Everton U21s lose to Hartlepool in Papa John's Trophy

As a sufferer with more than 30 years of hurt under my belt (nearly half that time on TW), tonight l will be watching our beloved Blues live for the first time with my son who has valiantly suffered with me.

I know, it’s only the U21s, but my family just moved to Hartlepool from South Africa and, whilst this may not be Goodison Park, it's still freakin awesome!

If any fellow ToffeeWebbers are foolhardy enough to be there, look for a tall bearded South African sounding bloke in a Chang shirt with a teenage boy and I will buy you a pint.

The Hartlepool “saviour” manager Challinor just did an Ancelotti and buggered off without so much as a Thank You yesterday after Stockport fluttered their eyelashes at him; the word 'snake' has been used a few times around work today. The home support will be pretty vociferous.

COYB!

U21s tonight
LIVE STREAM: HARTLEPOOL VS EVERTON U21,

Papa John Trophy, live on the club's site for members etc.

Phill, I can't find this on the EFC website.

Ah, live stream now just opened.

My sound also crap but now okay.

Thanks, guys, got distracted by an online meeting I was supposed to be in and forgot about this completely! Maybe I'm actually burnt out...

Tyrer
John Astley Welch Campbell
Hughes Warrington Onyango Price
Cannon Dobbin

My sound is okay now too, Brent.

Cyril Knowles main stand. Wiki says the former Spurs player and later Hatlepool manager died of cancer aged 47. Good player as I remember him.

Brent @8,

I didn't know he managed Hartlepool or that his dad was a rugby league player, but I did know that his brother also played professional football. My knowledge of him only really extended to that Spurs song "Nice one Cyril".

He was the son of the rugby league footballer; Cyril Knowles, and the older brother of fellow professional footballer Peter Knowles.

Nice One Cyril

0-0 half time. A good test for the youngsters playing against older stronger players.

Playing tidily enough and neat in possession and passing, but mostly in our own half. Very little cutting edge going forward from either team.

Warrington impressing again. Onyango looks to be getting back up to speed after his lay off.

Lewis Dobbin not making much of a case for himself to be tried in the first team.

I think that's it, Jay, they're all looking tidy on the ball, composed, none of the rubbish of last night, but little cutting edge or anyone except Onyango and Warrington standing out.

Merciful end to the first half when the ref blew his whistle to end it, what a boring game to watch, nothing happening. Is the cameraman a recovering alcoholic drying out with the shakes? The camera is all over the bleedin' place, don't think I'll be back for the second half.

Barry (9), yes Peter Knowles younger brother of Cyril, packed up a very promising football career. I think he had been capped for the England U23 team when he packed it all in to become a Jehovah's Witness. I wish Iwobi would try his hand at this, it could be very rewarding for him. It would definitely be very rewarding for all of us!!

Nice one, Barry. Let's have another one.

Dave, if Iwobi did take that path, yours might be the first door he'd knock on!

Brent (15),

We used to get them quite regularly on a Saturday morning, haven't seen them for a while, maybe the Lockdown had something to do with that. I used to enjoy a little chat with them and converted a couple of them to become Catholics!!

I'd have large bucket of freezing cold water handy if Iwobi ever knocked!!

Dave, you're a cruel man. And you a left kicker.

1-0 down on 70 mins

Not the most inspiring of games. Hartlepool deserved their win.

The greater experience of Hartlepool told in the end. Significant that keeper Harry Tyrer was probably our MotM.

Good workout and learning experience.

Jay, Tyrer played very well. Thought that Warrington once again had a solid game.

I came back to watch the last 25 minutes... I don't know why – it was the same as before and no enthusiasm or energy when they went behind to try and get back in the game.

One of the big lads in defence turned his back as the Hartlepool player scored their goal. Who is the coach of this U21 team?

Unsworth!

Brent (23),

Thanks. Not very inspiring with this team, mind when you look at his other teams, there's not much to admire with them either. I wonder who assesses his work at the club and the other coaches at all levels?

