's got to be our turn soon.

Said exactly what I said about Klopps coaching. Its not genius at all. Pure hard work and commitment.

The best teams always work their socks off. Class is there of course but all this fuss about tactics and timing of subs with ipad information is a big gimic. Champ manager stuff.

A mate just sent me a great text. The difference in energy levels during the post match interview between Henderson and Van Dijk today amd Gerrard after that Chelsea slip.

They look like they have been for a lovely stroll and Gerrard is puffy and panting like a thirsty dog. (Henderson and Van Dijk are still on the pitch too).

Their sports science department must be doing something nobody else is doing.

However, having watched the Christmas lectures on the BBC presented by Dr. Hannah Fray, she spoke to the maths gurus behind Liverpool Football Club's winning streak to spill the beans on how analysing the numbers can give a team an edge in the Premier League.

It was a compelling if somewhat soul destroying account of the reality of the modern game. It seems that the analytical approach is as important if not a more important element of the game than the skills of individual players.

The data on every pass, run, tackle etc from every Premier League player from every match is available to all of the premier league clubs. The guy representing LFC said that everything including the purchasing of new players was done utiising this vast array of information. So these guys whose names we wouldn't recognise are the real power behind the success of most clubs - no longer will a Director's or manager's gut feeling be responsible for the failure of a particular team. Obviously our board must have bought second-hand out-of-date data when they made some of the decisions they have made in the last five years.

Them people are there to expose any and every advantage. We have a similar type of team now.

1. Would he be on Evertons radar looking to add him to our midfield as a player to develop.

2. How much would you pay for him.

Answers on a postcard please.

Everton always want to be a top team, and return to the glories of the mid-80's, yet since the introduction of the PL, the ultra-professionalism and huge increase in revenue streams to the higher rated clubs, means we've been like, please forgive the analogy, unwanted guests living off scraps.

Fundamentally, that is down to three things;

i) Lack of cash reserves and low revenue streams.

ii) A board that has been dominated by a single 'character', that although well intentioned, has not managed to keep the club up with the Jones.

iii) The club has failed to grow as exponentially as the more established clubs higher in the league.

We have a loyal fan base, but a small stadium limiting revenue currently; and as Paul the Esk (and others) have pointed out, Moshiri's spent money has just pushed us to the limits of the PL's Profit and sustainability rule.

In my opinion, we need a remodelled board, a new approach to marketing and market revenue streams, and finally appreciate that only success on the field will allow us to grow, yet, only by addressing the infrastructure issues, will we be in place to become stronger on the pitch.

It's a chicken and egg situation really.

Yet, I was always told, if you want to be successful, model yourself on a successful role-model and develop from there. I.e. we need to copy the best, and then recruit the best available infrastructure talent in order to kick on. I.e. Copy LFC (spits!) or MCFC, or one of the other big five league clubs like Borussia Dortmund or Lyon.

Just my thre'pence on the matter.

Personally, I think the club has lost its way since Moyes left us, regards playing staff.

Martinez, Koeman, SA, and MS have all added their players to the mix, along with the ill-thought appointment of Steve Walsh from LCFC.

All of those managers had to sell quality, in order to eventually bring in over-priced replacements to fire-fight the fact that after selling our best players we struggled.

Brands, Carletto and Moshiri need to sit down and work out what approach they want to take regards what is needed for the playing squad. Again,in my opinion, we need a balance of youth, established youth and quality experience.

The Academy wants to be addressed, with maybe an Academy Sporting director appointed to answer directly to Brands and Carletto. The U18s and U23s should be used to develop talent for the 1st team, and not go chasing titles.

I also, after reading through much of what has been typed here, hope that Brands, with Carletto's help, bring in a progressive coach to help develop the youth squads below U18. To teach basic skills, close control, vision, use of space, and develop the use of both feet. Much akin to Ajax, and most other junior teams and play on half-sized pitches, and no goals. The idea is to dribble or pass the ball over a 6m section of the opposite touchlines.

Steve Ferns hit the nail on the head above, that the players looked uncomfortable on the ball, and treated it as a hot potato, rather than a opportunity given to them.

We'll get there, but rather than repeat myself here, go and have a look at my comment above #32.

Best wishes Robert,

Si

How far do you think those players are going to get us though.

