U18s crash out of the FA Youth Cup at Old Trafford

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Nash,
Mallon Welch Campbell Samuels-Smith
Price Butterfield
Mills Metcalfe Okoronkwo
Sherif

I'm not sure if we'll play 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, 4-4-2… we'll know soon enough.

Is Charlie Whitaker injured Phill?

I am also disappointed with the lack of style that I see, when watching the younger Everton teams Robert, but at least these younger kids know how to roll their sleeves up, and get stuck in, (something the first team are badly lacking) and this could possibly be, why Everton have got a great record of producing players, that go on to have successful careers in the lower divisions?

Sorry Michael, I didn't realize someone asked that question last week, and was reading the thread backwards, which probably makes a lot of sense for me, mate!

What a good goal by Okoronkwu.

Must be Tony, on Monday he has tweeted “get me back” and a 🙁.

He hasn't featured for a few weeks now. Hopefully it's not too serious.

Harsh penalty given to Utd 1-1 after great Everton goal

Tonys, yes Whitaker is injured.

Poor decision I'm giving that penalty decision against us. 1-1.

Nice to see the officials as always are quick to point to the spot when its against the Blues - I thought it was a harsh award - but at least I know that I'm biased.

This is what I meant to comment on earlier. Give us a lift youn blue boys.

Should have had a two goal lead and then concede a sucker header, how bloody typical.

All feels horribly familiar! Not great defending by Reece Welch for that second goal, let a smaller player get the leap on him.

Tony, yes, I really enjoy all of the u23 games I manage to catch because of the work rate and good attitudes. I'm sure that does stand them in good stead for decent careers. If you could inject the same spirit into the first team we'd be flying.

I was watching the game then had to give them my details which they wouldn't accept so can't get it back on.

Thought the pen. was a very harsh decision then the second goal down to the centre back but thought the ‘ keeper was rooted to his line and could have come out for the centre, like another ‘keeper we all know.

Has anyone else had trouble getting this game on, I am a season ticket holder.

Entertaining half from both teams.

Nice combo between Sherif and Okoronkwo for our goal. Poor call on the penalty for them. Sloppy conceding of their second goal. First Campbell not tidying up the ball on the touchline, then Welch too easily outjumped on the header.

Mills as ever playing well. So too are Sherif and Okoronkwo. We have it in us to get back into this, but as the half went on United's midfield started getting more of a grip on the game.

Dave
I haven't had any issues with tonight's live feed, I logged in to the site and then clicked the link.

At the moment at u18 and U23s we seem very disciplined, good shape etc but our midfield never seem to boss the games. I'm hoping our young attackers will turn it around this half…

Looked to be doing well this half but Man Utd stole one there with a determined attack. We blocked two shots but the third was drilled past Nash. 3-1.

Man Utd attacked again and hit the post! Mills with a second poor delivery before that.

Michael @19

I switched it off when the third goal went in, it's so difficult to get any joy watching any Everton team lately.

I only caught the second half, Barry, but they seem to have been desperately unlucky. Story of our lives at the moment!

Finished 4-1.

Small point but disappointed with Metcalfe tonight. Difficult to read attitude but he didn't seem to have that tonight.

Won and lost in midfield. The run of the ball wasn't kind, but they were clearly the superior side. The U23 regulars didn't bring their 'A' game into this one.

Just checked on the Hearts scoreline. Simms has got his second goal for them tonight. Currently 1-1 v Dundee.

Beaten by a better team. Same as for the U23s defeat against Spurs in that Jenson Metcalfe is the one bright spot at the moment.

Seems like the kids got punished really harshly for failing to take their chances, especially in the first-half.

I don't know if the United lads are slightly older than our lads, but the difference in physicality between the two teams, apart from a couple of the Everton players, was very noticeable.

It sounds like they've been unlucky, even though the score-line doesn't really reflect this.

Phill, it's seems like they must work on this aspect of the game, a lot more than they work on the skill/technical side of football, and I personally think this is something that is very noticeable when I watch our younger teams play?

Jay #24,

I've seen most of Simms matches, 2 x 45 mins, 1 x 90 mins before tonight, he makes a big difference to Hearts even when he doesn't score. He s doing well out there.

Tony, yeah agree. I came across what looked like an U13/14 game on artificial surface the other week, both teams were disciplined, stuck to their formation but not a lot of pure individual skill or risk taking.

Man Utd are a younger team we were told tonight. I watched all match, and yes we were unlucky at times but the difference in class was huge. Even Snodin said Man Utd were the better team, with better players, and fully deserved it, and they were.

We do everything at 100 miles an hour; Man Utd build up, quick passing, triangles, players into space and phew a shot, a goal, they could have had 7 or 8 by the end of the night.