Dave #24,

"I wonder who assesses [Unsworth's] work at the club and the other coaches at all levels?"

A fair question, Dave. A very fair question. If I only knew.

Good to see more positive reports on young Warrington, Brent. I really like what I've seen from him so far.

I've said this many times. What is Unsworth's role? Not a criticism, I'm genuinely curious. I thought he had been promoted. Yet he seems to be in every dugout, rather than overseeing the coaches who work for him?

Danny, although this game was labelled as U21, I'm not clear on whether we actually have an U21 squad as such??

Was tonight's (U23) squad just labelled U21 because the competition itself is labelled U21? So, as long as the team composition tonight meets the requirements of the U21 competition, then we can use our (young) U23 squad.

I'd agree with that Brent. I think there is U18s and then U23s. And I believe the club (Brands) is trying to bring them closer together. Like you say, maybe just a label tonight for the competition.

My guess is that Ferguson assesses Unsworth and Unsworth assesses him.

Well, if it works that way in the boardroom, why not?

So self-assessment, Don?

"You're doing fine, mate."

"Yes, so are you, mate."

Assessment done! All good. Check-box exercise complete.

Excuse my cynicism.

Ferguson - "I tell you what Rhino. Despite the statto's always trying to use the dead rubbers you against you. I just looked at your starting position when YOU were ask to bail the club out. Eighteenth eh ? I cant help but be impressed by the FACT that when you handed back control a few short weeks later, we were in a healthy thirteenth. Still the FFFF`s got their way and the Night king came in. How did that go ?"

Unsworth - "He was a complete disaster, Dunc. The crowd were screaming for his removal by the end of the season, He had us playing the worst football ever - up and till then of course.
I must say, I was mighty impressed with the way You took over too. Unbeaten eh ? and you had the place rocking. Still the FFFF`s got their way. Carlofantastico came in..... How did that go ?".

John Ebbrell. - "Thank fuck you two are only assessing each other. I think you may be the only other fuckers around here who ever won anything at this club. The rest of them have been fired out of a cannon, or snuck out in the night.
They've all had us playing zombie football and ALL left us in free fall"

Bainsey - "Why didnt one of you fuckers tell me it was a criminal offence to be an Evertonian round here ? The FFFF's have been going through my bins And if Moshiri thinks he can come to me to stop Rafa's free fall he can fuck right off".

Groundsman - "Guys. I think you are being a tad harsh on the previous managers and their twenty odd back room staff. Ok they may have left us in free fall, but I bet they didnt cost or spend much more than seven 700m between them.... Be reasonable here".

Moshiri - "Guys ! can we please knock these fuckin assessments on the head for a minute. Rafa looks like he may be going the same way as the others. Whose turn is it to rescue the club ?....Bainsey ?"

Kenwright - Would there be anything in this for me Farhad. If I hadnt have introduced him to Carlo, Bainsey wouldnt even be here"

A case for the defence, which is fair.

No personal slate here, just a valid question that is often pointed at managers.

If the academy isn't producing the quality required, who is assessing the people running the academy?

As much as valid criticism of managers is just that (valid), why is is a criminal offence to question those charged with producing players from the academy? And I don't give two shits whether they are Evertonians or not. Just as I don't the senior manager or the players.

If you want that, hire me. And for those who obsess about wages, I'd do it for free.

When you watch games like this, you can pretty much tell why none of these younger lads are knocking on the door of the first team.

As I said last week, if there was a new Rooney or even Barkley in the mix, then no manager would ignore such obvious talent.

There sadly isn't, and that's on the negligence again of the academy we are supposed to have.

Who's scouting our kids?

Why did Leeds end up with that Geldhart lad? He looks promising.

We are run like fuckin' Derby County.

I remember seeing Peter Knowles aged 17 playing for Chorley at Holly Park and even then stood out directing all around him.

Any news on the lad we got from Sunderland recently?

