To me our problem is that we have too many "luxury" players. In this game, neither Lukaku nor Mirallas helped to build possession and Ross, whilst having some good moments, also has a tendency to go for an individual piece of skill rather than build pressure on the opposition and create chances. Against a team as well schooled in possession football as Swansea, this meant that, for long periods, we were almost playing with eight men against a unit of eleven who knitted together as a team.

We got three goals courtesy of the players who played as individuals (Ross won the penalty) but the likes of Dyer and Bony (now they would be good buys) were far more effective than Lukaku and Mirallas. I like Kevin but thought he had an awful game with a poor first touch meaning that very little stuck to him.

Ross looked good surging forward but isn’t yet the playmaker we need to play in front of James and Gareth. I have no doubt he will be and as we keep saying this team is a work in progress and there will be blips. Overall it was nice to see that, whilst not really on our collective game, we did score three goals and won!

But after, today's performance, we look as bad unfortunately (typical Everton)!

From my vantage point of watching through closed eyelids and waking to see the score, I sympathise with those who have paid for season tickets. We all want to see us win by playing attractive football but this was another valuable 3 points.

Out of seemingly nowhere, the crowd woke up a bit and gave with the backing.

Distin had a shot blocked off the line, then, as is our wont, had to race down the other end to put one out of play, then made a Neville on Ronaldo-esque tackle to set us up for the '5-min spell'.

Key point: We had upped the intensity... not to the point the RS did versus us and Arsenal... but just enough.

This is me banging on about my main Martinez worry again, I know... that the strict sticking to his principles of pass pass pass to infinity is making Martinez just as inflexible in his own way as OFM, TGT was in his.

We've played (aka passed) better and got nothing before now. We were out-passed by Swansea but – thanks to 'a 5-min spell' of the merest hint of intensity – we were, if not home and hosed, across the line with enough to spare, just.

Keep them guessing, Bobby... whatever the footballing reverse of 'all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy', we need a bit of that.

If you have to sacrifice a little principle, well... tough; I'm not asking you to eat shit by the bucket load... but the odd spoonfull now and then won't hurt you and is character building.

A word about Osman.... personally, I was amazed when he was brought on. He proved my fear right by doing nothing and looking too lightweight against players who were playing for their lives in the PL. McGeady was a bit of a handful so I am surprised he was taken off. Good decision to bring on Naismith when he did as, if nothing else, he is a gutsy fighter... good team man.

Coleman was one of the worst culprits for turning back towards his own penalty area and playing Stones into trouble. Funny how the best period came when the crowd got going and at the moment it must be extremely difficult for even the seasoned professionals to give of their best when some sections of the crowd are almost waiting for the players to make a mistake and jump on their back.

I’m glad we have two away games where hopefully the players can express themselves a little more. I also hope Roberto is strong-minded because he’ll need to be if he is ever to win the whole of the Goodison crowd over.

I understood when Mike Walker got a hard time because he wasn’t winning matches but Roberto is almost on a par with him as regards some of the crowd’s reaction to his style of play and their lack of support for the teams he sends out.

Seems that Mirallas is the "man they love to moan at" at the present time; well, not me. As Ken correctly mentions unpredictable Kev provided two assists.... in a 3-2 win, I reckon Kev clearly wins the STFU stakes over the moaners.

And YES, his lack of finish after an excellent breakaway run was bloody disappointing.

I thought Lukaku was well worth his goal. There was room for improvement all round without anyone needing to be singled out, BUT... if the Park End consider that an occasional baiting of away fans and "Only Sing When We're Winning" constitutes support, then they might as well fuck off to the Street End were a strict code of complete silence for 90+ minutes is religiously observed EVERY week.

Call yerselves Evertonians? Make some bloody ENCOURAGING noise... Go on, I dare ya!

They have also scored 20 plus goals, been involved in some brilliant team displays, had moments of individual brilliance and generally shone all season long. They all gave great talent and will be regular internationals no doubt.

Stones has had to cover players with 10 years more experience than him and acquitted himself well. And we all know if David Moyes had remained manager they would have not even have got a regular game.

I wasn't thrilled with some games this season. Swansea and Cardiff have been hard work, but fair play to RM; he has given youth its head. That is one of the things I admire about him the most tbh. So give stick to the manager and the senior players – that's fair enough when they deserve it – but let's back the young players.