We don't have players who use their brain, guile, movement. Not just at this level but U23s much the same: defend deep, 2-3 midfielders who try to break quickly with quick forwards, but basically kick and rush.

I only watch a little bit of academy football, Phill, but it genuinely leaves me feeling very frustrated if I'm being honest, and for all the reasons you have just mentioned, mate.

It's like they are learning from a coach who is taking everything out of a book. I understand and appreciate discipline, but surely the best way to learn, is by playing free?

I think you learn from your mistakes, if you're allowed to play with a bit of freedom (99.9% of us will only ever truly learn from our own mistakes). Instead of learning nothing, except actually being scared of making mistakes. It makes me despair.

Tony, I had a similar conversation at my Walking Football game yesterday about coaching – it's like the coaching badges are all done to the exact same syllabus – play from the back, keep possession even if it means passing back, when you lose the ball switch immediately to a defensive formation etc. It all seems to make for well-disciplined young players, but …..

I was thinking about last summer, when England blew Italy out of the water for the first 30 minutes at Wembley in the European Championships Final, Phill, but then the Italians took over and gradually wore England down, simply because they were much more comfortable on the ball.

English football seems to be getting a lot right, but the very early years should just be about having good coaches, concentrating on learning little kids how to enjoy the ball, and that it's not just all about scoring goals. Another contradiction, I know!

This thread is as good as any to share this story:

Tranny Fans Rave About Loanee Lewis Warrington Debut

I was disappointed Warrington went to Tranmere, just because they play at such a poor level where Mason Holgate might look competent, so I'm not surprised he is shining. Even Garbutt dazzled at the lower end of Tier 2. But hopefully he will adapt to the physicality and come back to Everton as the first worthwhile homegrown player since Rooney.

Phill, responding to various comments. You watch tonnes more football at this level than I do - but make the same point that's been nagging at me. We have good individual midfield players in Onyango, Price, Warrington etc but I've never seen us boss a game from midfield.

I wonder if it is down the the very formulaic coaching you describe. It's coming across as stifling as the discredited Charles Hughes kick and rush stuff.

Pointlessly knocking it from centre half to full back to centre half does not make us Barcelona.

I see us play out from the back (shakily) and then end up in the midfield scrapping it out to retain possession.

There's no oragnised transition of the ball up the pitch, one twos, movement etc.

I'm convinced these young players are capable of a much more sophisticated brand of football, but are held back by the same approach to football that you might get in non-league football.

Jay 34.

We needed a good news story, sounds like he made a very good impression and controlled the midfield. Ironically, just the type of midfielder we need at the moment.

It will be interesting to see how he develops at Tranmere now he will possibly be targeted a bit more when in possession. If he continues to look a cut above, he's the type of player that Frank will be watching very closely in pre-season to see if he's ready to make the step up.

I was talking about this the other week, Robert, and I described our Under-23 team as being incomplete. It's like they have got half of the plan right but have still got a massive amount of work to do on the other side of the plan.

Maybe it's because we have got a lot of young players all suddenly thrown in together. Like Phill says, the shape is very good, but the more they advance up the pitch, the less idea they seem to have, and often play with a centre-forward who is very isolated.

Kieran on another thread has spoken about getting rid of the academy, and although I can see where he's coming from, I'd go the other way and put a lot more time and effort into it.

But first I'd be restructuring the coaching because I have a very similar opinion to Robert, and also because I believe that the right people can teach kids almost anything.

Paul Trait, Everton's U18s coach, said the lads didn't do justice to the way they can play, they seemed nervous and leggy he said but they will learn from this game.

I understand that to a point with two of the lads only 15 years of age, Samuels-Smith and Sherif and Metcalfe only 16, but I would like to know what the coach has learned himself in the last few years he has been coaching this team?

There is very little individuality about how the players operate and playing out from the back is nearly as poor as the first team. It's like, as someone said earlier, ‘they are learning it from a textbook' – just not doing it naturally, not pleasing to watch, for me at least.

They were unlucky at times last night, didn't see the full game, I didn't think the penalty decision was the right one, and we were unlucky with a few efforts hitting the woodwork or just off target.

But United played much more as a team and were deservingly winners although helped by slackness for the second goal and, after the third goal, we were always chasing the game which didn't help our case.

I feel these boys could be helped better by giving them a free reign, with the ball, when they join the club at a very early age and let see and know how enjoyable it is to play football and then let them learn as they grow older what a rat race professional football is in the Premier League, and be more prepared for it.

Plenty of players in the first team are not prepared for it by their performances this season and most of that is because they haven't been educated football wise how mentally tough this league is to play in.