Unsworth caretaker record in 2017-18

W2 D1 L5

A rather fortuitous home win vs Watford and a couple of absolute drubbings in Europe,

And that's being generous given Allardyce had already been appointed for the final game. 4-0 at home to West Ham where I suspect a few were looking over their shoulders at the Main Stand.

Statistics... schmatistics!

Jim, that's the Devil's Advocate point. If we take individuals, emotion and personal preference out of the equation, when a manager hasn't delivered much in the space of 6 years (let alone the 3 months or 6 games some give our first-team managers these days), they'd be long gone.

6 years and Tom Davies. Maybe young Gordon. But both hardly setting the world alight and decent squad players from what I've seen so far. Barkley was our last genuine talent and he came through in 2010. That's 11 years ago and before the current establishment. Which should be questioned as much as the first-team manager should. Finch Farm has gone under the radar for too long, sat in its comfort zone in the knowledge no-one will challenge or question it. In my humble opinion.

Those who know me, know that I advocate youth development and I would throw just about everything into the academy as I believe Merseyside and the North West to possess amongst the best talent in the country.

To suggest it is paying for itself? Well, I don't know, but I'd like to see the actual figures on that given that one of Brands's first observations was surprise that our U23s wage bill was on a par with an English Championship Club. The 9th richest league in Europe and we were paying our U23s on that level.

Forget the reckless spending. It's not necessarily the transfer fees that kill you. It's the sustained wage bill. And we are / were paying our kids more than what they'd get in the 2nd tier of English football and most of Europe. Why go anywhere else if you can waltz around Finch Farm in your flip flops? Where is the incentive to succeed?

Academies only pay for themselves if they produce. Either for the first team, or through transfer revenue. They don't run themselves for free. The infrastructure costs money. The coaches and staff get paid. The players get paid. We should scrutinise what they are achieving (or not) as much as we do the first team. We are not producing. Well not to the standard I want for Everton Football Club.

Apologies. I'm still hurting from Monday night.

Oh, and I know it's irrelevant and, at the end of the day, it's sponsorship... but what an unfortunately named competition.

Unsworth and Ferguson are big fish in a little pond. Why risk an easy pay cheque?

If they really are as good as some would have us believe, why don't they go out into the big bad world, prove their coaching methods and either come back to us or take over at Barca and Real Madrid?

Somehow, I think they'll take the easy option until someone gets balls and moves them on from their 'jobs for the boys' positions

We complain about managers, sometimes before they even sign for us, the board get stick, and quite rightly, the players. However St Unsy and St Fergy can do no wrong.

I think Unsworth is the Academy Director, so should oversee the work of Ebbrell and Tait. Brands, as Director of Football, should be Unsworth's direct boss.

The comment above about Barkley being the one real talent in the last 10 years is a huge worry. What are we doing at Finch Farm? I made the point a few days ago – when did we last produce a goalkeeper for the first team... Andy Rankin in the late sixties?

Dave (38),

Just a quick question following on from your post, has any Merseyside born goalkeeper ever played for England? I can't recall anyone since the start of football after the Second World War.

Pure instinct and without looking, Dave, I don't think so.

Goalkeeper wise, I'd look to the North America market. They spend so much of their time playing "hand-to-ball" sports like NFL and basketball, that they produce natural goalkeepers.

Dave @39,

Just checked and not only has there been a Merseyside born goalkeeper played for England – he was born in Liverpool and played for Everton.

His name was Howard Baker who was capped twice by England, first in 1921 against Belgium then again in 1925 against Ireland.

We have others who played for us who were England goalkeepers but none born on Merseyside, they were Ted Sagar 1935-36, Gordon West 1968-69 and obviously Jordan Pickford.

Brian (41),

Thanks for that. Ted Sagar was Everton's goalkeeper when I first started watching the Blues as a very young boy. He was brave as a lion, Ted, who knew how to berate his defence if they made mistakes.

Gordon West was a good ‘keeper but made mistakes – although not as many as Jordan!!