Patrick, Your excuses for this manager, and the mounting number of dull and insipid performances we are suffering, grow more desperate by the game. Every time we play badly, you want to point the finger at the players, maybe it's because you have realised that, although the team has often been changed, the manager has been a constant. You have recently turned your attentions to blaming... the crowd?

Martinez is at a club who operate at a higher level than he had previously been used to, The GP faithful are not "just happy to be here" and will not recreate the happy clapping days he enjoyed from the 8,000 faithful as Wigan manager. If he wants to generate the bear pit atmosphere The Old Lady is renowned for, he needs to introduce an element of surprise, excitement, passion... entertainment – and, if the players are not doing it, it is HIS job to inspire... That's what he is paid to do.

I really don't get why somebody who can continually exonerate a guy who gets paid millions to excite/entertain, should turn his attentions to the very people who pay those wages. Why? For expressing their displeasure at feeling short changed.

This crowd doesn't need much to get it going... but it needs more than this.

True, his progress has been hindered by a sequence of injuries and he’s still a young man. But he’s eons behind Rooney at the same age and, although a player of different qualities, no more advanced than Rodwell was.

Don’t get me wrong: he’ll serve us well... but – whether it’s here or elsewhere by way of sale – I don’t see him as the’ wonder boy’ we all thought him to be!

I agree. In fact, I was surprised at how many we had forward and staying forward at times (not tracking back) – three, even four players at times; and surprised how deep the back line stayed for much of the time (Stones trying to call them out).

Those two things combined left only three or even only two in midfield, chasing shadows because of the big spaces left between the back and front lines

Was that Roberto's dictat? Or players not playing to orders? If the latter, I'm surprised he didn't fix it. Well, surprised he didn't fix it either way.

Didn’t I read on here that Bobby thinks so much of him, he wants to bring him back? Surely you are not querying our man’s judgement in the transfer market, are you?

There has been some rumours of him already being linked to other clubs and that worries me far more than how worried I was this time last year when the Moyesiah was planning his leaving.

I guess we will see over the next nine games. We certainly have ground some results out at GP in the last couple of months; however, it is not been the same story away from home.

Martinez is being his normal positive self in front of the cameras but I would be surprised if he is not a little concerned about performances of late.

We have some tough fixtures at home coming up and points will be hard to come by unless our performances improve markedly. Just say we only picked up another nine points, how much progress would that amount to?

I thought Kev had one of his worst games for a good while... (and I'm being kind there).

There were fleeting moments, were I thought we were going to get on top, and stay there for a while. It never happened, and it was white knuckle stuff all the way.

If it was one poor performance and the right result, I wouldn't be worried; however, if we play like we have over the last few games on Tuesday – we will get beat!!

I see a scenario where he departs for Barcelona just as Man Utd tell Moyes ’enough is enough’. Then ’The Blood Brothers’ re-unite and we’re lumbered with the ’Dour One’ for another 10 years.

Cue for me, at least, to go back to following Marine!

The MotD continental 'expert' made a good point I thought when he said that the difference between good players and 'great' players is their belief in themselves. He cited Messi and Ronaldo but above all Ibramovic who has turned into a great player as a reflection of his own self-image. If Ross can nurture this sort of arrogance and self-belief, I think he will become a true great — hopefully for Everton, but definitely in the English game.

I too share your fear Ross might not end up being as good as we all hope. But I think it is harsh to judge him yet. He has hit a dip in form but that's not unusual for a young player in his first season.

I think we saw enough early in the season to see the potential but it will all come down to how he learns and develops. His biggest issue at the moment seems to be to know where to play and where not and to move the ball quickly. There was an audible groan in the second half yesterday as he slowed another attack down and turned backwards.

I don't think the media hype helps either. Last night's caption on MotD said 'Barkley brilliance' which showed his nice piece of skill for the pen, a blocked shot and a header from two yards. Hopefully he's not going to buy it and realise where he needs to improve.

His strength is running on the ball and it's that ability that won us the penalty but his passing, tackling, positioning, anticipation and decision-making all need to improve if he's to be as good as we think he could be.

