The Everton Academy is on the up

By the way, although James Garner never won all his earlier caps for England at a lot of levels, he did win a few at U21 with Everton, including a major trophy. Mind you, he was coached at a young age at a different club.

What I don't understand is how some young players simply disappear, and I wonder whether this is to do with application and character rather than their football skills? We, the fans, also have a part to play, especially if and when one of the young players gets an opportunity to play, as they will make mistakes and, if the team is struggling, this can be problematic.

One thing I have noticed is that young Armstrong has only been getting 20-minute appearances as a substitute for Preston and I think he has yet to play a full game. Maybe their caution will prove to be good for his development?

In some ways, I look to foreign countries for inspiration. For example, Rennes has an academy that has churned out an almost unprecedented level of talent over the last 5 or 6 years. How do they manage this without spending the sort of money that Man City or Chelsea do?

Top class facilities and coaching are of course important but perhaps more so is being able to provide genuine pathways.

Dave # 1, I'm not sure who our better coaches are? We only see the end of a conveyor belt (U18s and U21s) when a lot of the hard work is being done from around age 6. Ajax always worked on the basis that technique must be mastered by age 8.

There's not a lot an U21 coach can do if they inherit a group of players age 16 or 17 who haven't been coached well until that point. Conversely, it's easy to look like a good U21 coach if you inherit a quality group of players.

As Robert said, Gordon was the last one. I think Rooney and Jeffers have been the last 2 who came through the academy and, like Gordon, both were sold.

I would really like to know how come Robbie Fowler, who as a kid was a Blue and actually wore his Everton kit under his training top when he first joined their academy, and Michael Owen, whose Dad played for our reserves, both joined Liverpool?

Also, they reckon Steve McManaman was a Blue as a kid.

So, if we can't attract young talented kids from our own city who started life following Everton, then what hope have we of developing our own youngsters?

Hs teams play like robots with sideways and backward passing going nowhere. Last time they interviewed for new coaches, admittingly under the surveillance of Mrs Barrett-Baxendale, they said Tait was much the best coach interviewed. They never mentioned any of the other coaches who had applied.

You can't tell me that kids who have been in the Academy from 6 years of age and still can't understand the basics of football, control, passing and dribbling at 16!

Well the coaches who've been teaching them for all these years certainly need a good coat of looking over, a lot of them are allowed to learn all these years by using one bleedin' foot!

I like McNeil, by the way, but what a player he would have been if he could use both feet.

- Davies
- Barkley
- Rodwell
- Anichebe
- Hibbert
- Osman
- Rooney
- Jeffers
- Ball
- Dunne

Some good players and big fees amongst that lot.

Those who played a few games include:

- Simms
- Kenny
- Vaughan
- Cadamarteri
- Unsworth

Others have done well in careers in lower leagues and some even made it back to the Premier League, like Lundstram, Forshaw and Broadhead.

With investment, we should do better, and catch up with the best academies. It'll take a little while though. The Man City academy is relatively young but now world class. And as Sam says, there are foreign clubs going great things in this area.

I'm not sure who Fowler supported as a kid or Owen who lived in Chester, so could have supported Liverpool Man Utd or Everton but McManaman and his dad were rabid Blues,

Howard Kendall, when Everton's manager, offered him a 1-year scholarship; whoever was in charge of Liverpool's youth system at the time offered him a 3-year deal — his dad had no difficulty choosing which deal to take.

Him and McManaman used to wear Everton tops under their training kits to wind up Ronnie Moran.

Everton weren't interested in Fowler until his mid teens whereas Liverpool had been all over him from a young age. They also helped the family out with grocery money etc to build him up. Everton did similar to McManaman and offered him a poorer 'take it or leave it' deal.

You'd have only had to watch both as youngsters for 20 minutes (I played against McManaman up until 16 -- couldn't get near him) to know they'd both make it.

He wasn't happy I'd put it to him. There was a lot of swearing. McManaman stepped in to save my skin. He didn't deny it, though.

I also knew a few Evertonians who signed for Liverpool, few got past the Central League side in the late '60s, but it was easier to get a trial there as Shankly's attitude was almost that you got one for just turning up with your boots.