I personally don't think many of them would be good enough for a team competing regularly to get in the top 4 or 5 and win trophies.

Those players if coached right and with 1 or 2 quality players added might guarantee us the best of the rest tag but I can't see it competing over a 38 game season with the top clubs.

Ancelotti will improve Everton to a certain limit restricted by what you have described above. A winning team at any football level has the same level of competence both on and off the pitch.

In the case Everton the emphasis is on the pitch, with no effort to improve the level of competence off the pitch.

Kenwright is not a winning Chairman and after 30 years as a Director, never will be. Moshiri needs to implement the changes you have described now.

They should have been implemented on taking over the Club, but there has been a share holders agreement as a condition of sale of shares to Moshiri, to keep Kenwright in situ and effectively running the Club. Moshiri has only been able to establish authority, by insisting on conditions for further introduction of funds.

Moshiri is close to the limit where further introduction of funds can achieve this. His only

other option is to buy out the remainder of Kenwrights shares , which will be costly.

I remember hearing a story from someone close to Carragher, and he was saying Gerard, was wanting the games to come every day, rather than waiting for the next fixtures, which was emotionally killing him. He was desperate to win the league for his boyhood club, and had just made the monumental mistake which cost him his dream, whereas Liverpool have just had a week in the sun, and then a stroll in the park last night?

I'm not trying to take anything away from the present Liverpool team, (I'd look stupid if I was) but those two situations couldn't be more different imo, and I was called a “biased blue” off quite a few when I said Gerard should not have went to the World Cup at the end of that season, because he was emotionally drained, and I personally don't think he ever really recovered.

Their sports science team might be something different, but I remember reading Andy Cole's book, and he said it was a quiet corner of Carrington, that was the reason United scored so many late goals, after hearing Brian Kidd, saying “that's another one in the bank” when they were all on their knees shattered, after he had just ran them into the ground.

Nothing to do with Gerrard personally and along with the fitness you need quality.
Not every quality player is hard working though. All of theirs are.

Gerrard shouldn't have gone to that world cup either I agree.

A agree that the longer ball game would have been more effective.

Your mate is making the point in the difference between then and now, which is fair enough, but I personally think that Liverpool, have come on a lot more because they have now got a lot more good players.

Gerard and Suarez, dragged that Liverpool team forward, coming from nowhere to winning 14 matches on the bounce, but if your mate is a genuinely knowledgeable football fan, he will also be aware that Gerard was emotionally exhausted, but he's obviously imo, just glowing at how far they have come, as a team?

Digne, Mina, Holgate, Kenny, Kean, DCL, Richarlison, are all good young players, Davies is also a kid Who is only going to improve imo, but this will only happen once we bring in quality players with a certain mentality, and I'm sure it will because of the mentality of both the manager and his assistant?

Paul A's mate is right though, hard work is the key, always has been always will be, but as we have seen in the past, it will only take you so far unless it is combined with leadership and quality, the three main ingredients that “make” you win.

It's what we do in the meantime that's of relevance. I believe Spurs are the benchmark. For years they like us tried to buy cast offs from big clubs and players never going to be good enough for the CL. They then started from scratch and had a clear consistent strategy which the whole club bought into. They began to identify young exciting talent such as Ali, Vertonghen and Eriksen and built a young hungry squad who grew together with a chairman who refused to sell their prize assets and a talented young coach who kept them overachieving year on year.

Unfortunately we tried this under Martinez but when we overachieved in the first season largely due to loan signings the squad wasn't any better the next and wasn't fit for competing in Europe. We struggled, Martinez couldn't get results and instead we sell our prize assets, throw the baby out with the bath water and go down the mercenary route. We seem to be chopping and changing between managers and ideologies ever since.

Yourself and Steve have come to the conclusion that our players don't handle the ball because of how they have been coached as kids but I think this is a cop out. If you look at the midfield area which seems to be the bone of contention for most against City, Delph has just come from there, Gylfi played for teams in Reading, Swansea and Spurs that all looked after the ball and Davies who at 17 when he made his debut looked the most natural footballer on the pitch that day. We have Brazilians, French and Italians who are as culpable as our homegrown players of giving the ball up cheaply and going backwards, indeed the likes of Holgate and Davies are braver on the ball than most.