Hopefully as he's young, these attributes will develop but I've not seen much evidence of it so far this season.

It has been clear for a while now that there is a hole in the middle that teams are taking advantage of. It's partly shape and partly personnel, but it's a problem. If you look at the currently successful teams, they build attacks from deep, quickly and in numbers.

Ken – I can't agree with your view of Stones. Yes, I'm sure he will mature into a very good player. But he was terrible yesterday – just out of his depth. The return of Jagielka will be a major boost.

I thought he showed a few flashes yesterday... but MotM, really?

Tim Howard all day long.

They have had a number of seasons to create a side which can play this way and Roberto has had 8 months — there lies the difference. Give him a couple of seasons and the finished article will look a lot different to what we did yesterday.

Their wide men Dyer and Routledge continually gave them width whereas we tended to try to run down the middle and when those two got the ball they looked to play others into space. Aiden tried to do this but Kevin had one of those days when nothing would stick.

Add Bony (who I thought was excellent and thank god they took him off) and they had a striker who held the ball and laid it off, which Lukaku did for the first 10 minutes and then reverted to trying to run through the defence on his own. We all have our off-days and with Tim in form we did enough to win( just).

These young players will be so much better again next season but Swansea showed me that at the moment we have one or two square pegs in round holes and that is no one's fault — the manager has to be given time.

Oh, and the crowd was deathly quiet yesterday — which comes first: The duty of the players to rouse the crowd? Or the crowd to rouse the players?

As for the way we're playing at the moment, RM has come out to say we didn't play well and there were issues with the performance, but I think any new manager of our club deserves patience to put his plan into action. That patience should be even more forthcoming when results and league position are actually very good.

Personally I think our team plays like its trying to learn a new system and isn't quite getting it. Perhaps a few of the players are incapable, not just slow to learn. We look too slow in our decision-making and understandably nervous when things aren't going to plan.

If we look at Swansea, individually, their players are not as good, but they work better as a team. They are reaping the rewards of what RM put in place many years ago and look far more comfortable with what they're meant to be doing.

I think if we give RM the time, and he decides to stay, he'll end up getting us playing in the same way.

When Moyes was here, people were saying he was a very good manager, he was given last season's best team, a vast pot of cash and RM is still managing to outperform him and Spurs and Newcastle, all of whom consistently out-spend us.

We're still in the running for 4th place too, especially if Arsenal implode. That's an amazing performance for a new manager in his first season, having to deal with all the shit that he's had to deal with and not really having any cash to buy quick solutions to problems.

Barkley may not be a complete player yet, but he has strength and pace and directness. It was those attributes which won us the pen, something Osman would never have been able to do. Add Barkley's goal into the mix and I think his selection was entirely justified.

If anyone from that team deserves to be singled out to be replaced, I think it is Mirallas. Despite his two assists (one from a corner), I thought he was probably the worst of the bunch, and crucially, someone we have a quality like-for-like replacement for, off the bench.

Yesterday to me showed the lack of quality between defence and attack. Passing the ball around between players is okay if the movement is going forward but, with nobody to play the quick through-ball, it allows the opposition to get back into coverage, break up the attack, and break out quickly.

People saying the difference between from the end of December to the present day Everton performances have deteriorated should really look at the opposition managers that have spotted the way Everton play and the slow build-up of play.

Priority: a quality midfielder. Good strikers can't score unless they are provided by quick defence-splitting passes.

We have a formation that appears to be attacking but rarely do we seem to apply it. My seat is roughly on the half-way line and throughout most of the game it was a line of Lukaku, Barkley, McGeady and Mirallas up front with NONE of them closing down or tracking back, especially in the wide areas. A couple of quick passes and half our players were taken out of the game. Baines and Colman were continually exposed with both their widemen miles away

Apparently, in a recent interview Lukaku said that RM had told him to concentrate on his attacking play rather than the defencive side. Yesterday it showed all afternoon, not least with their equaliser, when he was caught ball watching. The better clinical teams will murder us if we continue to play this way.

City's Revie plan; our own Twin Centre-Halves; Alf Ramsey's Wingless Wonders; The Flat Back 4; Holland's Total Football; and so on and so forth. Managers are constantly trying new ideas yet we still see remnants of those bygone styles today.