Remember the story about Chris Lawler who used to clean boots, which was a common practice for apprentices, and Shankly asked him what he was employed for and when told Shankly told him to get on the bus he was here to learn and train.

I'm not sure what Harry Catterick's view was as he rarely said much but he wasn't frightened to give the kids a go.

Oh, and Antonee Robinson seems missing from above lists.

Owen actually grew up in Hawarden in North Wales, where his family still live.

Weirdly, for such a small village, it produced Owen, our very own Gary Speed; Barry Horne and Ian Rush both played for the village team, Hawarden Rangers, plus Kevin Ratcliffe grew up in Mancot (which is the next village along).

Owen actually grew up in Hawarden in North Wales, where his family still live.

Weirdly, for such a small village, it produced Owen, our very own Gary Speed; Barry Horne and Ian Rush both played for the village team, Hawarden Rangers, plus Kevin Ratcliffe grew up in Mancot (which is the next village along).

If you look at the last 20 years of our own academy players that played in the junior International ranks then the vast majority ended up struggling to break through. I'd say only Rooney, Barkley and Gordon have gotten anywhere close to excelling. Rodwell and Davies promised much but delivered little. Then there's the shrewd acquisitions of young players who tasted first-team football elsewhere - like Gosling, Lookman, DCL, Branthwaite, Ben Godfrey and Holgate (those last 2 the opposite of shrewd on recent years showings).

But the list of academy youngsters who picked up (often) numerous junior international caps but then never kicked on at the top level is huge; Peter Clarke, Lee Molyneux, Daniel Fox, Morgan Feeney, Hallam Hope, John Paul Kissock, George Green, José Baxter, Chris Long, Jonjoe Kenny, Callum Connolly, Liam Walsh, John Lundstram, James Wallace, Luke Garbutt, Ryan Ledson, Kieran Dowell, Anthony Evans, Conor Grant, Nathan Holland, Joe Williams, Dennis Adeniran - as well as Fraser Hornby (Sco), Nathan Broadhead (Wal), Harry Charsley (NI), Shayne Lavery (NI), Courtney Duffus (RoI), and David Henen (Bel).

For what it is worth I've only seen Douglass Lukjanciks (once, and he didn't have a good game) and Harrison Armstrong (a few games, very neat and tidy) - the others I couldn't pick out of a line-up and - no disrespect - I'm assuming you couldn't either. Whether these 15 and 16-year-olds have the potential to become first-team players at the top level is still incredibly hard to tell, but I'll definitely be waiting to see them play with my own eyes before touting them for success or failure.

One thing may help us retain the likes of Samuel Smith and attract other good kids going forward: opportunity. Two years ago much was made of the RS u21 under Klopp. Despite getting a few unwarranted early England caps, Slot has other ideas. The current RS starting 11 has zero English players. Even with injuries Slot has generally preferred to play a Hungarian midfielder at RB over Bradley. Spurs now only have Spence as an English starter. City at best use 3 English at any one time. Arsenal aside from Rice have four English battling others for two starting positions. Chelsea have Palmer and a CB. James barely gets a start. So if players see that they can get opportunities here they may be more inclined to come and stay rather than win the u21 league with the RS, sit on the bench for 2 years then be flogged off to Sheff Utd.

I’ve made this point before and I’ll made it again in reference to Danny O’Neill’s hero. Sheedy said he viewed his job as ensuring every kid had the chance to develop as best as possible and to have the best career they could — at whatever club that might be. Ergo not necessarily Everton. He was the under 16 coach when our last crop of several decent players came through: Dowell, Walshe, Kenny etc. However, under Steve Walsh we started giving Unsie a transfer budget and buying 19 year olds from elsewhere, playing overage players and chasing the EPL2 trophy like it was a major honor. In other words, results were key versus player development. We seem to have the same mantra now except Tait hasn’t funds to recruit guys who are good enough to win at under 21 level like Bowler, Gibson etc but not good enough to go to the next level. So it’s good we aren’t wasting money on such players but the way we play is still pragmatic dull and result focused instead of development focused. I honestly couldn’t care less if we came bottom in the under 21 league if we produced one good player. Instead we get promising 16 year olds like Warrington, Whitaker etc then seem to stifle them by concentrating on pass completion stats and safety first dull football. Then they devolve and are a packed off to league one teams.