For me it comes down to what Paul A is talking about in terms of sheer hard work and clear patterns of play. For Steve Ferns at 50 to compare Martinez methods and Guardiolas because they are both possession based is misleading to my eyes. The lack of intensity and fruitless passing was a hallmark of his teams at Swansea and Wigan also despite his successes there. Guardiolas teams are using their passing in a more probing way to look for the kill and bamboozle defences and they have so much more aggression and desire in their play. I pointed to the work of Arteta at Arsenal because you can see already players doing what they haven't done under the last 3 managers and it's quite amazing the difference in such a short time.

Yes we need to invest in a greater standard of player but we need also to improve what we have got.

Barkley more talent than Davies, but I'm intrigued to see who will have the better career? Lukaku's goals over DCL's much better work-rate? Or Delaufoe over Richarlison? This squad has got loads of talent, but it's just missing some very vital ingredients imo.

The man management, fitness and may I suggest The Supplements they are taking now are far more advanced.

Henderson was in that same team. They have more quality now too of course but Chelsea Arsenal United have all failed to win the title in the last few years because of the commitment from quality players.

Our last manager had nothing but stick and recently players have hinted at messages coming across from the new manager being easier.

Every time a manager goes this happens. Doesn't it just show these players only play when it suits them or everything is in their favour?

I don't know how anyone could admire a player these days unless they are quality and commited like Ronaldo Messi and the Man City and Shite players.

One was an imitation and the real one was taking performances to new levels year after year.

All the stats and data mean nothing if you can't read between them. Its about making sense of the stats.

Again as my mate said last night, Pickford would have had the best and worst stats at Sunderland. Then its about dissecting the stats and summarising the player.

Klopp will never sign a player that hasn't got speed and superb stamina.
Regardless of how many passes or shots they complete.

Man Utd have over 200 that probably sell for more. That's over £20million just in boxes, that's before other corporate facilities (1878 club etc which generate thousands per year per fan).

Just in corporate facilities we are probably around £30million shy in turnover compared to the biggest clubs. Add that to a potential 10,000 extra match day supporters and we could be generating between £30 and £40million extra in turnover per year.

That is, obviously, if we actually sell everything!!

I don't think Bramley Moore makes that difference. The lack of corporate boxes there has got me alarmed to be quite honest.

I have only seen a handfull of fans point out the wasted space with the big glass window at the back where the seats at the side are higher. The blue boards behind the first bottom section look like they could be potential boxes but there are no plans for them.

The size keeps us with the 7th or 8th best revenues and making (by then) more than 25%less than Spurs make. And thats a friendly guess.

I got my head around it a while ago and never expect a finish above 6th unless the bigger clubs are in turmoil and we are on Fire.

2 or 3 of the clubs above us have had that turmoil for a couple of years and what have we done? Sold class players to them and bought what they don't want.

Its horrible reading and a negative point but thats the reality and we have to lower expectations because Bramley Moore is a long way off making us a success.

It doesn't happen overnight, he's moaned about the fixture congestion ever since he got here because he knew it was the biggest obstacle to his style of play, and he's still moaning now because Everton have had an extra days rest before the cup-tie on Sunday.

It's worked City had 3 games in 5 days over Christmas, and your mate has worked on you Paul, because I forgot they still have Jordan Henderson, whose only obvious talent, is his prodigious work rate!

Quite apart from the Einstein levels of genius that Klopp possesses, the extraordinary super-human fitness of the greatest club side the world has ever seen, it must be of enornmous help to them to realise that they can avoid giving away free-kicks and earning yellow / red cards due to the absolute awe they are held in by the officials, that most VAR decisions will go in their favour and every infringement by their opponents, no matter how slight will be punished to the limit all because they're a club that has the vast majority of the media behind it.

it also helps that the Premier League didn't want Manchester City to run away with the title and make it boring for the neutrals but despite having a massive lead in the title-race with over half of the season having been completed, I don't hear the same issue being raised about LFC.

May as well watch songs of praise on Sunday and those crazy Blues who bought tickets for the game may as well sell them on e-bay - after all we're only a rag-tag pub team in comparison to the other lot.

If you looked at my post it was something I had said about Klopps famous genius tactics for ages.