Graham Mockford #36

"Unsworth caretaker record in 2017-18
W2 D1 L5

A rather fortuitous home win vs Watford and a couple of absolute drubbings in Europe,

And that's being generous given Allardyce had already been appointed for the final game. 4-0 at home to West Ham where I suspect a few were looking over their shoulders at the Main Stand.

Statistics schmatistics"

Aye, Unsworth pulled us out of the relegation zone through an average of 1.4 points per League match before Allardyce sent us sky rocketing up the table by achieving a whopping average of 1.4166 points per League match, despite the much greater experience & the far more favourable circumstances in which he was managing.

Dennis #44, have you just equated Unsworth with Sam?! That's not doing the case for Unsworth many favours!

Dennis,

He also saw us get knocked out of the EFL Cup and twatted twice in dismal European performances. The Atlanta game right up there in our hall of shame.

I'm not sure I'd be putting ‘I was slightly worse than Fat Sam' on my CV...

Lol, Brent! As Graham says "Statistics schmatistics" :-)

Them's the facts, but how they're interpreted or used is rather subjective.

Although, I'm quite sure that they're rather damning of Allardyce, regardless of how you view Unsworth's stint.

Yup, Dennis, that damned Allardyce. What an embarrassing period for us. I still can't believe we appointed that guy. Ugghh.

Indeed, he did, Graham. But, in all fairness, I suspect that Unsworth saw the League as his priority – indeed that might have been the instructions when he stepped into the role.

I'm not making any claims on Unsworth's behalf, merely adding a little bit of context. I think it's relevant, but that's just my opinion.

I don't think it means that Moshiri was wrong to replace Unsworth, but I think that it shows that his choice of replacement in Allardyce was a poor one. He may as well, arguably, have left Unsworth in charge.

Graham,

"I'm not sure I'd be putting ‘I was slightly worse than Fat Sam' on my CV".

And I doubt Sam will be putting "I was slightly better than Unsie" on his!

Dennis, yes, I think that would have been interesting to have seen Unsie appointed for a longer term and see what came of that.

Dennis

Fair enough, I’m not really too down on Unsworth, he was chucked in to do a holding job. You can’t judge a manager until he’s be given a fair run to get his own players in and a decent amount of time.

I was just reacting to Dazzlers normal hubristic interpretation that it was some period of untrammelled success.

Indeed, Graham.

I think that was one of the unfortunate aspects of Allardyce being appointed, amongst a few other unfortunate aspects! Maybe Unsworth would have really grown into the job and we might have been spared much of what has occurred since, who knows?

One thing I was confident of then, and still am, is that we wouldn't have been relegated – which at that stage was really the main objective for the remainder of the season.

Dennis, I don't remember the events at the time. Was Unsie offered a longer spell in the role? Or was the Allardyce appointment just foisted on him / us?

I believe the common view is that Moshiri turned to Allardyce in a panic after the Southampton match. Mind you, at least Unsie lead us to victory over the mighty Watford!

People love knocking Allardyce but I'd say he was among the best three managers we had during the entire 2017-18 season.

Kieran. I always feel sad that Allardyce was our manager.

Roll on Sunday. Let's disrupt Conte's day.

Danny,

At least we're luckier than West Ham in not adding Pardew to the Moyes and Allardyce experience.

Kieran, I agree he got us 8th, with a disjointed squad. So many go on about his size and appearance, but look at Unsworth, who's a lot younger.

Unsworth really is Roly from Grange Hill. Not a huge Joey Barton fan but he was correct when he said Unsworth doesn't look like a manager.

We all seem to have forgotten that Unsworth was manager for the match on 15 May 2016, so his overall record is actually:

W3 D1 L2

So 1.66 points per league game – and he achieved what no Everton manager achieved: he managed a team when Sandro Ramirez scored in a competitive match.

Unsworth has been there long enough and not brought anyone through except the odd couple.