I think that most teams play similar styles because, for some unknown reason, some years back Fifa and Uefa decided that, to be able to coach at any professional level, you needed to have passed your A & B Coaching Badges.

I read the other day that Ancelotti has to go and renew his coaching badges, how laughable is that! A man who has won everything as a coach as well as a player, has to resit his badges. So who is qualified to asses if Ancelotti is qualified to hold on to his badges?

I don't know who runs these courses but there is nobody in World football, not even Guardiola, who has won as much as Ancelotti.

These badges seem to be a complete waste of time and that's maybe why every club plays the same way, because all the managers have been on these courses where no doubt it's the same routine, irrespective of who is taking the course. I would love to hear if anybody on ToffeeWeb has got experience of being on one of these courses

Barcelona coach by reference to spaces on the pitch, broken down in a grid. When the ball is in a certain zone on that grid, then all other players must occupy certain other specific zones. This enables passing triangles, overloads at all times. They treat attack like we treat defence, something which can be organised. In the UK attack is often built around physicality (speed or height) and the individual flair of players.

Dave, free reign is good in the sense it replicates street football and the stifling type of coaching we see. However, it is not as good as genuinely progressive coaching of how to move a ball up the pitch in order to create goal-scoring chances.

I think Dave is talking about the very early years Robert, but I'm not sure. One thing I am sure of though, is that you will only become as good as the coach who's coaching you, and too many young kids seem to be getting stifled.

My youngest son has started playing football, under 8's, and I see some fantastic young talent. I saw one kid, couldn't take my eyes off him, because he his so natural, and said to this fella watch this kid. The kid got the ball, went past three players coming inside from out-wide, then put one in the top corner from 12 yards.

I watched the kid last week for ten minutes, and it might have just been nothing (I'm aware kids are like yo'yo's) but the kid stopped the ball and started looking around, before giving a bad pass, and it made me sad because I know he's been going to different academies, and my own feeling/worry, is that kids with natural talent are getting coaching that over complicates, natural talent.

I might be wrong, but when a 7/8 year old kid starts playing on the back foot, or stops doing things that come natural, it's definitely time to look at who's training them, imo.

Brian (40), think you're talking a lot of sense Brian in the way that kids are coached these days, as you say all from the same book, I saw great natural players come through this FA Youth Cup, from the beginning with Duncan Edwards and Derek Temple leading the way followed by Sammy McIllroy, Jimmy Greenhough from Leeds, Phil Thompson Harvey, Husband and Hurst not to mention Rooney from Everton and plenty more from around the country, they might not have flourished the way they did if half of these coaches with badges had got their hands on them and stuffed their football brains with their idea of how to play football.

Robert (41) Robert I meant kids who were very young and were in love with playing football, where do you think the greats of football through the ages learned the skills of playing football, in the streets, tenements and bombed areas of where they lived and they also learned to play it rough in those long gone places and they were all the better for playing and learning that way.

Some great comments here.

Brian @40. I'm totally against the Dads coaching their lads team culture that still plagues our grass roots. Unqualified louts with little understanding of developing young footballers and just want to win for their own egos more than anything else. In that sense there is logic in coaching badges. But I do agree with you, it shouldn't be the benchmark. Footballing nous and knowledge should be. Can you imagine the assessor who has to re-certify Guardiola? That would be an interesting hour session!!

The badging has become a money making industry in my opinion like in other walks of life. If you show a certification, you are qualified. But in many ways, it just means you've passed an exam. In my profession, I look beyond that and for experience. That often beats a certificate about 75% of the time.

That aside and on some of the other discussion, let young footballers be natural. Let them develop naturally. As youth coaches, develop them as footballers and don't be obsessed with results. Let them make mistakes. But coach, don't criticise - that's how they will learn and retain the confidence in their ability. Don't knock it out of them. Nurture and mentor it. Guide them on how to improve. Mistakes happen, but don't crucify them for it. Tell them what them could have done differently to influence the game and improve as a person and a footballer.

I could go on all day about this, but I won't bore you all!!

Danny

I read your comments on another thread about not allowing kids to join professional set ups till there 14, I have banged on about this for years. Trouble is I came from an age were we used to play in the street or on waste ground, which helped to develop ball control. Were now we see kids of 7 and 8 joining academies of professional clubs utter madness. I know some years back I was talking to a guy whose son was at Evertons academy, I think he was 12/13 and he was forbidden to play for his school team.