It is most important not to slavishly follow a style that is past its "Use by" date. I think Barcelona's method, If not completely at its UBD, is showing signs of tiredness.

Those earlier styles had their few years of glory only to be discarded when newer versions were developed. I hope Roberto is not putting all his eggs in a basket that has had its day.

Darren's right; rather than criticise the paying crowd, let's give a bit of passion and pace to get the them excited.

I hope the people who have been spouting about 'winning football' rather than 'tippy-tappy shite' are enjoying themselves.

I'm greedy – I want winning football that's good to watch. At the moment we're getting (at home) one and not the other.

Surely it should be better than this?

My criticism of the Martinez’s ’philosophy’ of ticca-tacky was always a belief that if you don’t ’mix it up’ a bit you will soon get sussed – and so it has proved.

Only a fool would claim Everton have not been more attractive to watch and our man could do worse than look across the park to see how varying tactics according to the opposition can pay huge dividends.

Of course, it does help if you have a dynamic midfield and a couple of strikers who seem capable of scoring at will!

Under previous managers they lost.

".....those who know....."

As the managers are payed to study their opposition, I think there are three areas of concern with Everton: (1) slow build-up; (2) poor marking from free kicks; and (3) poor attacking ideas from corners and free-kicks.

I imagine he's slowly putting his ideas into place, while keeping us hard to beat; after all, isn't that what we've been about for the last 20 years?

He knows he needs a good first season, so he can't rip up our defensive solidity, or take us into the bottom half as a personal experiment. He needs to win the crowd over, make the players believe in his methods and make sure we achieve a top 6/7 finish. That's not an easy task in his first season.

Judging by some of the comments on here, he's completely justified in slowly changing tack – football fans are not a patient lot and I think he's fully aware of that.

I expect a huge improvement next season, once he's shown a top 6 finish is easily within his capability, he will have gained a lot of trust with that achievement.

You could have written that word-for-word this time last year, Mr Hind, but you chose not to. I wonder why?

This group of players were improving already; we had improved our points total two years running, despite being handicapped by an overly negative manager... so, in a year when the majority of teams have struggled with their own transition, we were surely expected to improve?

If, as many of us believe, the last guy held us back, is it not logical to assume things would improve when he had gone?

I don't agree with your "happier Evertonian" claim either. There was genuine excitement when Martinez was first appointed, but it's slowly turning to disappointed silence, The football we are witnessing maybe vastly different to the percentage shite we suffered under Moyes, but it's even more defensive and desperately boring. That's why, week-in & week-out, the place is like a morgue.

I sit 14 rows back in the Main Stand and – not for the first time – I could hear the players talking to each other. That can't be right?

The ball is still in Robbie's court for the remainder of the season. He can rouse Evertonia by sending his troops out on a mission to qualify for the Champions League, playing with purpose, desire and passion – or, as Jose would put it, "to kill" – or, he can continue along the cautious path and risk being damned by increasingly faint praise, from an ever-quieter Goodison Park.

Wonder no longer mate. The answer is simple, I only starting posting this season. However, I was still saying it. Sorry.

My opinion is RM won't get much patience compared to what the other fella got. As I mentioned, I recall that season: three wins in the first nine league games, it was dire. I hated going to Goodison, my mates were leaving at half-time for the pub and others packed their season tickets in, yet still cried "Be careful what you wish for" from their pub seats.

The highlight after a derby victory was Tim Howard's goal against Bolton, there was no big atmospheres, the gates where down... However, he played it clever, telling us not to expect anything. At least RM is trying to rouse the fan base, telling us we can achieve things.

We're lying in 5th position... not bad. is it? But that's not good enough: we have to be entertaining as well now... you don't want much, do you!

The obvious answer is give RM better quality players, then we might be able to get the results and entertain at the same time.

It's been a very good start... but it also could have been better.

We are not a top 4 side and have not been for a long time. The current top 4 have spent hundreds of millions getting to where they are and Everton do not have that sort of money and are likely to not have that sort of money for the foreseeable future.

In addition, both Spurs and Man Utd have spent big and are likely to do so next season, whoever the managers of those clubs are.

I think we will finish 5th or 6th which means Europe, for good or bad.