Whilst that is only on par with other clubs, we do not give any a chance in the Premier League. I don't know if that's down to him telling the manager he has no-one up to it or the manager does not think they are worth a punt?

Suffice to say most Premier League clubs blood young players, just not us, and there has to be a reason why, but I do think Unsworth has had his chance.

r

I was training at Everton when Colin Harvey was replaced by Howard Kendall, and the people who were getting most of the stick from the fans, despite Harvey not being a good enough manager, were both Darracott and Lyons, neither of whom had any real impact at all.

I do think something is fundamentally wrong with the set-up below our first-team squad though, but that's just my own personal opinion.

It could be that a succession of recent managers haven't stayed at the club long enough to give the younger players a chance (being an Under 20 World Cup winner is no mean feat) but it's the lack of a style, and a lack of panache (when having the ball) that gives me the opinion I have.

People going fishing, always reminds me of the great Satchmo, and that brilliant infectious smile!

Tony #65 nice post. Interesting take on the set-up below the first team. And I'd love to hear more of your time at EFC.

Not forgotten, Phil # 61, just not the issue in the context of the 2017-18 season.

To muddy the waters further, Unsworth was, if I recall correctly, co-manager with Joe Royle for that last match of the season that you refer to.

Dennis, that's also a fact that some people prefer to ignore.

Further, immediately following the two seasons when the youngsters won their league, there was only one club worse than Everton in fielding any player the following season, 2019, that had come only through the ranks.

I enclose the BBC commissioned report on this, written by Simon Austion — 18 October 2019:

Game Time for English Under-21s in the Premier League clubs is at its highest level for 12 seasons.

"Data from the CIES Football Observatory, commissioned by Alistair Magowan for BBC Sport, shows that domestic U21s have made up 5.01% of minutes played so far this season, which is more than double the figure in Germany (2.28%) and almost double Spain (2.61%). This is the first time since 2007-08 that the Premier League has been ahead of its rivals on this metric.

Homegrown players (those who have been at the club for at least three seasons between the ages of 15 and 21) have accounted for 12.23% of total playing time this season – the highest level since 2011-12.

Manchester United are top, with homegrown players making up 37.4% of playing time; Spurs second (29.5%) and Chelsea third (28.9%).

Chelsea, who are under a transfer ban, have regularly fielded striker Tammy Abraham, midfielder Mason Mount and defender Fikayo Tomori this season, all of whom came through their Academy.

Bournemouth are bottom for playing time given to homegrown players, having failed to give a single minute to a club-trained player so far. This is perhaps unsurprising when you consider that they have a Category 3 Academy and no real pedigree of producing homegrown talent (these things take time).

Less easy to understand is the fact that Everton are second bottom, having given just 0.3% of playing time to homegrown players this season. The Toffees have won the Under-23 league for two of the last three seasons and regularly state that promoting Academy players is key to their philosophy.

Speaking shortly after being appointed as the club's new Director of Football last May, Marcel Brands said he wanted a manager who believed in youth.

“I think it also has to be a coach that wants to work with young players,” Brands said. “If we have the philosophy about our Academy we don't have to choose a coach that only wants to buy players.

“It is also important, maybe not now this summer, but the summers after, that our own Academy plays an important part in that philosophy.”

Marco Silva was appointed a month later, but has hardly played homegrown players. In the summer, full-back Djibril Sidibé arrived on a season-long loan from Monaco, with 22-year-old homegrown player Jonjoe Kenny going on loan to Schalke."

WOW!

That's a pretty serious indictment of Unsworth and his ex-player pals as far as I'm concerned. And even Darren Hind agrees in his own peculiar way when he challenged me in the Paul Jones' piece (cited above) to name just one of our Academy players who'd gone onto significant careers post-Unsworth.

Neither he nor I could.

Speaks volumes methinks!

Had a lot of time for Unsworth the player, but he'd never in a million years make it as a Premier League manager, and deep down he probably knows that.