The problem with that is there is these kids at a young age learn more about positioning than playing, yes an important part of the game to learn but often I fear of a kid having to play to a system. I know its going back a while but Fred Pickering started life at Blackburn as a full back but the coaches there switched him to centre forward and he went on not only to play for us but also for England. I don't read too much of that sort of lateral thinking going on today. I am sure Dave Abrahams who has a far better memory than me will probably know of many cases back in the day when players switching position was more commonplace.

I've said it a few times on here, football badges and certificates are like a union card years ago, you couldn't even get on some sites to look for a job unless you had a union card, having a union card didn't mean you were a good worker same as these badges don't guarantee that you are a good coach but they could get you work training kids not always for the kids benefit.

Although past greats came from street football and favellas, Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain etc seem to have relied on elite academies for many years now. South America has highly developed academy systems so I understand it. Africa too. Foden, Vinicius, Rodrygo, Gavi, Pedri, Musiala etc are all academy graduates (probably from a very young age, but I don't know for sure) and I doubt any of them would credit street football for their emergence.

Times move on.

Ajax work with kids from within a 30 mile radius of the stadium and expect them to have mastered technique by, I think, age 8.

This is done through brilliant, progressive coaching.

I think the British experience of coaching is so bad that we can't see the benefits of it, and are effectively saying its so stifling it's actually better not to be coached until you're older.

I think foreign fans / clubs would find this a weird mentality - asking instead, why don't you just train better coaches.

Brian, on your latter comments, the Dutch intentionally move young players around the pitch from a young age and give them experience in different positions. Because you simply don't know where they are going to end up ability wise or physically. We tend to decide early where a player plays. But if they've never played there, how will you or they know?

Most important, let them enjoy football. In a natural environment. With a focus on development as individuals and footballers. Not chasing the dream and the pressure that comes with that. Not because the coach is screaming at them to win the local U-12s cup final.

I haven't watched the Rooney programme yet, but I do have empathy with a lot of young players caught up in this bubble the elite game has created. Which is obviously different from sympathy, as I know they get to have privileges some of us dream of. But they and their families also sacrifice a lot.

I agree Robert and that is the point I'm probably consistently trying to make. An academy system versus an academy.

Satellite clubs sponsored by the club that feed into the main academy. Clubs supporting grass roots but benefiting at the same time.

Slightly separate but as we're on the topic of youth development, I'll right up about a fantastic session I watched a Dutch coach deliver to 6 year olds. All about how to care for and treat the ball as if it was your pet dog. Outstanding. Look after the ball from a very early age. Not get rid of it.

Robert (47)I don't think we are asking for kids not to be coached until they are older, but to let them play naturally until they understand football properly round about fourteen, until then let them get to know all about the basics of football not be filled with all sorts of complicated, to kids, plans and ideas of football.

At one time in Holland, I think, kids never played for cups and league titles until they were around twelve or thirteen so they were learning the game while enjoying it, don't know if that still applies in Dutch junior football.

I know Dave and I come from a different age group than Danny or Robert, but for me there were more talented footballers in the 60s and 70s both here and worldwide than we produce now. Messi and Ronaldo have impressed in 2000 and after but not many. As for coaching I think more players in the era I am talking about were more 2 footed than todays generation. Bobby Charlton a prime example I have never seen anyone before or since Charlton who can hit a ball as accurately and as hard with both feet as he did from 25 yards. Pele and Maradona for me were exceptional and probably the 2 best players I ever saw, both had amazing talent it was even a pleasure to just watch Maradonna go through his pre match routine.

I think they're still out there Brian. We just need to find them and develop them.

I never really witnessed Pele, but his legend speaks for itself.

I'm with you on Maradonna, but for me it will always be Cruyff.

Dave

To your point I was talking to someone from Sporting KC this week whose academy played a tournament last summer versus Everton, Porto and another club. He didn't know I was an Everton fan but he was surprised at how poor Everton were technically. He said it was all 100 miles an hour rough and tumble stuff. He reckoned (although I realize he may be bias) that the Sporting KC kids were better technically than Everton. Although he also said Porto were light years ahead technically.

To Brian and others, I don't particularly see coaching or the modern player as an improvement on the past. Quite the opposite. It's just the best way now to develop kids who might otherwise be playing on phones. I agree we're losing artists from the game for a variety of reasons.

The best artists I have seen (other than as quite a little kid) are probably Savicevic, Zidane, Del Piero, Ronaldo (Brazil), Ronaldinho, Iniesta, Bergkamp, Henry and Messi. Ronaldo is of course insanely brilliant but very robotic too. It's nice to see true artists express themselves for more than just the glory.

That's why we're probably all disappointed that Rooney left us to become effective instead of extravagant.

Robert

Good list but I'd include Hagi. He could never be bothered at club level but for Romania he was magic.