I have typed it in posts many a time. Last nights text was simple and short but came from conversations myself and friends/match goers have been having recently.

We didn't allude to any other players than the 3 in the videos it was just a good example of the differences in fitness levels. They were on the pitch and Gerrard 10 mins off it.

It was a dead simple text alluding to chats we had prevoiusly had and I thought it was a simple example to show the likes of yourself and other posters the differences in a friendly way.

I did say above I have said it ages about Klopps teams on here and made that clear so you could all work out I didn't see the message and was so enlighted I decided to work on it.

John 93 i said this on here after the Burnley game. We looked much stronger late on and again at Newcastle. That wasn't down to Ancellotti and again alludes to players putting it in when it suits them.

I was watching Watford the other day and it just highlighted what a shambles Koeman was as a manager he allowed Deulofeu to leave who is playing some really good stuff and what have we replaced him with, Walcott, Bernard and Iwobi. I think Moshiri has finally realized the only way a club can transform itself is to go and get a top class manager, thankfully he has done that in getting Carlo Ancelotti.

He always made chances.

The red shites recruitment has been very specific. Due Dilligence key.
Salah was always going to be class but has he ever worked so hard. I am not sure? At any title winning side that is a pre requisite.

People used to wonder why Sir Alex got rid of certain stars but if you become a too big for your team mates it won't be long before you think they work for you.

Quality with no hard work will always be tossed aside moving forward.

To Deulofeus detriment its why he isn't at a top side. No manager has got that through to him or maybe its not possible?

Can someone 'in the know' provide more details, please ?

We all hope that the money bags at Everton will do the same and help Ancellotti get the class players he wants in the very near future.

I think you guys also misunderstand the corporate factor. Everton have 11 boxes which are the ones behind the dugout with the balcony's. This is the top level of corporate and not the full extent of it.

See here for details Link

These are the seats Everton have tried to expand and are looking to expand in the new ground. We don't want to fill the stadium with mega rich fans, but we want our fans who can afford it to pay more for a better package.

If you look you'll see that to be in the People's club, you actually pay less than a standard season ticket for Arsenal and Spurs. So it's relatively good value. You can see the tunnel lounge on the new stadium video, which also allows you to view the pre match and after match interviews as well as watch everyone walk through the tunnel. No doubt these will cost a fortune but it's not a box with a balcony.

We do still have limited corporate facilities even outside of the boxes which will hopefully improve in the new stadium. The various suites we have aren't exactly top quality and are very limiting in capacity.

I believe that Everton plan to increase this level of hospitality considerably in the new stadium. I was told that the summer refit of the people's club was a taster of what it'll be like in the new stadium.

Man Utd have 140 boxes, and over 21 lounges, but I cannot find out how many "seats" that is for. By comparison we have 9 lounges, 2 in the Park End (retrofitted) and 7 in the Main Stand. The Esk says that we have 1,400 lounge seats and he speculated we would increase that to 5,000 seats. I can find no confirmation of any number for this.

Spurs Link
The Esk Link

Now that is a sit up and take notice post

And Paul A #96, yeah, he had fine game against Chelsea last week with a goal and an assist. He had those same totals, one goal and one assist, over his previous 14 games. That isn't "outstanding" for any team at any level. Del Boy will probably put up some fine numbers next season in the Championship, but he wasn't good enough for Everton, and he still isn't.

I'd fancy him to make more chances than Iwobi and Walcott put together.

If Usmanov comes in we can start looking at a much better level of player that is strong for 90 minutes and produces all the time.

Bottom line is though, bring Kenny back and give him a proper run in the side.

Robert, whilst I agree about Deulofeu, I don't think we necessarily need left footers. Richarlison is right footed, but is far more comfortable on the left. Silva wanted a left footed right forward as his plan was to have a front three where the wide men cut inside onto their stronger foot. If we go 442 or variations thereof, then Richarlison can happily play left, as can Iwobi, and instead it is a right footed right winger we need, although Sidibe has done a decent impression of one in the last 6 games.

Obviously Sidibe's buy option must be exercised at that bargain price, but a lot will be determined by whether Carlo thinks he's a potential answer at RMF. If Carlo considers him a FB only, then Coleman may be departing with Baines. Kenny offers the same style and qualities as Seamus, and he's nine years younger and a whole lot cheaper.