When Allardyce arrived, in his first few games he simplified things defensively because we were absolutely shipping goals, left, right and centre.

I honestly believe if Unsworth had been in charge at Anfield, we'd have been tonked 5-0 in that match, Allardyce did manage to organise things so that we held them to a respectable 1-1 draw.

It's the same with Big Dunc really.

The question is why he hadn't gone out there and tried to get a job in a lower league? If Joey bleedin' Barton can get a job, then why not Ferguson?

He prefers to sit on our bench, year-in & year-out; why not take on a fresh challenge where he is the main man?

I think with Dunc you'd get that gusto style of play for the first two or three games. Yes, the fans would love it, but what then when you are 3, 4, 5 months in and the players have decided to stop running through brick walls and the novelty has worn off?

Nah, I think neither the two would work long-term as managers – and they both know it.

I honestly don't think you can blame Unsworth for Kenny being allowed to go out on loan, to be replaced by a right-back from another country, and think that at a different time, a time with more stability inside the club, that things might have been different.

What Don highlights in the above post is that Brands has said one thing, but allowed the complete opposite to happen, confirming to me that lip service is very rife in football.

Hope you enjoyed your first game, Derek. Shame we couldn't win for you, but you had better get used to that.

I also believe Ferguson couldn't sustain his run of results in the long term. Novelty value is a powerful thing. Duncan should definitely go and manage in the lower leagues and prove himself.

But, he's 50 years old, or near enough. That's very old for your first post. I think both Dunc and Unsy have missed the boat and will spend the rest of their careers as coaches. Probably here.

Don's post is pretty telling.

It begs the question(s) to which I don't have the answer:

1. Are we not identifying and recruiting the right talent? It would seem not as multiple, experienced managers have thought not.

2. Is it the coaching staff at Finch Farm?

Either way, it strikes me that, after a decade or so, something needs to change. And this is aimed at the academy. You get judged on output. The output hasn't been good enough. And that isn't Danny the Evertonian's view, as above, countless managers appear to have the same view.

Kenny. I still see a player there. If you'd have asked me even a year ago, I'd have said no. Not at the level I want Everton to be at. But right now; why not? Give him a run. One thing you'll get from him is desire and commitment. And if we need to go 3 at the back, he is an option as wingback, a position he played for Schalke.

I've read a fair few comments and the stats speak for themselves.

Many reasons are as a general development of EU employment rules over the last 20 years.

Getting a great talented player at any club is rare. But producing a player that can be good enough for the Premier League should be a given and yet very few breakthrough at any club.

I'm less interested in Chelsea and Man City because they buy the best European kids and have for many years illegally enticed the best of British. Therefore, a decade later, both currently have the best young British talents with a few exceptions.

But the main reasons are:

The global appeal and increased enticement of money have improved standards of every top-flight team. This makes it harder for youngsters to breakthrough.

It often costs less to buy experienced players from abroad than homegrown. In 5 years time, it may be proved Brexit has impacted this.

Lack of time to develop players as instant results are demanded – so buy experienced players.

Risk averse managers whose lack of time, plus the pressure for instant results, go against giving youth a chance.

Bosman. Young talent is lured away far easier for first-team opportunities. Germany have a great track record recently. Develop good young players in an easier league.

We lost Small to the Saints. We got him from a Midlands club. Happens more often now.

As for Everton. The best local young talent opt for the club with the best facilities, money, winning record and pathway to the first team and success. Sadly, Liverpool, for many decades, have had first pick and are seen as a better option. How many young Evertonians did we lose in the 80s, 90s and onwards to them?

We have closed some of the gaps in recent years but it will take time to be considered equal.

Derek #1, from SA to Hartlepool, what a culture shock!!!

Dazza, like it or not, you do agree with me on many things, such as Kenwright's sleazy mediocrity for instance, and the admiration we've always expressed on TW for Calvert-Lewin, but as ever, you never let the truth get in the way of you displaying another laughable tantrum, do you?