Everton do very well to continue to get into the finishing positions they do in the league despite their financial situation. I think this is a possible explanation for the lack of belief from the TV commentators that we will get into Europe.

Sometimes I think it would be better for all our blood pressures if Everton did not almost break that glass ceiling; the frustration would be less.

I guess we’ve got a bit of a cheek to expect miracles with this Board in charge!

But the battle for sixth is on......and it’s a Bobby v Moyes head to head.

I am for what it's worth an ever-present on the box – 37-inch HD. Thanks to NBC! – and from what I can glean, see, feel, and hear, what you identify as this season's issue has been the issue at The Old Lady for much of its Prem period.

I didn't miss a home game in the '90s. I can't think of a single season when the Old Lady rocked all the way through. Instead, as seems to be the rule of thumb with us, we get loud and proud for the big ones but in the hum-drum run-of-the-mill matches there are nearly always patches when you can hear the proverbial pin drop – unless we are dealt a bitter blow – e.g. Sunderland on Boxing Day – or some sort of fight back is on and then there's noise in the air.

So, to ascribe this noise or lack of issue to this or that issue or this and that gaffer is somewhat misleading in my view. Is it worth pointing out that there has not been a time this season that plummets to the depths of Ginger's dog days? Not sure or what that might mean.

And DH, you're putting words in my mouth: can't read where I said we never did happy-clap the last one or we are "happier" (although this last is true I feel). To say there have not been times this season – the implication of your comparison – when we have not "occasionally play[ed] with genuine raw passion and conviction and the place would be rocking" is just plain wrong.

Now I don't unfortunately have your "week-in-and-week-out" seat at the match these days but I think to call the Old Lady a "morgue", "week-in-and-week-out" is stretching a point – embellishment and touches of exaggeration to make a point are par for the course but that is a misrepresentation.

There's something in what you say about the dissipation of August glee but that quite frankly was always inevitable and quite frankly I don't feel it that much on these boards except for a select few.

Don't confuse the age-old Old Lady "selective" atmosphere thingy with withdrawal of support for the gaffer or some sort of sinking feeling that after all things are not that different from the last one. No. Each one of my thirty or so season-ticket holding mates all feel exactly the same: things are different, things are better, there is a different attitude when the "big-boys" turn up, we have a more interesting tactician in the hot seat.

Yep things have not been as good as before Crimbo (isn't that an Everton thing – the half-season thing – hope not?) but we feel a damn-sight better than this time last season in this time of transition and are really looking forward to totting up our best ever Prem points tally, to next season, and to Euro games under the floodlights.

There has been improvement this season and it's sort of interesting that you – DH – produce as evidence of pre-RM improvements on point tallies because on that score we are a much better team this season and a little uncertain and in the fog about the next "transition" in your argument – "If, as many of us believe, the last guy held us back, is it not logical to assume things would improve when he had gone?" I thought that you had been around longer than this season. Anyway I'll see you at the return of Ginger!

I don't think I 've heard anyone call for top four AND entertaining football, Either one would be very nice.

I didnt buy into the "relative success" that was often spoken about during the past decade and I 'm not buying now. These players are good enough to at least make challenge for champions league place. The fact that its still achievable despite throwing away several key game at the death, proves that.

We are forced to try to do it on the cheap, which invariably means poorer quality players.

There are always if and but games each season, the better quality players have the ability to pull games out of the fire, its precisely why they cost so much.

If we can regain our attacking form from earlier in the season, and tighten up the back, fifth is ours for the taking.

All to play for, but to have a chance both players and manager need be better. If we deem 5/6th to be acceptable. Thats as good as it gets.

Dont think I could go through another regime like that

If we can tighten up at the back (and stop losing easy set piece goals) then we could finish well. We need to replicate the performances against Liverpool (home), Arsenal (league away), Man Utd, Spurs and Chelsea (away). If we play like yesterday or against Cardiff, then we will drop like a stone. I hope it is the former.

Seems like RM is determined to give Stones plenty of game time for him to develop for the future.
Problem is he's still lots to learn and continues to be off the pace for me.
Although I thought all our defenders had poor games yesterday!

Maybe Alcaraz is still troubled by niggling injuries, I don't think were being given the full story as far as he is concerned.