Andrew # 16, yes as you point out, getting recognition for England youth teams does not guarantee success by any stretch. Most clubs have a long list of players capped who fall away. The much, much shorter list is of academy players who make it to a Premier League first team after not getting any England etc youth recognition (without dropping down the leagues to rise again). Try to find a player who falls into that category. I’d be interested who you come up with.

And if, as has been the case recently, you have almost no representation - it’s not a good sign. The professional scouts are telling you something. Which is why this recent development is a good sign.

It’s also interesting that you are not especially impressed with Armstrong but plenty of posters on here want him in the starting XI. I’d suggest this highlights that we ToffeeWebers may not be the best judge. I’ve deliberately parked my own view on these players therefore - some of whom I’ve not seen (like Gokah who has only just turned up and Doughty obviously who is only 15).

The ones who make it are the ones with the application and character. Desire is probably the best word to describe it.

Add to this. Decent salary for you? £50,000 a year? 40 years to get your pension and you have £2m from which you will have had to pay for mortgages, cars, holiday, kids, food etc. What takes you a lifetime, Branthwaite will earn in 5 months.

I looked up Lewis Gibson, late of this parish. Not picking on Lewis but simply as an example, he is earning £500,000 a year, 10 times what his mates could possibly hope to earn. No criticism of Lewis but with under-17, under-18 and under-20 caps and part of the side who lifted the FIFA U-17 World Cup in 2017 then his life is going to be very comfortable and so the necessity to take it to the next level, be it Premier League, International Caps will totally depend on his (and all his ilk) desire to work and work and work to get there. I heard from his shirt sponsor that after training Lukaku went home and watched videos of strikers. Which player says, yes I have trained for 3 hours, now I want another 2 hours of heading practice or shooting practice or passing a ball into a barrel 30 yards away? It is the mental determination to do that.

In my work I was told that the boss of Boursin (after we acquired them in the 1990s) mantra was what do we need to do today to make the product/company better. When you get to 20 and you are set for life - it is only fame and glory that will drive you on.

Oh and one forgotten above is Spitty. He was a blue and when cheered on a youth team coach that we had won was told in no uncertain terms to stop. All I will say is no son of mine would ever have been allowed to join their youth set up.

These were mostly the head down dribblers who can strike a ball well. Many of these kids lose interest because all they ever want to do is dribble and shoot almost as though it's an individual sport. Not interested in football as a team game. They just won't pass. By the time they get to 9 or so even if they are brilliant they can't dribble around a team and score so regularly. By 11 they make no impact on the game at all.

The ones who do well are those who understand how to play football as a team game and have good technique and / or good physical attributes. Also aggression and being able to cope with an aggressive game.

Probably some similar principles at play at a much higher academy level. You need a lot of different elements coming together to make it.

Of the bunch Olayiwola is the one I’ve seen the most in u17 tournaments, England u16 and our own u18s. None of these have been live, but they’re not difficult to watch if you want to.
At 16 Olayiwola is a class above our other midfielders, he’s got a box to box style and is capable scoring goals.

Rueben Gokah is a very tall but skinny centre back, you can’t mistake him if you see a team photo. So far he looks to have the right composure and size to develop well.

Nsangou is a well built, but not tall forward, at 15 he’s got time to grow. It looks like we’re fast tracking him as he’s trained with the first team and made his debut at u21s. We’ll be keen to get him on Scholarship terms and then as a pro at 17, so a clear pathway is necessary. He hasn’t been with us long so may not have significant loyalty, unlike Olayiwola who’s been with us since about 8-10 - look up “ Moston Tigers” and you’ll find him.

Very early days for all these, with no guarantees they’ll make our first team. Harrison Armstrong is in a different category, I’ve watched him scoring a hat trick as a forward midfielder for our u18s and last season play as a defensive midfielder in a poor Derby team, he’s an outstanding talent. No question in my mind he’s the best prospect we’ve had for years.

Michael Ball and Tony Hibbert never got any recognition as international youths.

More recently, Ellis Simms.

Ellis Simms proves my point also. He didn't make it at Everton and is now struggling for games at Coventry.

Yony Hibbert, you are right. Selected for an U21 squad but no caps. So he did buck the trend.

That's one player who debuted nearly 25 years ago.